2015-16 Around the NBA

[slinslin]

Any thoughts about Dragan Bender (PF). He would seem to fill an area of need and he is projected to be about where the Suns are drafting.

He is a project and as far as a player he is more of a scrappy hustle type than skill player.

A lot of comparisons I have heard liken him more as a Kirilenko/Vesely type player.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Any thoughts about Dragan Bender (PF). He would seem to fill an area of need and he is projected to be about where the Suns are drafting.

I think Bender is big-time bust potential. He does a lot of things, but none of them as good as Porzingis except maybe passing. Porzingis is taller, a better shooter, more athletic, a better defender etc. That puts those two players in competely different categories IMO.

 

[GatorAZ]

I think Bender is big-time bust potential. He does a lot of things, but none of them as good as Porzingis except maybe passing. Porzingis is taller, a better shooter, more athletic, a better defender etc. That puts those two players in competely different categories IMO.

Wouldn't say Porzingis is more athletic. Bender is two years younger and his fluidity and coordination is nuts for that size and age.

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[slinslin]

Porzingis is more athletic relative to size, definitely. Bender has a 27" vertical..

Bender has a high bust chance but at #4 you might be forced to roll the dice on Dragan Bender.

I don't think Porzingis was a better defender though. Defense, hustle, scrappiness are the things that Bender generally gets rated highly while he gets criticiszed for post defense/rebounding/physical play. His offensive game is not smooth though imo, poor shooter, not much of scorer so far.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Dragan-Bender-62877/
The videos here will give you a better idea than a selective highlight clip vs youth competition.

 

[3rdside]

He is extremely effective without Wade- I don't think anyone reasonable would disagree with that. Most of the valid criticism comes from his age, his contract, and inability to be effective when he doesn't dictate the tempo and has the ball in his hands.

Criticisms he looks like he's about to blow wide open.

Again, this is not dragic-worship, it's McD fatal flaw highlighting - i just get a feeling that when we come to next year and realise the inadequacies of Knight and Bledsoe (along with the rest of the team; draft picks are great but the talent seems to have been traded away..), we're going to start wishing we had him back, even at $18m.

 

[slinslin]

Criticisms he looks like he's about to blow wide open.

Again, this is not dragic-worship, it's McD fatal flaw highlighting - i just get a feeling that when we come to next year and realise the inadequacies of Knight and Bledsoe (along with the rest of the team; draft picks are great but the talent seems to have been traded away..), we're going to start wishing we had him back, even at $18m.

Puhlease, Bledsoe had a way better season than Dragic until the injury, way better.

Criticisms he looks like he's about to blow wide open.

Again, this is not dragic-worship, it's McD fatal flaw highlighting - i just get a feeling that when we come to next year and realise the inadequacies of Knight and Bledsoe (along with the rest of the team; draft picks are great but the talent seems to have been traded away..), we're going to start wishing we had him back, even at $18m.

Puhlease, Bledsoe had a way better season than Dragic until the injury, way better.

And please sample size.. It is 2 games you are talking about.

In the first game Deng lead the team with 30/10 and Josh McRoberts had 19 points 6 rebounds 10 assists 1 turnover.
In the second game Deng lead the team with 27/10/4 and Whiteside had 25/23 against a team that was on the road in a situation where they played 3 games in 3 nights.

In the third game Wade was back.

The bottom line is that Dragic is making 16M$+ and averaging 13/4/5 47%FG and 32%3s.

He has han offensive rating of 103. The Heat offensive rating as a team is 103, so they are performing just as well offensively wether Dragic is on the floor or not.
His defensive rating is 106, the Teams rating is 103, so they are playing worse defense when he is on the court.

That is a net loss overall.

Not only that, a week ago many Miami fans were hoping he would get traded.

 

[3rdside]

until the injury.

You said it.

I'd save your over confidence until either Dragic busts, or Bledsoe leads us through a respectable season, neither of which have happened.

