2014 Draft morphing

[Catlover]

Well, no, of course not; it's not necessary that I post at all, or that you read my posts.



Bledsoe is a player without a position. He's a classic undersized "combo guard" who isn't enough of a distributor to be a PG and doesn't shoot well enough to be a SG. Over the last 25 years, I can think of only one player in the Bledsoe mold who has been a top-five player in the league, and that's Allen Iverson. And while it's true that I haven't watched every Suns game this year, I've seen enough of Bledsoe to know that he's no Iverson.



There's a difference between rational and logically consistent. Your unwillingness to part with Bledsoe is consistent with the premise that he is (nearly) destined to become a top-five player. But that premise, in my opinion, is faulty.



And I'm not willing to abandon mine just because a few people think otherwise.



Well it's hard to give that statement a lot of weight unless you have some track record of successfully evaluating the shooting form of NBA players, and if you have that, you haven't shared it. His numbers are what they are. He's not a good shooter. He's a career 32% shooter from three-point range and 76% from the line.

Now Kevin Johnson wasn't a good three-point shooter either, but he shot 84% from the line and better than 50% overall for his career, which is astounding for a PG. Oh, and throw in 9.1 assists per game, good for sixth on the all-time list. So you say Bledsoe is a better defender, yes, probably, but he has nowhere near Johnson's charisma as a leader.

By the time Johnson was Bledsoe's current age, he had already logged seasons of 19/11 and 22/11 and made an All-Star team. Your assessment of Bledsoe is based on what you imagine he might become. That's fine, but there's no strong evidence that convinces me to buy into that dream.



Why are you so confident assuming that those things will happen? Shooting a basketball is damn hard. Lots of superb basketball players never get very good at it. You don't get to be a good shooter, by NBA standards, just by wanting it. It isn't just desire and experience that sets someone like Stephen Curry apart from the Bledose ranks.

Better post, even with the dismissive tone. I believe he'll improve his shot because I've already seen an improvement from him. I agree he lacks Kevin's leadership. I also agree that he'll likely never be the shooter that Curry is. I don't think he needs to though. He just needs to improve his floater and his outside shot a little and even if he fails, he's still a dangerous offensive weapon.

The biggest surprise in your entire post though is your begrudging concession that Bledsoe might be a better defender. What did you see of KJ's defense that kept you from saying "yes, definitely"? I think the gap on defense is already far greater in Bledsoe's favor than the advantage KJ had offensively and he holds quite the advantage at that end.

I'll admit that Bledsoe might not ever reach my projections but I'm not talking about a top 200 player moving into the top 5. IMO he's already a top 25 player even though he's never had a chance to start until this season. He's not a volume shooter like Iverson was, he's not your prototypical point guard like Stockton. But whether he fits the typical mold or not, he's a basketball player. He changes the game while he's out there and he has that kind of impact on both ends of the court.

As for my credentials, I have none. I have no track record of successfully evaluating the shooting form of NBA players. I just don't see any obvious flawsin his form. Perhaps someone with better credentials can point out what I'm missing.

 

[Cheesebeef]

That's just crazy. He's 26-12 on 46% shooting. Yeah his team is healthy but they suck. Rubio had never taken that step.All those teams are much more talented than that T-Wolves team. He's the only option on that team and still gets his. Have you heard him talk lately he seems broken. Remember KG that stat padder how many years that guy get bumped in the first round on those T Wolves teams. He's starting to sound like that stat padder Pau Gasol his last years in Memphis or when Barkley was padding his stats in Philly. This guy needs a change of scenery big time

You bring up KG, Gasol, Barkley and try to compare them as "stat padders" to Love to try and upend my argument, but those guys only prove it further. You know why? Because ALL of them took their shwag-ass teams to the playoffs MULTIPLE times...all by themselves. That's what impact players do...and what Love doesn't.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Garnett had help Marbury and Googs were both all stars on those teams and Garnett caught hell I think he went like 5 years in a row getting bounced out the first round. The comparisons to Barkley, KG and Gasol are very legit there in the exact same position you cannot do it by yourself and after years of trying he's clearly worn down. Same exact thing happened to those guys he needs a change of scenery

You can't make those comparisons because ALL of those guys consistently took their teams to the playoffs. How you're not getting that is beyond me. KG lost Marbury and Googs after the second year they made the
Playoffs...and still got them back there. Barkley consistently got the Sixers to the playoffs by himself and even won a round twice. And Gasol took the Grizz to the playoffs twice and once won 50 games.

