2011 NBA FINALS: Dallas Mavericks Vs Miami Heat

Cheesebeef

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If LeBron is shrinking during Finals fourth quarters, I'd be very interested to see how he'd handle a finals game 7. Wade could bail him out though.

I REALLY want to see a Game 7 with these guys. it will be fascinating! don't care who wins, just want a Game 7.
 

desertdawg

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To me what I'm seeing is something similar to the earlier Miami Heat. The Meat we saw at the beginning of the season, they are all shook up. Mavs can snag it if it continues, Miami should beat them hands down but life is funny.
 

Cheesebeef

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and i don't buy that Miami needs role players... they got FORTY points off the bench tonight... and they they got 32 and 20 from two players in Game 4... biggest thing missing? Their freaking superstar "chosen one". If he doesn't go fourth quarter tortilla in the last four games, this series would be over already. they're losing this series because LeBron's pretty much sucked... the role players have gotten them to the finish line... LeBron just can't finish.
 

carey

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Great tweet from Skip Bayless after the game:

Mavs gave LeBron late layup - his only pts in 4th! He has now scored 11 total in the 5 4th q's!

That should end the Jordan / Kobe / LeBron debate for good. If anyone ever suggests that LeBron is as good as Jordan ever again just throw your hands up and walk away, delete them from twitter, change the station, de-friend them, remove them from your top-8, turn the radio off, or whatever you have to do because that person is a f'n moron.
 

desertdawg

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Great tweet from Skip Bayless after the game:



That should end the Jordan / Kobe / LeBron debate for good. If anyone ever suggests that LeBron is as good as Jordan ever again just throw your hands up and walk away, delete them from twitter, change the station, de-friend them, remove them from your top-8, turn the radio off, or whatever you have to do because that person is a f'n moron.
+1
 

AzStevenCal

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I aint celebrating or gloating until dallas wins game 6 or 7. and this is my only forum btw. I just happen to be a fan of all the dallas teams that lived in phx.

That's a classic sentence. How many Dallas teams lived in Phoenix?;)

Steve
 

Cheesebeef

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i'm actively starting to root against my own 250.00 bet (which I don't have to necessarily win this year). the heat are freaking clowns.

did anyone see Wade and LeBron mocking dirk being sick yesterday? what classless morons... especially considering the big deal they made out LeBron's freaking head cold when they beat the Bulls one round earlier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o74t3j-P0QM

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/news/story?id=6563197

waaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!! **** Miami and actually try to win a close game instead of ripping on the team that keeps punking your ass in the fourth quarter.
 

JCSunsfan

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Great tweet from Skip Bayless after the game:



That should end the Jordan / Kobe / LeBron debate for good. If anyone ever suggests that LeBron is as good as Jordan ever again just throw your hands up and walk away, delete them from twitter, change the station, de-friend them, remove them from your top-8, turn the radio off, or whatever you have to do because that person is a f'n moron.

Mj played for one of the best college coaches of all time. He won an ncaa championship. Le bron has the physical toools but has never had the coaching, mentoring, or developmental experience. Kobe got away with skipping that stage bc of phil jackson. Every failure now just makes him more fragile.
 

carey

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Mj played for one of the best college coaches of all time. He won an ncaa championship. Le bron has the physical toools but has never had the coaching, mentoring, or developmental experience. Kobe got away with skipping that stage bc of phil jackson. Every failure now just makes him more fragile.

So you're saying it's' bad coaching he doesn't have a killer instinct? Or it's bad coaching that caused him to score 11 4th quarter points in 5 finals games?

Or it's lack of having a legendary coach that cause him to shrink away from big moments?

It doesn't make sense to me. He's been in the league 8 years now.
 

JCSunsfan

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Great tweet from Skip Bayless after the game:



That should end the Jordan / Kobe / LeBron debate for good. If anyone ever suggests that LeBron is as good as Jordan ever again just throw your hands up and walk away, delete them from twitter, change the station, de-friend them, remove them from your top-8, turn the radio off, or whatever you have to do because that person is a f'n moron.

So you're saying it's' bad coaching he doesn't have a killer instinct? Or it's bad coaching that caused him to score 11 4th quarter points in 5 finals games?

Or it's lack of having a legendary coach that cause him to shrink away from big moments?