 

[Phrazbit]

This stuff cracks me up. Dragic has been mediocre for about 90% of his career, Miami paid him based on what he did for part of one season, he has been there for a full year now and been below average starter for essentially that entire time... but hey! He just had 3 straight games where he wasn't lousy! Dude is a star again! Its the rest of his career that was the fluke!

 

[slinslin]

You said it.

I'd save your over confidence until either Dragic busts, or Bledsoe leads us through a respectable season, neither of which have happened.

When has Dragic lead a team to a respectable season?

Oh right, never.

 

[3rdside]

This stuff cracks me up. Dragic has been mediocre for about 90% of his career, Miami paid him based on what he did for part of one season, he has been there for a full year now and been below average starter for essentially that entire time... but hey! He just had 3 straight games where he wasn't lousy! Dude is a star again! Its the rest of his career that was the fluke!

Wasn't lousy? He was excellent, like he was in 13-14, and I think you'll find i've not proclaimed him to be anything based on three games. I've used 'looks like', 'can't categorically say', 'dragic might bust' etc so to suggest I'm calling him 'a star again' is, pretty clearly, a one-eyed interpretation.

I'm fully open to the fact that you might be right, however I have my reasons for thinking you're not - and I'd like to think of myself as someone reasonably informed and rational - so for someone so vocal on here to trivialise this, I have to say I expected better.

 

[3rdside]

When has Dragic lead a team to a respectable season?

Oh right, never.

For someone that has no understanding of how to interpret statistics, this comment fits you perfectly.

 

[slinslin]

For someone that has no understanding of how to interpret statistics, this comment fits you perfectly.

So you have no answer? as expected.

 

[3rdside]

So you have no answer? as expected.

You're that challenged?

2-0-1-3 / 2-0-1-4

 

[Phrazbit]

Wasn't lousy? He was excellent, like he was in 13-14, and I think you'll find i've not proclaimed him to be anything based on three games. I've used 'looks like', 'can't categorically say', 'dragic might bust' etc so to suggest I'm calling him 'a star again' is, pretty clearly, a one-eyed interpretation.

I'm fully open to the fact that you might be right, however I have my reasons for thinking you're not - and I'd like to think of myself as someone reasonably informed and rational - so for someone so vocal on here to trivialise this, I have to say I expected better.

Personally, I find such a small sample size to be trivial when a guy like Dragic has such a large body of work which so profoundly suggests he is mediocre. Even in 2013/14, when Bledsoe went out and Dragic became the focal point the team became MUCH worse in the win/loss column. A Dragic centered team has a pretty low ceiling.

I think the odds of the Suns regretting that transaction to be extremely slim, and not just because of his play thus far, but because Dragic is a guy who relies almost entirely on his quickness and he is about to be on the wrong side of 30.

 

[slinslin]

You're that challenged?

2-0-1-3 / 2-0-1-4

What did he lead there?

They accomplished their record in the first half of the season and Bledsoe was the Suns #1 player for that stretch. It was Bledsoe who was getting allstar attention at that point.

It was not until Bledsoe went down that Dragic elevated this game and people started talking a little bit about him as a potential allstar. Of course he was not an allstar because as I said for the most part of that early season Bledsoe was getting the attention.

When Dragic started to lead in that season the Suns played .500 ball for the rest of the season. How is that respectable?

These are facts.
Case closed.

 

[3rdside]

Personally, I find such a small sample size to be trivial when a guy like Dragic has such a large body of work which so profoundly suggests he is mediocre. Even in 2013/14, when Bledsoe went out and Dragic became the focal point the team became MUCH worse in the win/loss column. A Dragic centered team has a pretty low ceiling.

I think the odds of the Suns regretting that transaction to be extremely slim[, and not just because of his play thus far, but because Dragic is a guy who relies almost entirely on his quickness and he is about to be on the wrong side of 30.

Which is a strongly legitimate reason to have doubts; I'm obviously going out on a limb with my stance but it's one I can't let go of (and yes, you could also call me a little vindictive towards McD..).

