2014 Draft morphing

[Russ Smith]

They have been below .500 all of Love's career.

West or East it does not matter they never were a playoff team.

They've never had any talent in his career either. He's had 4 coaches in 5 years they keep blowing draft picks and when they do get a decent player, he gets hurt.

And they WOULD be a playoff team this year, with a mediocre roster, if they were in the East.

Look at the draft picks, Jonny Flynn, Derrick Williams, Wesley Johnson. The one good pick they made in those years was Ty Lawson, and they traded him and kept Flynn. Now Pekovic and Rubio were solid picks too but it's a horribly mismanaged franchise. Even this year they went and traded for Bazz when everyone by then had figured out Bazz was horribly overrated.

 

[Russ Smith]

His teams had more talent than the Suns recently but did not perform better .. on the opposite..

His teams also haven't played much worse when he was injured.

I'm cutting and pasting from Phrazbit's post.

Wolves record with Rubio last year: 18-39
Without Rubio: 13-12

Wolves Record with Love last year: 9-9
Without Love: 22-42

They're 0-3 this year without Love.

So 22-45 without Love the last 2 years. With Love 43-41. I'm going to go ahead and say that IS in fact MUCH worse when love is injured.

 

[Finito]

I'm cutting and pasting from Phrazbit's post.

Wolves record with Rubio last year: 18-39
Without Rubio: 13-12

Wolves Record with Love last year: 9-9
Without Love: 22-42

They're 0-3 this year without Love.

So 22-45 without Love the last 2 years. With Love 43-41. I'm going to go ahead and say that IS in fact MUCH worse when love is injured.

And they pretty much blows up the argument Kevin Love doesn't help his team win games. They might be a .500 team with him in the lineup but take him out and that's a 25 win team for a season.

Thank you

 

[Phrazbit]

His teams had more talent than the Suns recently but did not perform better .. on the opposite..

His teams also haven't played much worse when he was injured.

In the last two years they're 43-41 when Love does play and 22-45 without him. So... they're a hell of a lot worse when he does not play.

And up until the addition of Martin I'd say the only guy on his team that did not suck out loud was Pekovic, but Pekovic and Love are a bad combination because neither protect the rim.

Love obviously makes the Wolves much much better, Love is and has been saddled with one of the worst supporting casts in the league. I dont think he is a super-duper star, but I would be very interested to see what happened if you put him with an organization that was not ran by idiots and on a roster where players as bad as Corey Brewer and Ricky Rubio were not vital cogs.

 

[slinslin]

Last year Rubio came back from a torn ACL.

Last year Rubio had winshares of 0.85/48 while Love only had 0.84/48.

In 2011/2012
21-20 with Rubio
5-20 without Rubio

24-31 with Love
2-9 without Love

2010/2011
17-56 with Love
0-9 without Love

2009/2010
12-48 with Love
3-19 without Love

And stop telling us how the Timberwolves would make the playoffs in the East, like that is an achievement.
Any other "superstar" would get blasted for the career losing record that Love has.

 

[Phrazbit]

Last year Rubio came back from a torn ACL.

Last year Rubio had winshares of 0.85/48 while Love only had 0.84/48.

In 2011/2012
21-20 with Rubio
5-20 without Rubio

24-31 with Love
2-9 without Love

2010/2011
17-56 with Love
0-9 without Love

2009/2010
12-48 with Love
3-19 without Love

And stop telling us how the Timberwolves would make the playoffs in the East, like that is an achievement.
Any other "superstar" would get blasted for the career losing record that Love has.

Oh, win shares, that settles it. Who cares that the Wolves were dramatically better WITH Love and dramatically worse WITH Rubio... he had a .01 lead in "win shares per 48".

Rubio blows. Sorry to break it to you. He might be the worst shooting point guard in the entire league, and he stinks on defense too.

The Wolves are much much much better WITH Love in the lineup and the facts bear that out. You're sitting here trying to say that its must be his faults that keep the Wolves out of the playoffs while at the same time linking numbers that show the team can hardly win a damn game without him on the court because his teammates are such wretched trash.