It doesn't make sense to me. He's been in the league 8 years now.

He hasnt had the incremental development. He is the one who chose to skip that step. And yes, a good coach would make a world of difference for Lebron, but i do not think he hhas the sense to see it. And yes, good coaching along the way is what helps a player get the psychological aspect of the game right. Lebron just doesnt have it. you can see it i. his eyes.
 

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i'm actively starting to root against my own 250.00 bet (which I don't have to necessarily win this year). the heat are freaking clowns.

did anyone see Wade and LeBron mocking dirk being sick yesterday? what classless morons... especially considering the big deal they made out LeBron's freaking head cold when they beat the Bulls one round earlier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o74t3j-P0QM

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/news/story?id=6563197

waaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!! **** Miami and actually try to win a close game instead of ripping on the team that keeps punking your ass in the fourth quarter.

It's so weird--it's not like Dirk was making a big deal out of it. And it's not like he's known for being even a shred of a drama queen. And it's not like anyone was using it as an excuse because the Mavs won game 4. Really poor sportsmanship here. But also stupid--why are you motivating Dirk when he's on the mend?
 

desertdawg

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What is Lebron's problem? All that talent, and still gets the George Costanza shrinkage when it matters. I've thought about this for a minute, and I don't have a Psych degree.

His childhood was filled with him being a winner and always being the best dude on the court. His friends/teammates had always rode on him to get to victory lane, but that was all in scrubville or High School or "camps." He did lose one game (in his youth) on some special I seen, but I don't remember what it was all about or if it's even relevant.

But he didn't go to college, where I think he would have become a man so to speak. I think he would have seen the talent and pressure situations that make a man..or at least help someone grow before they hit the show.

What we see right now is the most gifted dude on the planet when it comes down to it, but it's just not in him to do it when he gets rattled.

Personally I had a step dad that happened to be a umpire/coach in my little league baseball career :D. Only reason I bring this up is because my stepdad ended up umping the "allstar" game at the end of the season. He always told me if something ever went down and if it was to close to call...he would go the other way. Then in the allstar game I came sliding into home plate, and I was safe by a country mile...but he called me out.

He wouldn't let me quit when he was whooping my ass at B-ball, boxing, chess, whatever and he would rub it in while schooling me. He was always there to teach me how to deal with not being in control, but to keep trucking. I guess that's my point. I know I'm no proffessional athelete, and I understand I don't know how it is to be in the NBA Finals.

But I know what quit and lost looks like.
 

Cheesebeef

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It's so weird--it's not like Dirk was making a big deal out of it. And it's not like he's known for being even a shred of a drama queen. And it's not like anyone was using it as an excuse because the Mavs won game 4. Really poor sportsmanship here. But also stupid--why are you motivating Dirk when he's on the mend?

exactly. they just look like a couple of *******... on and off the court at this point.
 

Bert

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exactly. they just look like a couple of *******... on and off the court at this point.

Lebron still just doesn't have the killer instinct he needs to dominate and close the biggest of games consistantly. The guy has all the talent in the world. I mean the guy gets a triple double in the finals while having a disappointing game. Thats crazy, but he was literally 'crowned' way too early, he lacks that closer mentality.

Just like last night, Wade was hurt, Lebron should have put the team on his shoulders and he did NOTHING in the 4th and then after the game he took 0 responsibility for the loss and when asked if the team needed "more from him in the 4th quarter" Lebron responded with a PROFOUND; "uhhh I dunno uhh I don dink so."

That's why they build big leads, because they are more talented, and it's also why they keep losing them at the end, because they are weak.

Just look at Bosh's comments after losing game 4 and the series was back to 2-2: "It just means we gotta get serious again."

Dude you were up 2-1 in the finals and you weren't taking it serious? The guy was acting like they were up 3-0 and just lost their first game. Even then that kind of attitude is unnacceptable.

Hey #3, you're DOWN 3-2 now so are you taking this game serious or are you going to wait till next season to start taking stuff serious? I know this QB in Arizona who could give you some pointers on takin stuff serious if you need help. Then again maybe the fix has been in all this time and thats why Bosh isn't worried. :p :)

No matter how hard the media tries to convince us what great guys the Heat all are, they are obviously still a bunch of cocky little punks who's attitudes and desire to win is not yet at the same level as their talent.

