2024-2025 Around the NBA Thread

[Hoop Head]

Reportedly, Derrick Rose gave up his entire remaining salary in the buyout with the Grizzlies.

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Even Derrick Rose wanted to get the hell away from Ja. Doesn't want to get brought in as an accessory next season.

 

[Mainstreet]

Even Derrick Rose wanted to get the hell away from Ja. Doesn't want to get brought in as an accessory next season.

It sure seems like point guard talent is more available this off season than ever before. I believe, Dennis Smith Markelle Fultz and Ish Smith are still available. Now Derrick Rose can be added to the list.

 

[Mainstreet]

Kevin Knox signs a one-year deal with the Warriors.

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[Ronin]

Evan Sidery

@esidery
·
48m

Thunder GM Sam Presti said today they will look to sign Alex Caruso to a long-term contract extension, once he becomes eligible for a four-year deal on December 21.Oklahoma City traded Josh Giddey to the Bulls for Caruso this summer.

 

[Hoop Head]

It sure seems like point guard talent is more available this off season than ever before. I believe, Dennis Smith Markelle Fultz and Ish Smith are still available. Now Derrick Rose can be added to the list.

I would support a Fultz signing if we weren't overloaded at PG/SG. He was a bust as a #1 overall pick but he showed some skills in Orlando, albeit taking a step back last season with Suggs taking a leap forward. I think Fultz can be a decent combo guard off the bench for someone.

The NBA is a copycat league. Most others took notice of what Minnesota did and also Dallas, Indiana, and others by moving away from small ball and heading more towards size since you can't really copy Boston's blueprint quickly but the others you can. The Celtics were the ultimate case of letting it play out, shuffling role players around their core pieces.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Every Suns fan should be happy if the Suns win a championship.

I wanted the Suns to trade for Durant, but the asking price was too steep. I think there were other avenues to get there because the Suns had expiring contracts and all their trade assets prior to the trade. Besides, the Nets may have lowered their price, although it might not have been until the summer.

I'm not sure the new NBA isn't about having two stars and a premium supporting cast.

Again, I viewed the Suns had two stars already in Booker and Bridges.

This is where we strongly differ. Yes, the NBA looks like you can have 2 stars a premium supporting cast and be a legit contender, but that’s only if one of those stars is a Generational Talent (Giannis, LeBron, Luka, Curry, Jokic, etc) and the other star is actually a star. Booker is not a generational talent and Bridges isnt a star. He’s a very good player, a great third banana, but nonetheless he’s never even been named to ONE All-Star team, never even sniffed an ALL-NBA team and for all the talk of his defense, he’s only made ONE defensive team in his six year career.

Making Booker/Bridges our “two stars” and surrounding them with “elite supporting cast” would be just as much of an exercise in futility as our current situation likely is. I really don’t think Booker/Siakam/Bridges or Booker/Markennan/Bridges are even close to being contenders.

With either one of those three combos, there isn’t a single player that is elite at anything… an anchor type player who can just regularly take over close games, making plays down the stretch for themselves and others. I thought KD was still that guy. I was wrong. But the Markennan version doesn’t have one of those guys and would be soft as tissue paper, while the Siakam version of the team would be better defensively, but still have no offensive identity and be older. For the Siakam version to work, we’d have to field a pretty damn incredible role player squad to try to emulate the exception to the rule type champions like the 2004 Pistons or last year’s Boston (who still had a younger and better 1/2 with Tatum/Brown). Even if they were trying to go the route of the great overall team ala the Pistons, they’d still need to find their Chauncey Billups a Rasheed Wallace and don’t forget, those Pistons teams DID have a generational talent on defense with Ben Wallace who was a game changer on that end.

I see those possible threesomes you listed as Sacramento-level squads that don’t have one guy who can completely control a game, that have to scratch to get into the playoffs… which is pretty much where we were last season.

I’m that, at last, you just stated what I asked a couple days earlier when you posted that you think we could have built a title contender around our “two stars” Booker/Bridges. We vehemently disagree about what title teams need as their absolute core stars to try to win year in, year out.

But to continue the discussion… can you give me comps to previous title contenders (they don’t have to be winners, just teams that generally made at Conference Title rounds) that had a Booker/Bridges-esque combo as the 2 star core you mentioned that had a great supporting cast around them?