I'm not sure if Love is a guy you can build a championship team around, but I am sure that the Wolves, in their gross incompetence, have constructed a team that it truly would take a bonafide superstar to elevate them beyond their putrid level of play.

 

[Cheesebeef]

here's the thing, I don't think Love is a bad player. He's a good player. He's just not an impact #1 or #2 guy, IMO. he'd make for a GREAT 3rd banana of a big three but if he's your number 2, you're number 1 better be LeBron or Durant.

 

[Russ Smith]

Last year Rubio came back from a torn ACL.

Last year Rubio had winshares of 0.85/48 while Love only had 0.84/48.

In 2011/2012
21-20 with Rubio
5-20 without Rubio

24-31 with Love
2-9 without Love

2010/2011
17-56 with Love
0-9 without Love

2009/2010
12-48 with Love
3-19 without Love

And stop telling us how the Timberwolves would make the playoffs in the East, like that is an achievement.
Any other "superstar" would get blasted for the career losing record that Love has.

hard to argue with that math, you proved your point.

Prior 3 years without Love 5-37, with Love 53-135. Now I'm no math genius and I don't know the winshares offhand, but looks to me like the WITH Love numbers are MUCH better than the WITHOUT Love numbers? .119 without .28 with. Seems like more than twice as good. So basically we have data that says every year the team is better with Love than without.

You're the one that's claiming because he hasn't made the playoffs he's not any good, I'm just pointing out by simply changing conferences that would go away this year, apparently that would make him better.

Rubio is fun to watch, 13 year old girls seem to like him, someone on this board couldn't stop talking about him when he was playing overseas, I forget that posters name you might recall? But as an NBA player he's not particularly good or bad, I guarantee there isn't a GM in the league that would pick him over Kevin love.

 

[Russ Smith]

here's the thing, I don't think Love is a bad player. He's a good player. He's just not an impact #1 or #2 guy, IMO. he'd make for a GREAT 3rd banana of a big three but if he's your number 2, you're number 1 better be LeBron or Durant.

Oh yeah he's not on the level of LeBron or Durant I don't think anybody is arguing that. Just the notion that he's just padding his stats on a bad team I don't agree with.

Guys that do that don't pull 10 defensive boards a game, shoot a reasonable percentage and average over 4 APG as a big. He's not a superstar, but he's not a chucker either.

 

[BC867]

I really didn't get to see much of him either, just the playoffs and a few games a year against the Lakers and the Clippers. I just have a memory of him being adequate at best defensively.

DJ was with the Suns for three seasons and was NBA 1st team-defensive for all three seasons.

Ironically, for the three seasons before that, Don Buse (of the Suns) was NBA 1st team-defensive . We had one of the top two defensive Guards in the league for six straight years.

Dennis Johnson was superior on defense. With the Sonics, with the Suns and with the Celtics.

My heart was broken when MacLeod talked Colangelo into trading DJ and Maurice Lucas because they weren't the laid back little soldiers that MacLeod could dominate with his pre-determined minutes.

They were tough on opponents, but never a problem with Suns management or teammates. Y'know, the kind who win championships (as DJ and Luke both did before coming here).

But even he couldn't overcome the Suns image of being McLeod's "pretty" team.

 

[SirStefan32]

I've been watching the Wolves a lot this year (I want the Suns to get their pick, Love is probably the closest thing to a star the Suns may have a chance to trade for, etc) and I can say with certainty that their record has nothing to do with K-Love.

First off, they have no bench. To be more precise, they have no scoring off the bench. When their bench scores, they win, but unfortunately that doesn't happen often.

Next up is Rubio. He would be a fine point guard for a running team full of scorers. Minnesota is slow, and outside of Love, they have no dynamic scorers. Martin can score from the outside and Pekovic can score in the paint, but there are absolutely no other scorers on that team. Brewer and Cunningham can run and make some cool plays once in a while, but they are not really scorers.

