10 thoughts - training camp

[Stout]

...and it isn't the only thing that was in our offseason.

We got rid of our GM and HC which I can confidently say that most people here think is the right move.
We seemingly drafted well, but like all draft picks, it is yet to be determined. Although at least two of them has earned nationwide media attention.
We picked up a lot of draft capital to help us in future years.
The locker room culture has appeared to change according to everyone involved with the team.

There are some reasons to have optimism, even if we didn't sign any marquee free agents this year.

No no, that's not what happened. We didn't sign long-term FAs of any kind this offseason. Full stop.

 

[Garthshort]

No no, that's not what happened. We didn't sign long-term FAs of any kind this offseason. Full stop.

For a rebuilding team, I like that strategy.

 

[Stout]

For a rebuilding team, I like that strategy.

Wasting the opportunity to add good young building blocks? Sure fire path to success there.

 

[Garthshort]

Good? Young? Building Blocks? Must have missed those guys.

 

[Stout]

Good? Young? Building Blocks? Must have missed those guys.

We certainly did miss on them.

 

[Garthshort]

We certainly did miss on them.

And in particular??

 

[Stout]

And in particular??

No one in particular. But I know this "but who would you have signed?" schtick. Unless you're seriously going to contend there were literally no good young FAs that could have helped us in FA, it is futile.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

For a rebuilding team, I like that strategy.

Exactly.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Wasting the opportunity to add good young building blocks? Sure fire path to success there.

We certainly did miss on them.

For starters, 'good young building blocks' is subjective. What exactly does that mean to you? How do you quantify? I'm sure it means different things to different people.

Also, for the large majority, I don't think you get those guys in free agency. You get them in the draft. If a player is a young building block, teams usually don't hit free agency. If they do, there's either an injury history, locker room issue, contract dispute etc. Plus, there's usually only 1-3 of these per FA period. So be prepared to spend, and spend big.

That is also why it is so critical to hit in the draft. The more draft picks you have, especially high ones, the higher success of getting one of those building blocks.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

No one in particular. But I know this "but who would you have signed?" schtick. Unless you're seriously going to contend there were literally no good young FAs that could have helped us in FA, it is futile.

I did the exercise of looking at the top 50 free agents according to the NFL website. There was one guy that I think deserved a long term deal that was also good enough to survive a rebuild of 2+ years. (including this one) That person was Javon Hargrave (DT) and he got a 4 year 80M contract. The rest were at the safety position, (which you could argue is our deepest position at the moment) or players 30 and above. (which I think we can both agree would not be considered 'good young)

 

[Cardsmasochist]

Quick question: Did the Cardinals retain the old scouting staff with the regime change?

 

[kerouac9]

Quick question: Did the Cardinals retain the old scouting staff with the regime change?

As far as we can tell right now, most of the previous regime scouts are still here, and very few new folks have come on board:

Quentin Harris, VP Player Personnel (16 seasons with AZ, current pos since 2021)
Matt Harriss, Director, Football Administration (5 seasons with AZ, current pos since 2019)
Dru Grigson, Director, Player Personnel (16 seasons with AZ, current pos since 2021)
Glen Fox, Director, Pro Personnel (11 seasons with AZ, current pos since 2022)
Josh Scobey, Director, College Scouting (12 seasons with AZ, current pos since 2022)
John Mancini, National Scout (11 seasons with AZ, current pos since 2022)
Chris Culmer, Western Regional Scout (15 seasons with AZ, current pos since 2009)
Luke Palko, Eastern Regional Scout (15 seasons with AZ, current pos since 2014)
Zac Canty, Central Regional Scoutv (12 seasons with AZ, current pos since 2022)
Alfonza Knight, Area Scout (10 seasons with AZ, current pos since 2018)
Keegan Leyrer, Area Scout (5 seasons with AZ, current pos since 2019)
Darius Vinnett, Area Scout (11 seasons with AZ, current pos since 2017)
Alex Valles, Area Scout (3 seasons with AZ, current pos since 2022)
Zach Devlin, Area Scout (7 seasons with AZ, current pos since 2021)
Andrew Caskin, Pro Scout (5 seasons with AZ, current pos since 2021)
Chad Jenkins, Scout (6 seasons with AZ, current pos since 2021)

Assuming many of these guys are on two-year contracts, it's possible that we'll have a real bloodletting next year.