 

[Cheesebeef]

It sure seems like point guard talent is more available this off season than ever before. I believe, Dennis Smith Markelle Fultz and Ish Smith are still available. Now Derrick Rose can be added to the list.

Man… we have a real difference in opinion over what equals “talent”.

 

[Cheesebeef]

It felt like James Jones was reluctant to make a trade to improve the team in the 2022-23 season, especially with Crowder out, because he was waiting on the Durant trade to happen.

IMO, he had been chasing it all season.

The Suns won 64 games in the 2021-22 season and 45 games the next season.

You’re kinda leaving a lot out of outcomes of that season, like becoming the laughingstock of the playoffs in 2022, CP3 falling apart and never coming back the same, as well as other issues with that last paragraph… but you know that by now.

 

[Covert Rain]

And that's not true. I'm still hoping for a title from this group but not a chance in hell that championship would make me think it was a smart trade. We overpaid by any measure I can think of. About the only thing that would change my position would be if it came out that there were actually deals on the table that came close to what we offered. AFAIC, we bought a nice Toyota Camry but we paid BMW X6 M prices.

I don't understand this mentality at all. Worth is determined by winning a title. If we win a title it's worth it. Period.

 

[Covert Rain]

Source? I'd like to see because everything public since the deal from Booker has been how much it hurt to see the Twins be dealt and how he wants to play with them again. I've never seen anything that suggests he was either pushing the team to make a big trade or that any price is worth paying, which is essentially what the discussion has become.

You can have all the personal reasons why you felt the Suns needed to make the KD trade, @Covert Rain but that doesn't mean they were up against a wall and HAD to do it. As far as the Ayton #1 pick thing, no has denied or tried to hide that they supported Ayton as the #1 pick. I was one of those people. I even started the thread to celebrate the #1 lottery pick and specifically mentioned Ayton as the "no brainer" pick the day we won the draft lottery. I've never backed off and tried to say I didn't or avoid admitting it ended up being the wrong pick. It's ok to admit when we're wrong. We're all wrong occasionally. I don't get the point in mentioning that. No one is still defending that Ayton was the right choice. Had we won the title in 2021 though, maybe our views change entirely.

Maybe we need 1Sun back to tell us how we're all wrong all the time to unite us again. Only joking about 1Sun, Good riddance.

I never said we were up against at wall. I am saying if we wanted to win a title, getting a #1 or at least someone close to that was necessary. No amount of tweaking was going to get us there.

 

[Covert Rain]

I'm only saying Kevin Durant didn't have to be the Suns "#1 or 1B" at the Nets asking price. IMO, we just disagree on how far the Suns should have gone to trade for him. Trading Bridges was a step too far for me.

In regard to drafting Ayton, I supported that and I was wrong.

Also in the 2018 draft I wanted McDonough to draft or trade for Shai, so Bridges was flying under my radar.

We all have differences of opinions and that is okay. The forum is for discussion.

I think you missed the point. People supported (not everyone) drafting Ayton because many believed he was franchise changer. Just because it didn't work out doesn't mean it "faded away".

 

[Yuma]

It seems like those who supported the Durant trade at the Nets asking price are fading away.

Just tried of arguing. And not having our point of view respected.

 

[Yuma]

I think you missed the point. People supported (not everyone) drafting Ayton because many believed he was franchise changer. Just because it didn't work out doesn't mean it "faded away".

I mistakenly thought BOTH Ayton and Lisa were the best two guys in the draft. I wanted the Suns to keep the first pick and try and move up and take BOTH. The viewpoint I think some of us saw, and perhaps it was now not relevant, is in the nearly 50 years the Suns were a franchise we never had that dominant player in the middle, and seemingly that seemed to get us every time. Heck it wasn't just herein this forum, I remember seeing a whole stadium cheer the pick! AZ as a whole was in on the Ayton pick. He was sort of one of our own having played at UofA. I remember talk radio the next day, and people were giddy!

 

[AzStevenCal]

I mistakenly thought BOTH Ayton and Lisa were the best two guys in the draft. I wanted the Suns to keep the first pick and try and move up and take BOTH. The viewpoint I think some of us saw, and perhaps it was now not relevant, is in the nearly 50 years the Suns were a franchise we never had that dominant player in the middle, and seemingly that seemed to get us every time. Heck it wasn't just herein this forum, I remember seeing a whole stadium cheer the pick! AZ as a whole was in on the Ayton pick. He was sort of one of our own having played at UofA. I remember talk radio the next day, and people were giddy!