I love Pekovic, but he and Love are not a great fit together. Neither one of them is a terrible defender, and nobody will back Pekovic down, but neither one of them has the ability to alter or block shots.

Now, I am still not sold on K-Love, but after watching 30-40 games this season, I am no longer opposed to signing Love. He is NOT a Superstar, BUT I think the Suns could build around Dragic and Love.

 

[Mainstreet]

DJ was with the Suns for three seasons and was NBA 1st team-defensive for all three seasons.

Ironically, for the three seasons before that, Don Buse (of the Suns) was NBA 1st team-defensive . We had one of the top two defensive Guards in the league for six straight years.

Dennis Johnson was superior on defense. With the Sonics, with the Suns and with the Celtics.

My heart was broken when MacLeod talked Colangelo into trading DJ and Maurice Lucas because they weren't the laid back little soldiers that MacLeod could dominate with his pre-determined minutes.

They were tough on opponents, but never a problem with Suns management or teammates. Y'know, the kind who win championships (as DJ and Luke both did before coming here).

But even he couldn't overcome the Suns image of being McLeod's "pretty" team.

But the Suns traded DJ for a big man that fans had long wanted. It turned out to be Rick Robey. I guess going big isn't always the answer.

 

[BC867]

But the Suns traded DJ for a big man that fans had long wanted. It turned out to be Rick Robey. I guess going big isn't always the answer.

Especially when the big man is a 3rd string Center. Unless we traded a 3rd string Guard.

During that period, MacLeod's Power Forward was the defacto Center. It is ironic that Robey was actually a Center playing Power Forward. Unfortunately, he wasn't a very good one. And certainly nowhere near equal value for the likes of Dennis Johnson.

P.S.: I am surprised you didn't use a after saying, "I guess going big isn't always the answer."

 

[Mainstreet]

Especially when the big man is a 3rd string Center. Unless we traded a 3rd string Guard.

During that period, MacLeod's Power Forward was the defacto Center. It is ironic that Robey was actually a Center playing Power Forward. Unfortunately, he wasn't a very good one. And certainly nowhere near equal value for the likes of Dennis Johnson.

P.S.: I am surprised you didn't use a after saying, "I guess going big isn't always the answer."

I like bigs as much as you like bigs but I don't want the Suns to draft size over talent. We've been there before.

So when I want the Suns to start Ish Smith at center, I don't want to hear any negative feedback.

 

[BC867]

So when I want the Suns to start Ish Smith at center, I don't want to hear any negative feedback.

I think the Gorilla might beat him out for it. As long as he can use a trampoline.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I've been watching the Wolves a lot this year (I want the Suns to get their pick, Love is probably the closest thing to a star the Suns may have a chance to trade for, etc) and I can say with certainty that their record has nothing to do with K-Love.

First off, they have no bench. To be more precise, they have no scoring off the bench. When their bench scores, they win, but unfortunately that doesn't happen often.

Next up is Rubio. He would be a fine point guard for a running team full of scorers. Minnesota is slow, and outside of Love, they have no dynamic scorers. Martin can score from the outside and Pekovic can score in the paint, but there are absolutely no other scorers on that team. Brewer and Cunningham can run and make some cool plays once in a while, but they are not really scorers.

I love Pekovic, but he and Love are not a great fit together. Neither one of them is a terrible defender, and nobody will back Pekovic down, but neither one of them has the ability to alter or block shots.

Now, I am still not sold on K-Love, but after watching 30-40 games this season, I am no longer opposed to signing Love. He is NOT a Superstar, BUT I think the Suns could build around Dragic and Love.

I will vomit if this team builds around Dragic and Love. Those guys as your main stars says 50 and fade forever...not to mention an AWFUL defensive team.

 

[Catlover]

I will vomit if this team builds around Dragic and Love. Those guys as your main stars says 50 and fade forever...not to mention an AWFUL defensive team.