PS Where are all the Heat fans who were spamming this thread with trash talk after game 1? Guess Lebron's fanboys figure if he's going to disappear late they should follow suit. :mulli:
 
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TJ

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What is Lebron's problem? All that talent, and still gets the George Costanza shrinkage when it matters. I've thought about this for a minute, and I don't have a Psych degree.

I actually have a Sports Psych Master's degree. I'm not 100% sure what's going on in LeBron's head (gotta evaluate him and charge $200/hour ;)). I think the pressure is beginning to mount and he is resorting to being more of a facilitator than a scorer by letting D-Wade and Bosh play the prominent role of finishing. It did not help that Pippen blurted out the bogus MJ v. LeBron comparison after the ECF. This performance is uncharacteristic of LeBron as he has proven time and time again he can tear up teams singlehandedly, even in the 4th quarter (see Bulls series). In LeBron's defense, it shows his versatility that he can facilitate as well as attack, but dishing the rock is not why he was brought to South Beach. As Jim Rome said the other day, "quit letting D-Wade do your job for you." Subtext, "This is your team now. You are the leader. Act the part."

Even still, messing around and getting a triple-double is impressive. Can't bang on LeBron too hard for that.

From a physical standpoint, I see him playing the point more than I see him hovering around the court. I'm not sure if this is by design, but it should not be this way. No matter what your level of hatred is, LeBron is better than Wade. If he turns it on or he is put in a position to do so, he will rip up the Mavs defense.

Part of the demise of this team in the 4th is due to the entire squad playing not to lose instead of playing to win. If you get a lead, you sustain it. This has been my #1 gripe about the Run 'n Gun Suns the past few years. Even if you're up 12, make it 20. I think Spoelstra needs to convey this message to the entire team. Much of this is about coaching. A coach cannot let his team get passive towards the end. If he finds the lead slipping away, do something about it. Adjust. Spoelstra is young and probably stubborn. I've never been sold on him and thought for a while that Riley would take over once again to deal with the Type-A personalities that are on the Heat right now.

In addition to which, LeBron is really having difficulty with his outside shot. He is usually money from beyond the arc, but he missed some key ones in the 4th last game. Eventually, those shots will fall. Actually, they have to in Game 6 in order to stay alive.

I said it before that if Dallas can score 100+, they'll win. This was a prime indicator that the Heat defense was not clicking on all cylinders. Both the interior and perimeter defenses were nonexistent. Dallas shooting 57% is an outlier against a lock down defense like Miami's. It wont happen again.

That being said, going back to Miami for two games is what's going against Dallas right now. They have the momentum. They have the swagger. They have the confidence. But Miami has HCA from this point forward and if they win Game 6, the pressure is more so on Dallas than it is Miami. If Dallas is to win the series, they have to treat the next game like a Game 7. Wrap it up and go home to get fitted for rings. Otherwise, it's an uphill battle for them.

One game at a time for both teams; however, I do not see Miami losing 3 in a row and Dallas shooting lights out again.

Miami takes Game 6.
 
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Cheesebeef

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I actually have a Sports Psych Master's degree. I'm not 100% sure what's going on in LeBron's head (gotta evaluate him and charge $200/hour ;)). I think the pressure is beginning to mount and he is resorting to being more of a facilitator than a scorer by letting D-Wade and Bosh play the prominent role of finishing. It did not help that Pippen blurted out the bogus MJ v. LeBron comparison after the ECF. This performance is uncharacteristic of LeBron as he has proven time and time again he can tear up teams singlehandedly, even in the 4th quarter (see Bulls series). In LeBron's defense, it shows his versatility that he can facilitate as well as attack, but dishing the rock is not why he was brought to South Beach. As Jim Rome said the other day, "quit letting D-Wade do your job for you." Subtext, "This is your team now. You are the leader. Act the part."

Even still, messing around and getting a triple-double is impressive. Can't bang on LeBron too hard for that.