 

[Cardsmasochist]

As far as we can tell right now, most of the previous regime scouts are still here, and very few new folks have come on board:

Quentin Harris, VP Player Personnel (16 seasons with AZ, current pos since 2021)
Matt Harriss, Director, Football Administration (5 seasons with AZ, current pos since 2019)
Dru Grigson, Director, Player Personnel (16 seasons with AZ, current pos since 2021)
Glen Fox, Director, Pro Personnel (11 seasons with AZ, current pos since 2022)
Josh Scobey, Director, College Scouting (12 seasons with AZ, current pos since 2022)
John Mancini, National Scout (11 seasons with AZ, current pos since 2022)
Chris Culmer, Western Regional Scout (15 seasons with AZ, current pos since 2009)
Luke Palko, Eastern Regional Scout (15 seasons with AZ, current pos since 2014)
Zac Canty, Central Regional Scoutv (12 seasons with AZ, current pos since 2022)
Alfonza Knight, Area Scout (10 seasons with AZ, current pos since 2018)
Keegan Leyrer, Area Scout (5 seasons with AZ, current pos since 2019)
Darius Vinnett, Area Scout (11 seasons with AZ, current pos since 2017)
Alex Valles, Area Scout (3 seasons with AZ, current pos since 2022)
Zach Devlin, Area Scout (7 seasons with AZ, current pos since 2021)
Andrew Caskin, Pro Scout (5 seasons with AZ, current pos since 2021)
Chad Jenkins, Scout (6 seasons with AZ, current pos since 2021)

Assuming many of these guys are on two-year contracts, it's possible that we'll have a real bloodletting next year.

Was there not enough time to bring in a new scouting staff? Our drafts have been pretty horrible.

 

[kerouac9]

Was there not enough time to bring in a new scouting staff? Our drafts have been pretty horrible.

1) I don't think there's much difference between scouts
2) I'm guessing Michael put the clamps on the budget and a bunch of these guys are already under contract
3) Maybe Monti was willing to give them a chance and see how it worked

 

[Garthshort]

Was there not enough time to bring in a new scouting staff? Our drafts have been pretty horrible.

I don't know how good it was, but not many rated our last draft as horrible. And, if turns out to be horrible then there will be probably be a lot of changes in the scouting staff. If not horrible, fewer changes. Recent problems could be poor scouting OR poor coaching. JMO.

 

[kerouac9]

I don't know how good it was, but not many rated our last draft as horrible. And, if turns out to be horrible then there will be probably be a lot of changes in the scouting staff. If not horrible, fewer changes. Recent problems could be poor scouting OR poor coaching. JMO.

Well, it's obviously too soon to tell about the last draft, and Keim's drafts were often highly regarded in the immediate aftermath of draft day. You can't really judge a draft until after three years, IMO. The 2019 draft turned out pretty... okay?

Kyler Murray earned a big extension
Byron Murphy became an above-average starter
Andy Isabella busted
Zach Allen became an above-average starter
Butler sucked
Deionte Thompson was okay
KeeSean Johnson was okay

If three out of your four choices in the first two days of the draft are still starting games for you four years later, you had a pretty solid draft. You'd love to have a late-round pick like KeeSean Johnson or Lamont Galliard stick on the roster, but those are all lottery tickets, anyhow.

IMO, we're in our current state because we leveraged the 2020 draft class and because our pro personnel department stunk up the joint the past three or four years aside from wondering if it would be a good idea to pay J.J. Watt all the money.