Meanwhile, not only has Love never led the Wolves to the playoffs, he's never even led them to a .500 record!

No comparison between him and those guys.

 

[elindholm]

I don't think he needs to though. He just needs to improve his floater and his outside shot a little and even if he fails, he's still a dangerous offensive weapon.

Sure, but a "dangerous offensive weapon" plus a very good defender doesn't add up to a top-five player.

What did you see of KJ's defense that kept you from saying "yes, definitely"?

Well I can't remember Johnson's defense to a great level of detail, to be honest. I remember that he was regarded as an average defender but could also step up his defensive pressure "when needed." But the guy's best years were more than 20 years ago and I don't watch archive footage, so I can comment only vaguely on his defense.

IMO he's already a top 25 player even though he's never had a chance to start until this season.

Yeah, I really can't buy that either. Top-25 means All-Star. A couple of players on this year's All-Star rosters didn't deserve to be there, but the next few replacements in line were pretty obvious. So of the legitimate pool of this year's All-Stars, who do you rank Bledsoe above, based on his performance right now? Surely not Aldridge.

I just don't see any obvious flawsin his form.

Okay, but you say you watch every Suns game, and yet I'm guessing you also do something else with your life besides watch the NBA. So from that it follows that you don't follow other teams as closely as you do the Suns, and that you know more about Bledsoe than you do about other hot young combo guards in the league, Isaiah Thomas for example. Now I'll readily admit that I've seen very little of Thomas play, but on paper he and Bledsoe look pretty similar -- only that Thomas's shooting percentages are better. So, based on what you've seen from both players, what makes Bledsoe miles better than Thomas? Or are they both top-25 players right now, with a good chance to make the top five?

 

[Finito]

Dude the organization is garbage they've swung and missed on pretty much every draft pick other than Kevin love. You don't put up numbers like that in the NBA and be garbage. This era is a very deep western conference. So could the T Wolves make the playoffs in the east? So switch conferences and you flat out have no augment cause they would easily make the playoffs.

 

[Sunburn]

I'll say this about Bledsoe vs. Love. Last play of the game, my team needs a bucket, I'd rather the ball be in Bledsoe's hands than Love's.

 

[Catlover]

Sure, but a "dangerous offensive weapon" plus a very good defender doesn't add up to a top-five player.

Very good defender doesn't do him justice. Until I watched this team with Bledsoe I didn't realize that a guard could impact a defense to the extent Eric does. It's just incredible what he does out there for short stretches at a time. It's like watching Jordan when he'd clamp down in the last minutes of a close game (different size, different style but similar impact). He doesn't have quite the quick hands of Gary Payton for example but his strength, length, quickness and motor put him in a class by himself.

Well I can't remember Johnson's defense to a great level of detail, to be honest. I remember that he was regarded as an average defender but could also step up his defensive pressure "when needed." But the guy's best years were more than 20 years ago and I don't watch archive footage, so I can comment only vaguely on his defense.

I really didn't get to see much of him either, just the playoffs and a few games a year against the Lakers and the Clippers. I just have a memory of him being adequate at best defensively.

Yeah, I really can't buy that either. Top-25 means All-Star. A couple of players on this year's All-Star rosters didn't deserve to be there, but the next few replacements in line were pretty obvious. So of the legitimate pool of this year's All-Stars, who do you rank Bledsoe above, based on his performance right now? Surely not Aldridge.

I think he positively impacts the game at an equal or higher level than Joe Johnson, Roy Hibbert, Kyrie Irving, John Wall, Kevin Love, and Damian Lillard to name a few. I think he's a better all around player than Goran and I thought Dragic made a great case for the all star team himself.

Okay, but you say you watch every Suns game, and yet I'm guessing you also do something else with your life besides watch the NBA. So from that it follows that you don't follow other teams as closely as you do the Suns, and that you know more about Bledsoe than you do about other hot young combo guards in the league, Isaiah Thomas for example. Now I'll readily admit that I've seen very little of Thomas play, but on paper he and Bledsoe look pretty similar -- only that Thomas's shooting percentages are better. So, based on what you've seen from both players, what makes Bledsoe miles better than Thomas? Or are they both top-25 players right now, with a good chance to make the top five?