From a physical standpoint, I see him playing the point more than I see him hovering around the court. I'm not sure if this is by design, but it should not be this way. No matter what your level of hatred is, LeBron is better than Wade. If he turns it on or he is put in a position to do so, he will rip up the Mavs defense.

i just don't know if you can definitely say this anymore... not until LeBron actually proves that when the chips are absolutely down, he can rise above. He's staring at the third straight year his team is favored to win the title and he not only did he fail last year, he QUIT and this year, he's completely Matrixed up in four consecutive fourth quarters. He may be the most TALENTED player in the game, but when he can't use those talents in the fourth quarter of the biggest challenges of his life in basketball, he can't be deemed the best of anything.

he's scored 11 points in 5 fourth quarters... of CLOSE games. That's beyond pathetic. there's literally no defense of that.

and this is coming from a guy who isn't a "hater"... I was banging on Laker fans, bulls fans, boston fans, etc. etc... hell, I stand to win 250 bucks if the Heat win this series... but at a certain point, you gotta call a spade a spade and right now, with the lights shining brightest, LeBron has become a 4th quarter choking dog.
 
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desertdawg

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From a physical standpoint, I see him playing the point more than I see him hovering around the court. I'm not sure if this is by design, but it should not be this way. No matter what your level of hatred is, LeBron is better than Wade. If he turns it on or he is put in a position to do so, he will rip up the Mavs defense.


Miami takes Game 6.
My hatred for Lebron is pure and simple, he hasn't earned the respect that goes with the talent he has and he fugeed his hometown with no lube, live on TV. I aint stuck on hate'n him, I just call it like I see it. Lebron has moved into the spot Dirk just got out of in my world. Dirk has always had the talent but now the manhood is there as well, and Wade is a man.

Comparing Wade, Bron Bron and Dirk at this point...they are all good. Wade and Dirk have been there done that and don't get caught up in their own head the way Baby Bron does right now. I think Lebron will be a better player because of all this but he does need all this to become a clutch killer player.
Wade>Lebron, but Lebron can change all that if he can get out of his own way.
 

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i just don't know if you can definitely say this anymore... not until LeBron actually proves that when the chips are absolutely down, he can rise above. He's staring at the third straight year his team is favored to win the title and he not only did he fail last year, he QUIT and this year, he's completely Matrixed up in four consecutive fourth quarters. He may be the most TALENTED player in the game, but when he can't use those talents in the fourth quarter of the biggest challenges of his life in basketball, he can't be deemed the best of anything.

Agree... I just don't get how he can get that Cavs team to a finals, and is now on the brink of losing with this Heat team... Makes no sense...
 

Covert Rain

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No matter what your level of hatred is, LeBron is better than Wade. If he turns it on or he is put in a position to do so, he will rip up the Mavs defense.

No he is not and this is coming from someone who doesn't hate LeBron. LeBron is probably more physically gifted and a stronger player. However, the mental aspect of this game and the killer instinct aspect of the game is a huge part of evaluating a player. Also, the one thing I like to point out is that sports is full of players who excel and play at the top of their game but when it comes to the highest pressure points...shrink for whatever reason. Nothing is more high pressure then the Finals. That is exactly what LeBron has done. Wade thrives in pressure situations on the biggest stage.

Like Wade....the best players in the world don't shrink during these situations. Look as some of the games past greats......like Wade they didn't disappear for 4 of the 5 games played in the finals series they were involved in. Even if LeBron has monster games in the last two (assuming there is two more) he showed a MAJOR dink in the armor.

Part of the demise of this team in the 4th is due to the entire squad playing not to lose instead of playing to win. If you get a lead, you sustain it. This has been my #1 gripe about the Run 'n Gun Suns the past few years. Even if you're up 12, make it 20. I think Spoelstra needs to convey this message to the entire team. Much of this is about coaching. A coach cannot let his team get passive towards the end. If he finds the lead slipping away, do something about it. Adjust. Spoelstra is young and probably stubborn. I've never been sold on him and thought for a while that Riley would take over once again to deal with the Type-A personalities that are on the Heat right now.

This is highly debatable. When you have one guy playing his guts out and doing everything to win (Wade) and the others on the team are not stepping up to assist, that does not say "playing not to lose". There have been a ton of bad decisions and shots at the ends of those games when the ball was not in Wade's hands. When it was in his hands he tried to make things happen but this is still a team sport and someone besides Wade needs to step up.

Also, you have to give Dallas credit. They played some fantastic defense in a couple of those games down the stretch. They were stopping Miami. It wasn't a matter of Miami playing not to lose. They were just stopped.