 

[Stout]

I did the exercise of looking at the top 50 free agents according to the NFL website. There was one guy that I think deserved a long term deal that was also good enough to survive a rebuild of 2+ years. (including this one) That person was Javon Hargrave (DT) and he got a 4 year 80M contract. The rest were at the safety position, (which you could argue is our deepest position at the moment) or players 30 and above. (which I think we can both agree would not be considered 'good young)

I'm sorry, but the amount of verbal gymnastics this board does to justify Monti taking an absolute dump in FA is astounding. Like, literally, only one FA could have possibly helped our rebuild? Gimme a break, DCR. If you can't admit there were things we could've done that would've helped us in FA for our rebuild but Monti decided not to, I got nothing for ya. I'm not going to homer that hard. He clearly sat out FA going with cheap, one-year nothingburger contracts. Which get you nothingburger players.

I have little doubt that baby Dollar "Bill" had a large say in this strategy, if he didn't outright dictate it.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I'm sorry, but the amount of verbal gymnastics this board does to justify Monti taking an absolute dump in FA is astounding. Like, literally, only one FA could have possibly helped our rebuild? Gimme a break, DCR.

He has signed free agents. Just not ones you thought were worthy. Who's the one doing verbal gymnastics now?

If you can't admit there were things we could've done that would've helped us in FA for our rebuild but Monti decided not to, I got nothing for ya.

Could they have signed more players? Sure. Would those players help them win maybe a game or two, it is absolutely possible. Would it have been in the best interest of our team short term and long term to sign mid tier free agents in this class, debatable.

I'm not going to homer that hard. He clearly sat out FA going with cheap, one-year nothingburger contracts. Which get you nothingburger players.

I have little doubt that baby Dollar "Bill" had a large say in this strategy, if he didn't outright dictate it.

So is it the GMs fault, or the owners fault? If you think Bidwill had a large say, your distain seems to be focused on the wrong person.

 

[Chopper0080]

For a rebuilding team, I like that strategy.

Why? If the people who are making the decisions are the ones who will be in charge for the foreseeable future, why do you feel this is a good strategy?

 

[kerouac9]

Why? If the people who are making the decisions are the ones who will be in charge for the foreseeable future, why do you feel this is a good strategy?

The Cards are kind of in a no-man's land right now. If you agree with DCR's assertion that the Cards aren't going to try to be competitive until the 2025 season (this year and 2024 are rebuilding years), then it makes little sense to sign a high-value free agent right now, because the value they'll be providing through the first half of their contract is minimal at best (because the rest of the team is bad) or counter-productive at worst (because you want to maximize draft capital).

Ideally, you'd put that cap space into keeping young stars you expect to be reaching their peak in 2025. Right now, the only players of real value on the roster you're concerned about bidding after in free agency are Hollywood Brown and Isiah Simmons (the latter largely speculation and projection). Neither are probably cornerstones for the next Cards playoff team.

So what do you do? The best-case scenario is that you keep your powder dry, extend some of the one-year dudes you signed this offseason during the year if and when they prove themselves, and hope to get below-market deals done with maybe Marco Wilson and maybe Zaven Collins once the season is over.

That's what Philly's front office would do.

 

[Stout]

He has signed free agents. Just not ones you thought were worthy. Who's the one doing verbal gymnastics now?


Could they have signed more players? Sure. Would those players help them win maybe a game or two, it is absolutely possible. Would it have been in the best interest of our team short term and long term to sign mid tier free agents in this class, debatable.


So is it the GMs fault, or the owners fault? If you think Bidwill had a large say, your distain seems to be focused on the wrong person.

Ah, now we're revising. One-year wonders have zero to do with the much ballyhooed "rebuild." But now you want to count them toward the rebuild?

Who cares if any of those players would've helped them win a game or two this year? Again, moving the goal posts. We're talking about the rebuild. You're the one banging the drum that no FAs out there could possibly help our long-term rebuild (laughable, really, but it has to fit your narrative). Well, none of the ones we signed are going to do it, either.

As to your last question? The answer is yes. If Bidwill hired him under the remit of sitting out FA, then Bidwill is clearly at fault--as he so often is--and Monti is at fault because he willingly took the job under said remit. They would then both bear the blame. If this is none of Bidwill's doing but all Monti's plan? Then Monti is a fool. Progressively losing young talent while patently refusing to engage in avenues of gaining young talent isn't the way you re-build.

