2014 Draft morphing

Cheesebeef

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For what it's worth, I agree with him. I would also be willing to bet that he has seen more games this year than you have.

I wouldn't. He lives in California, same as me. Bledsoe is a true game-changer, on both ends of the floor and is younger then Dragic. Getting rid of him for a "big" would be the height of stupidity (pun fully intended).

Goran and a good PF wouldn't elevate this team to contender status so why accelerate the building process to hopefully go from a .500 team (which is what this team is solely led by Goran) to .600 team with a big man? Let the building process take time and don't look for a quick fix to 50 and fade which is what trading Bledsoe would do for us.
 

Cheesebeef

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I am just saying that Dragic/Green/Love, for example, is a much better combo than Bledsoe/Dragic/Frye. Substitute Love for LMA or a similar player, or substitute Frye for Morris. And yes, I realize Love and LMA are likely not available, but we are talking hypothetical situations here.

any of these moves makes us a 50 and fade team. Why the hell would we want to do that instead of continuing to build the team? Dragic/Green/Love...ugh...that would be one of the worst defensive units in the league. And we're not going to get a LMA for Bledsoe (or any other player of LMA's worth) so you can't even go there.

There's no quick fix here...this is a building project that is going to take a couple years and we're wayyyyyyy ahead of the curve already. Trading Bledsoe for a "good" PF would make us moderately better but it's not going to get us even close to contending, so what's the point?
 

Mainstreet

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The Suns have already done a Dennis Johnson for Rick Robey trade. The only way it makes sense to trade Bledsoe is in a trade for a player like Kevin Love. Of course even then, the Wolves would want much more.
 

Catlover

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I've seen all but two games, and I would trade Bledsoe for a good PF in a heartbeat. Bledsoe is certainly an outstanding defender, and a good one on one isolation player. He is not a point guard (bellow average ball handling skills, a little bit too selfish), and he is not a shooting guard (can't shoot, too short). He makes Dragic worse, and I think Dragic makes him worse. They are just too similar to each other, even though Dragic has developed a good long-range shot.

I am just saying that Dragic/Green/Love, for example, is a much better combo than Bledsoe/Dragic/Frye. Substitute Love for LMA or a similar player, or substitute Frye for Morris. And yes, I realize Love and LMA are likely not available, but we are talking hypothetical situations here.

EDIT: Hell, substitute Dragic and Bledsoe even. Bledsoe/Green/Love is still better than Bledsoe/Dragic/Frye.

Health notwithstanding, I wouldn't trade Bledsoe for either LMA or Love. I doubt the Wolves or Blazers would be interested in a straight up deal either but I'm just so sick of offense only players. I'd rather find a way to hang onto our best two-way player since Dennis Johnson. Eric makes everyone else on our team better on both ends of the court. Right now, we're seeing little evidence of it because so many of our guys are way past their comfort zone in minutes played but we saw it back in November and December when they had fresher legs. We'll see it again next season too. I hope.
 

Catlover

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The Suns have already done a Dennis Johnson for Rick Robey trade. The only way it makes sense to trade Bledsoe is in a trade for a player like Kevin Love. Of course even then, the Wolves would want much more.

I was interrupted while typing my post by a cat fight otherwise my Dennis Johnson reference wouldn't have played second fiddle to yours. :)
 

Mainstreet

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Health notwithstanding, I wouldn't trade Bledsoe for either LMA or Love. I doubt the Wolves or Blazers would be interested in a straight up deal either but I'm just so sick of offense only players. I'd rather find a way to hang onto our best two-way player since Dennis Johnson. Eric makes everyone else on our team better on both ends of the court. Right now, we're seeing little evidence of it because so many of our guys are way past their comfort zone in minutes played but we saw it back in November and December when they had fresher legs. We'll see it again next season too. I hope.

I might do it for Love but not Aldridge. Anyway it's not likely to happen.

I think if the Suns went after BPA in the draft and added a solid player or two in free agency or trade, the Suns would be much improved next season. Dragic and Bledsoe are the Suns stars. I think some team will panic or go another direction and trade a near star quality player in the off season.
 
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Mainstreet

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I was interrupted while typing my post by a cat fight otherwise my Dennis Johnson reference wouldn't have played second fiddle to yours. :)

There was this loose ball on the floor. I grabbed it straight away and took it in for a dunk. :D
 

Catlover

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I might do it for Love but not Aldridge. Anyway it's not likely to happen.