In addition to which, LeBron is really having difficulty with his outside shot. He is usually money from beyond the arc, but he missed some key ones in the 4th last game. Eventually, those shots will fall. Actually, they have to in Game 6 in order to stay alive.

That is the problem. He is taking outside shots and contested ones at that. LeBron admitted himself he was not being aggressive enough going to the basket. No matter how money anybody is, you don't pass up the opportunity to drive to the bucket or get easy points to close games versus chucking up contested 3's.
 
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Lorenzo

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I actually have a Sports Psych Master's degree. I'm not 100% sure what's going on in LeBron's head (gotta evaluate him and charge $200/hour ;)). I think the pressure is beginning to mount and he is resorting to being more of a facilitator than a scorer by letting D-Wade and Bosh play the prominent role of finishing. It did not help that Pippen blurted out the bogus MJ v. LeBron comparison after the ECF. This performance is uncharacteristic of LeBron as he has proven time and time again he can tear up teams singlehandedly, even in the 4th quarter (see Bulls series). In LeBron's defense, it shows his versatility that he can facilitate as well as attack, but dishing the rock is not why he was brought to South Beach. As Jim Rome said the other day, "quit letting D-Wade do your job for you." Subtext, "This is your team now. You are the leader. Act the part."

Even still, messing around and getting a triple-double is impressive. Can't bang on LeBron too hard for that.

From a physical standpoint, I see him playing the point more than I see him hovering around the court. I'm not sure if this is by design, but it should not be this way. No matter what your level of hatred is, LeBron is better than Wade. If he turns it on or he is put in a position to do so, he will rip up the Mavs defense.

Part of the demise of this team in the 4th is due to the entire squad playing not to lose instead of playing to win. If you get a lead, you sustain it. This has been my #1 gripe about the Run 'n Gun Suns the past few years. Even if you're up 12, make it 20. I think Spoelstra needs to convey this message to the entire team. Much of this is about coaching. A coach cannot let his team get passive towards the end. If he finds the lead slipping away, do something about it. Adjust. Spoelstra is young and probably stubborn. I've never been sold on him and thought for a while that Riley would take over once again to deal with the Type-A personalities that are on the Heat right now.

In addition to which, LeBron is really having difficulty with his outside shot. He is usually money from beyond the arc, but he missed some key ones in the 4th last game. Eventually, those shots will fall. Actually, they have to in Game 6 in order to stay alive.

I said it before that if Dallas can score 100+, they'll win. This was a prime indicator that the Heat defense was not clicking on all cylinders. Both the interior and perimeter defenses were nonexistent. Dallas shooting 57% is an outlier against a lock down defense like Miami's. It wont happen again.

That being said, going back to Miami for two games is what's going against Dallas right now. They have the momentum. They have the swagger. They have the confidence. But Miami has HCA from this point forward and if they win Game 6, the pressure is more so on Dallas than it is Miami. If Dallas is to win the series, they have to treat the next game like a Game 7. Wrap it up and go home to get fitted for rings. Otherwise, it's an uphill battle for them.

One game at a time for both teams; however, I do not see Miami losing 3 in a row and Dallas shooting lights out again.

Miami takes Game 6.
i read the end of your post. and dallas has already proven 2 other times against miami, many times in the other series as well against tough opposition in the west, that they can win games when they don't shoot the ball well because of their 4th quarter play at both ends.

I don't know that dallas has to shoot well to win in miami, but certainly that will probably seal the deal for them if they do.

from what I have seen in this series is that dallas has won 2 of their 3 games in spite of their poor shooting. that should make miami and heat fans nervous. the odds favor that dallas will continue to shoot the ball well if they get open shots. it all comes down to 4th quarter execution.

and dallas does many things to miami that none of the other teams that they have faced can do. they can get stops in the 4th, rebound the basketball in the 4th, and can score in many different ways. they are the only team that can beat miami in miami because they are a team full of veterans that know how to win collectively. they all know their distinctive roles when they are on the court. lebron can't simply lock down one guy and force him into bad shots like he did against the bulls.
 