I don't watch much of the NBA other than Suns games. So yes, my assertion that he has top 5 potential does carry an element of the "it's the greatest restaurant anywhere" claim when made by someone that's never left his or her little corner of the world. I have a much better understanding of Eric's strengths and weaknesses than I do of someone like Isaiah Thomas. But I think this is true about most of us other than the small handful of professionals (scouts and such) that watch the game for a living.

As for Thomas, from what I've seen he's played very well this season. He's nowhere near Eric defensively but I could see reasons to compare their offensive games. They are each better at creating their own shot than they are for their teammates although pairing with someone like Cousins should make for a great two man game. Thomas doesn't have Eric's strength or size though which Eric uses to his advantage when he drives. Bledsoe is 3 or 4 inches taller than Isaiah but he has an even bigger advantage in wingspan. Eric is only 6 feet tall but he has the wingspan of a small forward, it's a quarter inch less than Gordon Hayward's for example.

 

[slinslin]

Dude the organization is garbage they've swung and missed on pretty much every draft pick other than Kevin love. You don't put up numbers like that in the NBA and be garbage. This era is a very deep western conference. So could the T Wolves make the playoffs in the east? So switch conferences and you flat out have no augment cause they would easily make the playoffs.

Uh yeah, great individual stats from a PF but his team still is terrible? His entire career? Yeah something is wrong clearly..

You are supposed to be one of the top 10 players in the NBA despite being one of the worst defenders in the league but still don't get the job done in crunch time considering the Wolves have one of the worst records in the league in close games?

Regularly choke away big leads?

Kevin Love is a great fantasy player, stat padder, but his contribution to winning is hard to see. Losing Rubio has effected the Wolves record more than losing Love.

 

[Zobaczcie suki]

If Dallas keeps playing like they did last night in their win over OKC, we may end up in the lottery yet. Of course, Portland is dropping like a rock and if they fall completely out, we are probably in the playoffs instead.

 

[Suns_fan69]

That would be quite the fall if Portland dropped out of the playoffs. Suns are only 2.5 games back from Portland with a game remaining in a couple weeks.

 

[Russ Smith]

Love is certainly not a good defensive player but this is a little silly. They'd be the 7th seed in the East right now with their record, that they're not in the playoffs is because they're in the West not because Love is a stat padder.

I don't know where to look and I'm not going to do the stats myself for a full season but I'm guessing if they were in the Eastern conference not the West they'd probably have a better record too, my guess is their record against Eastern teams is better than against the West?

Minnesota blows drafts every year, even when they pick a good player they trade him. The one time they got it right was trading Mayo for Love. They got set back several years taking Derrick Williams and waiting for him to be ready to play in the NBA, he's still not there. This year they tried to outsmart everyone and go get Bazz despite all the people(like me all year) pointing out he wasn't that good, so far he's been a bust for them. They have a bench full of guys like Budinger and Cunningham and Turiaf who are good role players on a good team but not good enough to help more on a team like the Wolves.

And their good players get hurt. Their 2nd and 3rd best player right now are Kevin martin and Pekovic.

Hollinger has Love 43rd in efficiency rating(5th if you count DeAndre Liggins and Tony Mitchell with almost no games played). The 2 guys ahead of him, Durant and LeBron.

they have too many marginal NBA players on that roster

 

[slinslin]

They have been below .500 all of Love's career.

West or East it does not matter they never were a playoff team.

 

[Catlover]

I'm somewhere in the middle on the Love argument. I think it's absurd to put him up there with Barkley, Garnett and other all time greats. It's true that he hasn't had a fair chance in Minnesota but he doesn't seem to elevate his team to the degree a real superstar would. That doesn't make him a bad player nor is he simply a stat padder. I think he's just a very good player with the numbers of a great player. IMO, he's definitely a max contract player which puts him no worse than roughly top 30.

 

[Finito]

It's comparing the situation guys who were good players on bad teams that at the end looked liked they have just had enough of the current situation.

I'm just going to agree to disagree on Love.