I think if the Suns went after BPA in the draft and added a solid player or two in free agency or trade, the the Suns would be much improved next season. Dragic and Bledsoe are the Suns stars. I think some team will panic or go another direction and trade a near star quality player in the off season.

I think we're going to be much improved next season just from experience. It will be Len's first offseason/preseason and I'm hoping for a huge improvement from him. I also think that Plumlee is more like the player we saw at the start of the season than the man who struggled so badly in February.

What I'd really like to see happen this offseason is a multi-team trade which basically sees us parting with our pick, the Minny pick, the Indiana pick and next year's Lakers pick along with Channing and in return we get Noah. A starting lineup of Bledsoe, Dragic, Green, Noah and Len with Ish,draft pick/FA, Marcus, Markieff and Plumlee filling out the second unit is a team that could challenge for the championship IMO. I'd hate to lose Tucker but we'd need Green's outside threat in the starting lineup if we went this route. However it goes, I can't believe we're in this spot just a year removed from looking like the team least likely to succeed in the next decade.
 

Mainstreet

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I think we're going to be much improved next season just from experience. It will be Len's first offseason/preseason and I'm hoping for a huge improvement from him. I also think that Plumlee is more like the player we saw at the start of the season than the man who struggled so badly in February.

What I'd really like to see happen this offseason is a multi-team trade which basically sees us parting with our pick, the Minny pick, the Indiana pick and next year's Lakers pick along with Channing and in return we get Noah. A starting lineup of Bledsoe, Dragic, Green, Noah and Len with Ish,draft pick/FA, Marcus, Markieff and Plumlee filling out the second unit is a team that could challenge for the championship IMO. I'd hate to lose Tucker but we'd need Green's outside threat in the starting lineup if we went this route. However it goes, I can't believe we're in this spot just a year removed from looking like the team least likely to succeed in the next decade.

Do you think the Bulls are going to waive the white flag? Four potential first round picks is a lot of assets to give up for Noah.

Deal the cards. :)
 

SirStefan32

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Do you think the Bulls are going to waive the white flag? Four potential first round picks is a lot of assets to give up for Noah.

Deal the cards. :)

There is no chance in hell the Bulls trade Noah. I'd do it in a heartbeat, but I can't imagine the Bulls agreeing to that.
 

Mainstreet

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There is no chance in hell the Bulls trade Noah. I'd do it in a heartbeat, but I can't imagine the Bulls agreeing to that.

The Bulls are still living the dream with Rose under contract through 2016/17.
 

Catlover

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There is no chance in hell the Bulls trade Noah. I'd do it in a heartbeat, but I can't imagine the Bulls agreeing to that.

It's just an example of the kind of player I'd prefer to target this offseason. I have no reason to expect the Bulls to make him available but they've spent a lot of money these past few years and have failed to meet expectations (through no real fault of their own). I think it would take something drastic like Rose's recovery taking a turn for the worse and a first round playoff exit to an offensive minded Washington team but I could see it happening. OTOH I could just be blinded by hope.
 

Mainstreet

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The only way the Bulls give up on Noah is if they give up on Rose. Not likely. I think the Bulls still have their amnesty provision though.

If Rose should not be able to return to health, it could happen later.
 
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SirStefan32

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It's just an example of the kind of player I'd prefer to target this offseason. I have no reason to expect the Bulls to make him available but they've spent a lot of money these past few years and have failed to meet expectations (through no real fault of their own). I think it would take something drastic like Rose's recovery taking a turn for the worse and a first round playoff exit to an offensive minded Washington team but I could see it happening. OTOH I could just be blinded by hope.

I agree. Noah is exactly what the Suns need. He plays great D, he rebounds, he has a nasty streak to him, and he is an underrated playmaker. I just don't think the Bulls will let him go.

Bledsoe/Dragic/Tucker/Noah/Plumlee would be a nasty defensive lineup. They'd need some serious scoring off the bench, and one of the big guys would need to develop a reliable jumper, but I'd love to see that defense.
 