Yeah I watched all of Ayton's games at UA and was well aware of his weaknesses and I'd read enough to accept that Luka was going to be special yet I still wanted us to draft DA. And for this very reason, we'd always been notoriously weak down low.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think you missed the point. People supported (not everyone) drafting Ayton because many believed he was franchise changer. Just because it didn't work out doesn't mean it "faded away".

I was referring to the Durant trade, but I think using the word "fading" was a poor choice.

What I meant, I think many posters are no longer enamored with the trade for Durant as the ultimate answer to compete for a title alongside Booker. The past two seasons have proved that.

Still, I have hope for the upcoming season with the Suns addition of two point guards and hopefully another rotation big man. The Suns have gotten stronger and I believe they now realize it takes more than three stars to win a title. It takes five starters and depth as well.

Likewise, I wanted the Suns to draft Ayton over Luka and that was a terrible mistake. I'm not fading away from that. It was a blunder.

If anyone continues to think trading for Durant at the Nets asking price was a good idea, so be it. Nothing would make me happier if the Suns won a title with or without him. Personally, I think the Suns overpaid.

 

[Gambler]

What I meant, I think many posters are no longer enamored with the trade for Durant as the ultimate answer to compete for a title alongside Booker.

I would fall into that category for sure.

 

[Covert Rain]

I was referring to the Durant trade, but I think using the word "fading" was a poor choice.

What I meant, I think many posters are no longer enamored with the trade for Durant as the ultimate answer to compete for a title alongside Booker. The past two seasons have proved that.

Still, I have hope for the upcoming season with the Suns addition of two point guards and hopefully another rotation big man. The Suns have gotten stronger and I believe they now realize it takes more than three stars to win a title. It takes five starters and depth as well.

Likewise, I wanted the Suns to draft Ayton over Luka and that was a terrible mistake. I'm not fading away from that. It was a blunder.

If anyone continues to think trading for Durant at the Nets asking price was a good idea, so be it. Nothing would make me happier if the Suns won a title with or without him. Personally, I think the Suns overpaid.

Should they be enamored with a trade that has not worked? I think that is the same with any draft, trade or free agent signing. When they work they work. When they don’t they don’t. Retrospectively using the words “fading way” is a weird way to describe how you analyze the results in any of the above I guess.

I supported picking Ayton with the #1 pick too. Nothing about that faded away. It simply didn’t work out.

 

[Mainstreet]

Should they be enamored with a trade that has not worked? I think that is the same with any draft, trade or free agent signing. When they work they work. When they don’t they don’t. Retrospectively using the words “fading way” is a weird way to describe how you analyze the results in any of the above I guess.

I supported picking Ayton with the #1 pick too. Nothing about that faded away. It simply didn’t work out.

In regard to the word "fading" I was talking about fan support for the Durant trade. Maybe the word "vanishing" would have been a better choice, but there is not much difference in the two words.

What I'm saying, there still seems to be some fan support for making the Durant trade, whereas most posters have moved on from the idea it was a good idea to draft Ayton.

IMO, including Bridges in the Durant trade was flat out wrong, no matter the Nets asking price.

I've read the Suns had to include Bridges to make the trade. Well, the Suns didn't have to make the trade or include Bridges.

 

[SirStefan32]

In regard to the word "fading" I was talking about fan support for the Durant trade. Maybe the word "vanishing" would have been a better choice, but there is not much difference in the two words.

What I'm saying, there still seems to be some fan support for making the Durant trade, whereas most posters have moved on from the idea it was a good idea to draft Ayton.

IMO, including Bridges in the Durant trade was flat out wrong, no matter the Nets asking price.

I've read the Suns had to include Bridges to make the trade. Well, the Suns didn't have to make the trade or include Bridges.

Some people keep saying this, but NO trade, Durant or otherwise, was happening without including Bridges. He was the only real asset Suns had. Very good defender, good shooter, doesn't miss games, doesn't have a glaring weakness. Nobody is trading a star for Cam Johnson and expiring Jea Crowder. Nets had zero interest in Ayton. Aging Chris Paul was simply not enough to push the Suns into the championship at that stage of his career. I love Booker and Bridges- Book is my favorite star and Bridges is my favorite role-player in the entire league, but those two are not winning you a championship. Suns had to make a big move, and there was no big move without including Bridges.