Just before Bledsoe came back we gave up 100+ points in 9 straight games and I'm not talking 101 points, most of those were well over the century mark. In our last 5 games, all wins, we've held 4 of our opponents under 100 points. Coincidence? Perhaps. But from the day Bledsoe went down until he returned we only won 4 games total while holding our opponent to double digits.

 

[Mainstreet]

I've been looking at the draft boards. If the Suns were inclined to go PF or center with their first selection, I think the Suns could move up at least a couple of notches if a player of their liking drops close to where they pick by giving up the Indiana or even the Wizards pick. I'm not sure who will be available near to where the Suns draft at this early date as the boards seem divided towards the middle of the draft. I mentioned earlier Montrezl Harrell may be an option if the Suns stay put. There must be a number of other realistic candidates if the Suns indeed go C/PF with their first pick. Any thoughts? There must be a Mason Plumlee in this draft.

 

[Catlover]

I've been looking at the draft boards. If the Suns were inclined to go PF or center with their first selection, I think the Suns could move up at least a couple of notches if a player of their liking drops close to where they pick by giving up the Indiana or even the Wizards pick. I'm not sure who will be available near to where the Suns draft at this early date as the boards seem divided towards the middle of the draft. I mentioned earlier Montrezl Harrell may be an option if the Suns stay put. There must be a number of other realistic candidates if the Suns indeed go C/PF with their first pick. Any thoughts? There must be a Mason Plumlee in this draft.

Jusuf Nurkic or Clint Capela. I've never actually watched them play so it's a bit of ignorance is bliss but I've seen Harrell and I think he's just another of the athletic under-sized power forwards that rarely finds their game at the next level. If we didn't already have an undersized power forward in Markieff it might be different but I think we need a legit 6'9 player or above. Harrell is 6'6(ish). Payne (MSU) probably fits our style of play the best although I'm not sure how much of a ceiling he has.

 

[Mainstreet]

Jusuf Nurkic or Clint Capela. I've never actually watched them play so it's a bit of ignorance is bliss but I've seen Harrell and I think he's just another of the athletic under-sized power forwards that rarely finds their game at the next level. If we didn't already have an undersized power forward in Markieff it might be different but I think we need a legit 6'9 player or above. Harrell is 6'6(ish). Payne (MSU) probably fits our style of play the best although I'm not sure how much of a ceiling he has.

Unfortunately Draft Express has Capela and Nurkic gone before the Suns first pick. This is why I got into the thought process, the Suns could use a draft pick to move up in the draft a couple of notches. However, Payne seems like he should be available to the Suns at their current position. Of course there is usually a player or two that drop in the draft. I'm beginning to think the Suns should strictly draft BPA unless another team approaches them with a trade.

 

[Catlover]

Unfortunately Draft Express has Capela and Nurkic gone before the Suns first pick. This is why I got into the thought process, the Suns could use a draft pick to move up in the draft a couple of notches. However, Payne seems like he should be available to the Suns at their current position. Of course there is usually a player or two that drop in the draft. I'm beginning to think the Suns should strictly draft BPA unless another team approaches them with a trade.

I think you should always draft best player available when best player available is clear. Unfortunately it's not always that clear so it's likely we'll be able to target a need without sacrificing the best player. As for Capela and Nurkic being gone, they bounce around in the various mocks but usually show up in the early teens so they're not too far from where we'll draft. I figure someone like Harrell will have a strong tourney finish and move into that top 12 or so. Maybe a couple of someones will move up and drop one or more of the international players to us.

 

[Errntknght]

I've been watching the Wolves a lot this year (I want the Suns to get their pick, Love is probably the closest thing to a star the Suns may have a chance to trade for, etc) and I can say with certainty that their record has nothing to do with K-Love.

First off, they have no bench. To be more precise, they have no scoring off the bench. When their bench scores, they win, but unfortunately that doesn't happen often.