Finito

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Are you guys really serious. Lol. Some of you wouldn't trade Bledsoe for love or LMA are you crazy. Hes a defensive presents yeah defensive point guards don't really win championships. Can guard Lebron?, Duncan? Durant? George? Hibbert? No? OK. If that came up you do it in a Heart beat. However they would never do it you never trade big for small

Those little guys who play that all out crash the lane style don't have long careers and he already been hurt. I package him my Washington and Indiana pick to move up maybe get a crack at Julius Randle or McBuckets and take Cauley-stien with our pick. You hope Len gets better the physical talent is there and he's saying all the right things about staying in town this off season and just working on his game. If he comes around and say you get Cauley-Stien you got two legit 7'0 guys who are athletic as they come.

Cauley-Stien 7'0
Len 7'1
Randle 6'9

That has scary potential.
 

Cheesebeef

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Are you guys really serious. Lol. Some of you wouldn't trade Bledsoe for love or LMA are you crazy. Hes a defensive presents yeah defensive point guards don't really win championships. Can guard Lebron?, Duncan? Durant? George? Hibbert? No? OK. If that came up you do it in a Heart beat. However they would never do it you never trade big for small

Love is easily the most overrated stat padder in the league. The guy just isn't an impact player. Durant loses Westbrook...he leads them to 22-8 record. Noah loses Rose (and everyone else on his team) and he leads the Bulls back to the playoffs. Blake Griffith loses CP3 and they end up 15-8. Harden pretty much won 45 games single-handedly last year. meanwhile, Love's team has pretty healthy all season, was picked by some to make the playoffs, has a head coach who's been successful everywhere he's gone...and they can't even get to .500!

I wouldn't trade Bledsoe for him...not even if they gave us their pick unprotected. He's just a non-entity in the league, IMO.
 

Catlover

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Are you guys really serious. Lol. Some of you wouldn't trade Bledsoe for love or LMA are you crazy. Hes a defensive presents yeah defensive point guards don't really win championships. Can guard Lebron?, Duncan? Durant? George? Hibbert? No? OK. If that came up you do it in a Heart beat. However they would never do it you never trade big for small

Those little guys who play that all out crash the lane style don't have long careers and he already been hurt. I package him my Washington and Indiana pick to move up maybe get a crack at Julius Randle or McBuckets and take Cauley-stien with our pick. You hope Len gets better the physical talent is there and he's saying all the right things about staying in town this off season and just working on his game. If he comes around and say you get Cauley-Stien you got two legit 7'0 guys who are athletic as they come.

Cauley-Stien 7'0
Len 7'1
Randle 6'9

That has scary potential.

Not "some of you". It was just me that made that statement and I don't think I'm crazy. I wouldn't make that trade for LMA or Love. Laugh all you want but it isn't just what Bledsoe does to his man, it's what he does to everyone else on the court. He turns the ballhandler, forces him to pick up his dribble early, make the wrong pass, etc and all of this takes seconds off the clock. By the time the other team gets into their offense they have little time left to probe the defense.

His impact goes far beyond what you could normally expect from a defensive minded guard. He doesn't do this on every possession, it's too draining. But when he steps it up like this he often takes the other team completely out of it's rhythm. The injury risk is legitimate but strictly from a basketball perspective, I'd rather build around Bledsoe than LMA or especially Love. And the "never trade big for small" adage has lost traction in today's NBA.

I wouldn't mind Cauley-Stein but I don't think he'll ever be a good starter in the league. I'd liken him to Jordan Hill, a valuable role player. Maybe if he can add muscle in the right places but he has a poor base and he gets moved around almost as easily as Channing Frye does. He's a much better defender than Frye but he won't be able to hold his ground against the stronger back to the basket players in the NBA.

As for Randle, I'd stay away from him. Maybe he makes it and if he does he probably makes it big but if you just passed on every inside player with short arms you'd be a step up on most teams. He's a bull down low but until you see him try to score against grown men you really don't know if he'll be able to make up for his limited wingspan (he's not a great leaper either). I don't think I'd take that chance although if you get him into workouts against the right players maybe he can answer those questions before the draft.
 

elindholm

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The idea that the Suns could/should/would turn down a trade of Aldridge for Bledsoe, if by some inconceivable miracle Portland should make such an offer, is so far beyond the realm of rational thought that I simply don't know how even to engage it.
 

Finito

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Love is easily the most overrated stat padder in the league. The guy just isn't an impact player. Durant loses Westbrook...he leads them to 22-8 record. Noah loses Rose (and everyone else on his team) and he leads the Bulls back to the playoffs. Blake Griffith loses CP3 and they end up 15-8. Harden pretty much won 45 games single-handedly last year. meanwhile, Love's team has pretty healthy all season, was picked by some to make the playoffs, has a head coach who's been successful everywhere he's gone...and they can't even get to .500!