 

[elindholm]

I'm not a huge fan of advanced stats, but Love's defensive numbers are pretty scary. He allows a very high FG% at the rim, for example.

 

[Catlover]

It's comparing the situation guys who were good players on bad teams that at the end looked liked they have just had enough of the current situation.

I'm just going to agree to disagree on Love.

I missed that, it makes more sense now. I agree he's a good player on a bad team (or maybe mediocre team, this year at least). I just think if he really were a great player, his team would be better.

 

[Cheesebeef]

It's comparing the situation guys who were good players on bad teams that at the end looked liked they have just had enough of the current situation.

that's just it...Love isn't "at the end" here like Barkley (who was 30) or KG (who was 31) when they gave up. He's 25...and by the time those guys were 25, they were singlehandedly carrying teams to the playoffs year after year.

He's a good player on a bad team, but he's not an elite player and with as great as his stats are, they just don't make much of an impact on the game.

 

[Finito]

that's just it...Love isn't "at the end" here like Barkley (who was 30) or KG (who was 31) when they gave up. He's 25...and by the time those guys were 25, they were singlehandedly carrying teams to the playoffs year after year.

He's a good player on a bad team, but he's not an elite player and with as great as his stats are, they just don't make much of an impact on the game.

Those guys when they were 25 also had better teams around them both Barkley and KG played with all stars at points on those teams. Who's the second best player Love had ever had? Ill wait

It looks like the end for him there you can tell he's just had enough

 

[Catlover]

Those guys when they were 25 also had better teams around them both Barkley and KG played with all stars at points on those teams. Who's the second best player Love had ever had? Ill wait

It looks like the end for him there you can tell he's just had enough

Al Jefferson?

 

[Phrazbit]

Losing Rubio has effected the Wolves record more than losing Love.

You love saying this but its absolutely false.

Wolves record with Rubio last year: 18-39
Without Rubio: 13-12

Wolves Record with Love last year: 9-9
Without Love: 22-42

They're 0-3 this year without Love.

Its debatable if Love's lack of winning success can be blamed on his horrible horrible teammates, but he certainly has been burdened by one terrible team, and among the terrible teammates is Ricky Rubio.

 

[sunsfan88]

There is a higher chance of our shortest player Ish Smith protecting the rim than there is Love.

 

[Finito]

Al Jefferson?

They played 1 year together and that was Loves rookie year. Love want in position to be the man on that team. Since Love has been the man who's been the second best player he played with? Who's been his Robin?

The answer is nobody his teams have been flat out horrible. Anybody know what there record without Love is the last 3 years? I honestly don't know

 

[Catlover]

They played 1 year together and that was Loves rookie year. Love want in position to be the man on that team. Since Love has been the man who's been the second best player he played with? Who's been his Robin?

The answer is nobody his teams have been flat out horrible. Anybody know what there record without Love is the last 3 years? I honestly don't know

I really threw that name out as a joke. Rambis benched Love often that season (two seasons?) and they clearly decided the floor wasn't big enough for two offense-only bigs like Love and Jefferson.

He's had some talent around him, something on a par with Cleveland and without actually checking rosters I'd think it was slightly better than Lebron was usually surrounded by. It's unfair to expect him to equal what the greatest player of this era did but it does seem that he should have made them a little better than he has. I mostly worry about how poor they are when they close out games. Some of that has to fall on your star.

 

[slinslin]

His teams had more talent than the Suns recently but did not perform better .. on the opposite..

His teams also haven't played much worse when he was injured.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Those guys when they were 25 also had better teams around them both Barkley and KG played with all stars at points on those teams. Who's the second best player Love had ever had? Ill wait

I would LOVE to know who these All-Stars Barkley was playing with from 88-91 when he took his team to the playoffs three years in a row in the incredibly tough Eastern Conference, averaging 47 wins per year and winning a playoff series. I'll wait too.

as to KG, you can keep bringing up "Marbury and Googs", but he only made the playoffs with those guys in two years...and after they were gone, STILL put the team on his back and got them into the playoffs repeatedly.

Bottom line, Love doesn't compare to those guys in any way shape or form. They elevated their awful teams repeatedly into the playoffs in tough conferences. He can't even elevate his team to .500.