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Lorenzo

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exactly. they just look like a couple of *******... on and off the court at this point.
yeah I think that was a low move if that was what they were doing. especially from wade...it looked like lebron was just going along with it kind of. there would be no reason for dirk to be faking an illness in the finals. anyone who knows his career would see that this guy is focused on winning it all. so much so that he walked out of the WCF ceremony to send a message to his team. Told his owner to shut his mouth, told jason terry that he needs to be clutch, and he is getting the results from himself and teammates that is necessary to win. he willed them to many victories in these playoffs almost singlehandid at times. after all of this he is just one win away. i hope he gets it done. it will be tough.

instead of making fun of dirk's cough they should have been taking advantage of that opportunity when dirk had a poor shooting game. but the guy with fever still scored 10 points in the fourth to include the game winning shot going to his "weak" side. that's pretty tough if you ask me.
 
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Bert

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I actually have a Sports Psych Master's degree. I'm not 100% sure what's going on in LeBron's head (gotta evaluate him and charge $200/hour ;)). I think the pressure is beginning to mount and he is resorting to being more of a facilitator than a scorer by letting D-Wade and Bosh play the prominent role of finishing. It did not help that Pippen blurted out the bogus MJ v. LeBron comparison after the ECF. This performance is uncharacteristic of LeBron as he has proven time and time again he can tear up teams singlehandedly, even in the 4th quarter (see Bulls series). In LeBron's defense, it shows his versatility that he can facilitate as well as attack, but dishing the rock is not why he was brought to South Beach. As Jim Rome said the other day, "quit letting D-Wade do your job for you." Subtext, "This is your team now. You are the leader. Act the part."

Even still, messing around and getting a triple-double is impressive. Can't bang on LeBron too hard for that.

From a physical standpoint, I see him playing the point more than I see him hovering around the court. I'm not sure if this is by design, but it should not be this way. No matter what your level of hatred is, LeBron is better than Wade. If he turns it on or he is put in a position to do so, he will rip up the Mavs defense.

Part of the demise of this team in the 4th is due to the entire squad playing not to lose instead of playing to win. If you get a lead, you sustain it. This has been my #1 gripe about the Run 'n Gun Suns the past few years. Even if you're up 12, make it 20. I think Spoelstra needs to convey this message to the entire team. Much of this is about coaching. A coach cannot let his team get passive towards the end. If he finds the lead slipping away, do something about it. Adjust. Spoelstra is young and probably stubborn. I've never been sold on him and thought for a while that Riley would take over once again to deal with the Type-A personalities that are on the Heat right now.

In addition to which, LeBron is really having difficulty with his outside shot. He is usually money from beyond the arc, but he missed some key ones in the 4th last game. Eventually, those shots will fall. Actually, they have to in Game 6 in order to stay alive.

I said it before that if Dallas can score 100+, they'll win. This was a prime indicator that the Heat defense was not clicking on all cylinders. Both the interior and perimeter defenses were nonexistent. Dallas shooting 57% is an outlier against a lock down defense like Miami's. It wont happen again.

That being said, going back to Miami for two games is what's going against Dallas right now. They have the momentum. They have the swagger. They have the confidence. But Miami has HCA from this point forward and if they win Game 6, the pressure is more so on Dallas than it is Miami. If Dallas is to win the series, they have to treat the next game like a Game 7. Wrap it up and go home to get fitted for rings. Otherwise, it's an uphill battle for them.

One game at a time for both teams; however, I do not see Miami losing 3 in a row and Dallas shooting lights out again.

Miami takes Game 6.


Really good points TJ. Especially the part about Lebron not taking over the team and letting Dwade do his job. That's the difference I see between the 3 who are always compared. The 3 being Jordan/Kobe/Lebron.

Jordan was the master, he never shy'd away from the moment, and once he broke through, he never failed.

Kobe has insane talent and a killer instinct almost on Jordans level, but Kobe has some Quit in him too.

Lebron seems to avoid the moment. He has as much talent and probably MORE athletic gifts than the first two but the difference between him and them is that Lebron doesn't even seem to WANT the big moment in his hands. How else can you describe his Houdini act in 4th quarters this season and his quitting fiasco in Cleveland?
 
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Cheesebeef

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I also don't think Dallas has any fear of winning a Game 7 in Miami. To be honest, I almost expect Miami to win Game 6 and then Dallas somehow guts out a classic Game 7 with LeBron going completely turtle.
 
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