I wouldn't trade Bledsoe for him...not even if they gave us their pick unprotected. He's just a non-entity in the league, IMO.

That's just crazy. He's 26-12 on 46% shooting. Yeah his team is healthy but they suck. Rubio had never taken that step.All those teams are much more talented than that T-Wolves team. He's the only option on that team and still gets his. Have you heard him talk lately he seems broken. Remember KG that stat padder how many years that guy get bumped in the first round on those T Wolves teams. He's starting to sound like that stat padder Pau Gasol his last years in Memphis or when Barkley was padding his stats in Philly. This guy needs a change of scenery big time

You wouldn't take Love and an unprotected pick for Bledsoe smh wow
 

Catlover

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The idea that the Suns could/should/would turn down a trade of Aldridge for Bledsoe, if by some inconceivable miracle Portland should make such an offer, is so far beyond the realm of rational thought that I simply don't know how even to engage it.

Is the rhetoric really necessary? You could simply disagree and offer reasons to support your position. I think not making that trade is quite rational but that's because I value Bledsoe to a far greater degree than you do. What would fall beyond the realm of rational thought would be for me to suggest we trade Bledsoe, a player I've pegged as approaching his top 5 potential, for a player I wouldn't rank in the top 10.

I know I'm in the minority on this and I may well be wrong but I'm not willing to abandon my opinion merely because most people think otherwise. Especially since most people don't actually watch this guy play very often. I see a player that defends as well or better than Rondo and has the offensive potential of a Kevin Johnson. If he had some major flaw in his shooting stroke maybe I'd lower my expectations of him but it looks pretty good to me. Once he masters that mid-range floater and gets a little more consistent from distance he'll be unstoppable. And he's nearly unstoppable even without those skills.
 

Catlover

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That's just crazy. He's 26-12 on 46% shooting. Yeah his team is healthy but they suck. Rubio had never taken that step.All those teams are much more talented than that T-Wolves team. He's the only option on that team and still gets his. Have you heard him talk lately he seems broken. Remember KG that stat padder how many years that guy get bumped in the first round on those T Wolves teams. He's starting to sound like that stat padder Pau Gasol his last years in Memphis or when Barkley was padding his stats in Philly. This guy needs a change of scenery big time

You wouldn't take Love and an unprotected pick for Bledsoe smh wow

Garnett put his team on his back and took them to the playoffs regularly. There's no fault in losing every year to someone like a Tim Duncan in his prime. I don't know what Love is but at some point a great player ought to win some of these close games that Minnesota keeps losing. And there's just no way you can compare Love's success to the other guys you mentioned.
 

Finito

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Is the rhetoric really necessary? You could simply disagree and offer reasons to support your position. I think not making that trade is quite rational but that's because I value Bledsoe to a far greater degree than you do. What would fall beyond the realm of rational thought would be for me to suggest we trade Bledsoe, a player I've pegged as approaching his top 5 potential, for a player I wouldn't rank in the top 10.

I know I'm in the minority on this and I may well be wrong but I'm not willing to abandon my opinion merely because most people think otherwise. Especially since most people don't actually watch this guy play very often. I see a player that defends as well or better than Rondo and has the offensive potential of a Kevin Johnson. If he had some major flaw in his shooting stroke maybe I'd lower my expectations of him but it looks pretty good to me. Once he masters that mid-range floater and gets a little more consistent from distance he'll be unstoppable. And he's nearly unstoppable even without those skills.

Players like him don't last long. That crash the lane style his body has already gave out once and if he loses a step it's over for him because he doesn't have the technical skills to last. You have a PG in Dragic already who is much more traditional and shows tremendous promise.

I think Cauley-Stein reminds me of a Tyson Chandler he's going to need to put on weight remember Tyson was a stick when he came into the league.

I also really like Cleanthony Early he's just so smooth but he's probably the best post player in the draft also
 

Finito

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Garnett put his team on his back and took them to the playoffs regularly. There's no fault in losing every year to someone like a Tim Duncan in his prime. I don't know what Love is but at some point a great player ought to win some of these close games that Minnesota keeps losing. And there's just no way you can compare Love's success to the other guys you mentioned.