 

[Chopper0080]

Some things that I hear on this board that I struggle to understand.

1 - How inactivity is better than activity. The playing not to lose mentality.

2 - How player talent isn't more important than a GM or HC. We have worse player talent but are better off because we have an unproven GM and HC.

3 - How intentionally being a bad team benefits the Cardinals long-term. The Cardinals should waste a year of FA and player acquisitions, intentionally not improving the roster, and it will benefit the culture and organization in the future.

 

[Stout]

Some things that I hear on this board that I struggle to understand.

1 - How inactivity is better than activity. The playing not to lose mentality.

2 - How player talent isn't more important than a GM or HC. We have worse player talent but are better off because we have an unproven GM and HC.

3 - How intentionally being a bad team benefits the Cardinals long-term. The Cardinals should waste a year of FA and player acquisitions, intentionally not improving the roster, and it will benefit the culture and organization in the future.

Preach.

It simply astounds me how people will blindly declare nobody in FA could possibly have helped the long-term rebuild. Like, wow! Either the talent pool simply dried up or it's plain old narrative molding. Yeah, sure. Tell us another one, guys lol

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Ah, now we're revising. One-year wonders have zero to do with the much ballyhooed "rebuild." But now you want to count them toward the rebuild?

I'm not, and that is exactly WHY you sign these one year wonders. To have more flexibility in future years.

Who cares if any of those players would've helped them win a game or two this year? Again, moving the goal posts. We're talking about the rebuild. You're the one banging the drum that no FAs out there could possibly help our long-term rebuild (laughable, really, but it has to fit your narrative). Well, none of the ones we signed are going to do it, either.

I'm not moving the goalposts. If you are signing FAs for more than 2 year deals and aren't expecting them to advance your win totals, isn't that a signing failure?

I'm expected them to spend money NEXT FA, because of how they decided to approach free agency this year. At the moment, they are expected to roll about 25M in cap space to next year.

As to your last question? The answer is yes. If Bidwill hired him under the remit of sitting out FA, then Bidwill is clearly at fault--as he so often is--and Monti is at fault because he willingly took the job under said remit. They would then both bear the blame. If this is none of Bidwill's doing but all Monti's plan? Then Monti is a fool.

I want to be a fool like Monti too. Make millions of dollars and take on a challenge most people think would be miraculous to pull off.

Progressively losing young talent while patently refusing to engage in avenues of gaining young talent isn't the way you re-build.

I assume you are talking about Byron and Zach here. If you were Byron, would you want to stay here? He went to a team that will more than likely make the playoffs and possibly even a game or two in them. Hard choice, especially of the pay was equal. He also publicly spoke out about things like the NFL survey. No reason to speak out about it, if there wasn't a least some animosity there.

Zach's move is lateral at the moment in terms of winning prospects between the Broncos and Cards, but he went to where his former DC went. Also, not a big surprise.

Furthermore, failure to keep both of these two is just as much if not more on the previous regime than the current one. They may have made their mind up before the new staff were in place. No one knows for sure; it is all speculation.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Some things that I hear on this board that I struggle to understand.

1 - How inactivity is better than activity. The playing not to lose mentality.

Spending money on players just to spend is worse than inactivity.

2 - How player talent isn't more important than a GM or HC. We have worse player talent but are better off because we have an unproven GM and HC.

You need to have confidence in the GM/HC to acquire the player talent. Most here didn't think we had the right ones.

3 - How intentionally being a bad team benefits the Cardinals long-term. The Cardinals should waste a year of FA and player acquisitions, intentionally not improving the roster, and it will benefit the culture and organization in the future.

Being bad allows you to greatest chance stockpile franchise altering talent.

We went from having the first overall pick to winning 5, 8, 11 games.

You know what's worse than being really bad? Winning 5-6 games every year without the top tier talent to turn things around. Just look at our record in the late 90s into late 2000s.

2000 - 3-13
2001 - 7-9
2002 - 5-11
2003 - 4-12
2004 - 6-10
2005 - 5-11
2006 - 5-11
2007 - 8-8

None of those years were were closing to having the #1 pick and it shows.