Next up is Rubio. He would be a fine point guard for a running team full of scorers. Minnesota is slow, and outside of Love, they have no dynamic scorers. Martin can score from the outside and Pekovic can score in the paint, but there are absolutely no other scorers on that team. Brewer and Cunningham can run and make some cool plays once in a while, but they are not really scorers.

I love Pekovic, but he and Love are not a great fit together. Neither one of them is a terrible defender, and nobody will back Pekovic down, but neither one of them has the ability to alter or block shots.

Now, I am still not sold on K-Love, but after watching 30-40 games this season, I am no longer opposed to signing Love. He is NOT a Superstar, BUT I think the Suns could build around Dragic and Love.

Have you watched the Wolves since they've been playing Dieng heavy minutes? I've said all year they were badly missing the boat by not playing him and he's been making me look I knew what I was talking about. His rebounding has been off the charts. He was doing okay playing dribs and drabs but his avg per 36 now is 1 higher than Love's. He gives them good shot blocking and rim protection as well - just the kind of guy Love needs to have next to him.

Unless Love hates him for hogging the rebounds he might be just the player to make Love happy to stay in Minny.

Secretly I was hoping that Minny would get through the year without realizing the gem they'd gotten at #21 then we could steal him away for the #17 pick in a much stronger draft.

If Eric were running things for Minny we could still make the deal because he knows that there are no worthwhile bigs from last years draft. Oh its going to be fun seeing him repeatedly eating those words these next few years. After Dieng it'll be, A-Z, Adams, Len, Noel, Mason Plumlee, Zeller. Who knows, Bennett, Gobert, Olynyk and Withey may manage decent careers just to rub it in more. I'd need odds to take the last four but the first six I'd bet even money on each of them and be tickled to do it.

 

[Iceman]

I've been watching the Wolves a lot this year (I want the Suns to get their pick, Love is probably the closest thing to a star the Suns may have a chance to trade for, etc) and I can say with certainty that their record has nothing to do with K-Love.

First off, they have no bench. To be more precise, they have no scoring off the bench. When their bench scores, they win, but unfortunately that doesn't happen often.

Next up is Rubio. He would be a fine point guard for a running team full of scorers. Minnesota is slow, and outside of Love, they have no dynamic scorers. Martin can score from the outside and Pekovic can score in the paint, but there are absolutely no other scorers on that team. Brewer and Cunningham can run and make some cool plays once in a while, but they are not really scorers.

I love Pekovic, but he and Love are not a great fit together. Neither one of them is a terrible defender, and nobody will back Pekovic down, but neither one of them has the ability to alter or block shots.

Now, I am still not sold on K-Love, but after watching 30-40 games this season, I am no longer opposed to signing Love. He is NOT a Superstar, BUT I think the Suns could build around Dragic and Love.

I would to have Love in a Suns uniform. He is a beast!

 

[SirStefan32]

Have you watched the Wolves since they've been playing Dieng heavy minutes? I've said all year they were badly missing the boat by not playing him and he's been making me look I knew what I was talking about. His rebounding has been off the charts. He was doing okay playing dribs and drabs but his avg per 36 now is 1 higher than Love's. He gives them good shot blocking and rim protection as well - just the kind of guy Love needs to have next to him.

Unless Love hates him for hogging the rebounds he might be just the player to make Love happy to stay in Minny.

Secretly I was hoping that Minny would get through the year without realizing the gem they'd gotten at #21 then we could steal him away for the #17 pick in a much stronger draft.

If Eric were running things for Minny we could still make the deal because he knows that there are no worthwhile bigs from last years draft. Oh its going to be fun seeing him repeatedly eating those words these next few years. After Dieng it'll be, A-Z, Adams, Len, Noel, Mason Plumlee, Zeller. Who knows, Bennett, Gobert, Olynyk and Withey may manage decent careers just to rub it in more. I'd need odds to take the last four but the first six I'd bet even money on each of them and be tickled to do it.

I agree. Dieng is EXACTLY what they need.

 

[Chaplin]

It's official. Tonight we got Washington's draft pick.