Garnett had help Marbury and Googs were both all stars on those teams and Garnett caught hell I think he went like 5 years in a row getting bounced out the first round. The comparisons to Barkley, KG and Gasol are very legit there in the exact same position you cannot do it by yourself and after years of trying he's clearly worn down. Same exact thing happened to those guys he needs a change of scenery
 

Catlover

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Players like him don't last long. That crash the lane style his body has already gave out once and if he loses a step it's over for him because he doesn't have the technical skills to last. You have a PG in Dragic already who is much more traditional and shows tremendous promise.

You write Bledsoe off because of how he goes to the hoop but Dragic does the same thing and hits the floor hard at least as often as Eric does. I worry about Bledsoe's longevity but Dragic carries that same risk IMO. I agree that the loss of a step ruins Bledsoe's game but you can write off just about every athlete using the same reasoning. Is he a slightly bigger risk? Perhaps.

I don't think Goran is any more of a traditional point guard than Eric is though. They both have similar weaknesses trying to run an offense but together their strengths more than offset their individual shortcomings. Despite losing Bledsoe, Goran's assist numbers hovered around 6 per game all season. If he were a true point guard those numbers would have shot up IMO.

I think Cauley-Stein reminds me of a Tyson Chandler he's going to need to put on weight remember Tyson was a stick when he came into the league.

Tyson was thin but he had the hips, buttocks and thighs to build on. I don't see that with Willie. Like I said, I like him but I just don't see him as a better than average starter and that's at his peak. Unless he develops a three point shot and becomes the next Channing Frye in which case his other skills would make him a much better option than Channing.

I also really like Cleanthony Early he's just so smooth but he's probably the best post player in the draft also

He's one of the players that I thought we'd have a chance at with the Indiana pick but I think he might have helped his stock enough to move him out of that range. I think he's a small forward in the NBA though.
 

elindholm

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Is the rhetoric really necessary?

Well, no, of course not; it's not necessary that I post at all, or that you read my posts.

You could simply disagree and offer reasons to support your position.

Bledsoe is a player without a position. He's a classic undersized "combo guard" who isn't enough of a distributor to be a PG and doesn't shoot well enough to be a SG. Over the last 25 years, I can think of only one player in the Bledsoe mold who has been a top-five player in the league, and that's Allen Iverson. And while it's true that I haven't watched every Suns game this year, I've seen enough of Bledsoe to know that he's no Iverson.

I think not making that trade is quite rational but that's because I value Bledsoe to a far greater degree than you do. What would fall beyond the realm of rational thought would be for me to suggest we trade Bledsoe, a player I've pegged as approaching his top 5 potential, for a player I wouldn't rank in the top 10.

There's a difference between rational and logically consistent. Your unwillingness to part with Bledsoe is consistent with the premise that he is (nearly) destined to become a top-five player. But that premise, in my opinion, is faulty.

I know I'm in the minority on this and I may well be wrong but I'm not willing to abandon my opinion merely because most people think otherwise.

And I'm not willing to abandon mine just because a few people think otherwise.

If he had some major flaw in his shooting stroke maybe I'd lower my expectations of him but it looks pretty good to me.

Well it's hard to give that statement a lot of weight unless you have some track record of successfully evaluating the shooting form of NBA players, and if you have that, you haven't shared it. His numbers are what they are. He's not a good shooter. He's a career 32% shooter from three-point range and 76% from the line.

Now Kevin Johnson wasn't a good three-point shooter either, but he shot 84% from the line and better than 50% overall for his career, which is astounding for a PG. Oh, and throw in 9.1 assists per game, good for sixth on the all-time list. So you say Bledsoe is a better defender, yes, probably, but he has nowhere near Johnson's charisma as a leader.

By the time Johnson was Bledsoe's current age, he had already logged seasons of 19/11 and 22/11 and made an All-Star team. Your assessment of Bledsoe is based on what you imagine he might become. That's fine, but there's no strong evidence that convinces me to buy into that dream.

Once he masters that mid-range floater and gets a little more consistent from distance he'll be unstoppable.

Why are you so confident assuming that those things will happen? Shooting a basketball is damn hard. Lots of superb basketball players never get very good at it. You don't get to be a good shooter, by NBA standards, just by wanting it. It isn't just desire and experience that sets someone like Stephen Curry apart from the Bledose ranks.
 
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