KD trade was a gamble that you have to take if you have the opportunity to do so. In my opinion, trading for Beal was a bigger mistake because he and Booker are essentially the same player, albeit Booker being a bit better. To be fair, the price was very low while the KD price was insanely high, but when it comes to the right fit, Beal trade was a bigger miss.

I am excited to see how this all works with legitimate point guards this year.

 

[elindholm]

Making Booker/Bridges our “two stars” and surrounding them with “elite supporting cast” would be just as much of an exercise in futility as our current situation likely is.

True, but the futility would be shorter-lived. Another point on which we disagree is how long the Suns are going to be paying the bill for the Durant trade. Once this last-ditch effort burns down, it will be a decade before the Suns are relevant again.

I really don’t think Booker/Siakam/Bridges or Booker/Markennan/Bridges are even close to being contenders.

With Markkanen, certainly not. With Siakam, I think it could have been possible. He's a dynamic threat on the offensive end and has made two All-NBA teams.

Defensively he's a question mark. You'd need a role-playing shotblocking center, a few more deadeye three-point shooters, and a dirtworker. And a legitimate PG, of course. Far-fetched, but no more far-fetched than the Durant fantasy was.

 

[JerkFace]

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[Cheesebeef]

True, but the futility would be shorter-lived. Another point on which we disagree is how long the Suns are going to be paying the bill for the Durant trade. Once this last-ditch effort burns down, it will be a decade before the Suns are relevant again.

With Markkanen, certainly not. With Siakam, I think it could have been possible. He's a dynamic threat on the offensive end and has made two All-NBA teams.

Defensively he's a question mark. You'd need a role-playing shotblocking center, a few more deadeye three-point shooters, and a dirtworker. And a legitimate PG, of course. Far-fetched, but no more far-fetched than the Durant fantasy was.

I disagree here slightly for a couple reasons. In order to build around a Booker/Bridges combo, we would have had to burn multiple first rounders to do to get a Markannen (a total exercise in futility) or Siakam (dealt for 3 first rounders I think). And as you mention they’d still need to deal for a bunch of really good role players in the Siakam scenario which would cost a first round pick or two (or nail the draft, which doesn’t seem like our strong suit). And Siakam is already 30 and not sure if a player averaging 22/5/8 is all that dynamic. But that ********* is a legit toss-up if it’s. a better nucleus than the current team and does have the added benefit for age and some assets to use to try and improve around them.

But the lack of relevance for a decade comment seems like a bridge too far. As we get further into the KD era and even afterward, future first round picks become available to trade for another impact player next to Booker. Also, say KD is gone in a couple seasons, huge cap space opens up for us to try and be a player in FA to pair with him. Is that likely? Not sure, but the idea that the Suns won’t be relevant until 2035 seems like an overreaction, IMO, without acknowledging assets and cap room that come available once KD is gone in a couple years.

All that said, it was still a bad trade and unless by some miracle this team comes together this season, we’d be in a slightly better position had we stayed out and could use Bridges and assets to trade for someone better than Booker to pair him up with.

 

[Hoop Head]

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WTF is ESPN doing? They lost Woj and now decided to fire Lowe? Their basketball coverage was finally improving and moving in a good direction for the first time in a decade or so, since Chad Ford and Hollinger left around when Bill Simmons started getting high on his own farts before leaving also.

 

[Covert Rain]

In regard to the word "fading" I was talking about fan support for the Durant trade. Maybe the word "vanishing" would have been a better choice, but there is not much difference in the two words.

What I'm saying, there still seems to be some fan support for making the Durant trade, whereas most posters have moved on from the idea it was a good idea to draft Ayton.

IMO, including Bridges in the Durant trade was flat out wrong, no matter the Nets asking price.

I've read the Suns had to include Bridges to make the trade. Well, the Suns didn't have to make the trade or include Bridges.

Isn’t that true of any move though that doesn’t turn out to be successful?!?

Also, Bridges was going to be included in any trade for a star.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Isn’t that true of any move though that doesn’t turn out to be successful?!?

Also, Bridges was going to be included in any trade for a star.

You’re missing Mainstreet’s main point… Booker is great enough to be a legit #1 and Bridges was a legit second star to pair with Book and we could have built a great team of depth around them which could have made the Suns contenders. I think that is really unrealistic as neither player is a Generational Talent and Bridges isn’t even an All-Star level player, but that’s Mainstreet’s argument.