About the trade, I can't see how, if we'd built on Dragic and Bledsoe (it could easily have been the two of them generating the synergistic results that we witnessed, and not Dragic by himself) - and not acquired IT of course - we wouldn't be in a better situation than we are now; we suck, we have questionable talent at the 1, 3, 4 and 5, we're years away from competing barring a trade (noting that the Dragic and Kieff episodes have tarnished the club badly, hardly making us a dream destination going forward), and Bledose and Dragic at $18m (and the Lakers pick if we're being picky) is surely better than Bledsoe and Knight at $14m (and no pick..) based on experience to date.

That being said, even if we did keep Dragic, the star of the show in all of this is McD (featuring Jeff Hornacek) who, also based on experience to date, could easily have found a way to turn a good thing bad.

 

[3rdside]

What did he lead there?

They accomplished their record in the first half of the season and Bledsoe was the Suns #1 player for that stretch. It was Bledsoe who was getting allstar attention at that point.

It was not until Bledsoe went down that Dragic elevated this game and people started talking a little bit about him as a potential allstar. Of course he was not an allstar because as I said for the most part of that early season Bledsoe was getting the attention.

When Dragic started to lead in that season the Suns played .500 ball for the rest of the season. How is that respectable?

These are facts.
Case closed.

And magic johnson is not a point guard.

 

[slinslin]

And magic johnson is not a point guard.

See, you have no argument.

 

[3rdside]

See, you have no argument.

Did we overachieve in 13-14?
If we did, who were the key players on that team?
If there were two key players on that team, which one of them played the full season?

That's my argument.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Can't deny Dragics success in 13/14. It's just clear he has to be the pg and a ball dominant pg scoring a lot to be successful. That might barely get a team into the playoffs. There is no chance that kind of play from him will compete even for a conference championship.

 

[Errntknght]

Can't deny Dragics success in 13/14. It's just clear he has to be the pg and a ball dominant pg scoring a lot to be successful. That might barely get a team into the playoffs. There is no chance that kind of play from him will compete even for a conference championship.

I don't think its possible to say that Goran's play would limit an overall good team from competing at the top level. A lot of his ball domination in the half court was due to Hornacek's offense - it was basically limited to iso plays and pick & roll/pop. With Bledsoe gone there was no one else to help carry the load, except for isolating Markieff for a midrange jumper now and then. Heck, that team would have made the playoffs if Plumlee hadn't quit playing and Frye suddenly couldn't hit the three. It didn't help that Horny wouldn't play a center at all in the 4th quarters, knocking the crap out of our rebounding.
The only problem with Goran was his age in conjunction with the fact that we were four or five years away from starting to contend - assuming things went well.

 

[sunsfan88]

I don't think its possible to say that Goran's play would limit an overall good team from competing at the top level. A lot of his ball domination in the half court was due to Hornacek's offense - it was basically limited to iso plays and pick & roll/pop. With Bledsoe gone there was no one else to help carry the load, except for isolating Markieff for a midrange jumper now and then. Heck, that team would have made the playoffs if Plumlee hadn't quit playing and Frye suddenly couldn't hit the three. It didn't help that Horny wouldn't play a center at all in the 4th quarters, knocking the crap out of our rebounding.
The only problem with Goran was his age in conjunction with the fact that we were four or five years away from starting to contend - assuming things went well.

What's funny is that team wasn't such a failure. It won 48 games despite missing Bledsoe. Not an exaggeration to say that it would have won at least 55 games with Bledsoe.

Hell even winning 48 games would likely be enough to get a 6th or 7th seed in the West playoffs this season. The West was just incredibly tough that year.

I always wonder what would have happened had they left that team intact and not brought in IT with the only addition perhaps being Warren or preferably Hood from the draft.

 

[Catlover]

I don't think its possible to say that Goran's play would limit an overall good team from competing at the top level. A lot of his ball domination in the half court was due to Hornacek's offense - it was basically limited to iso plays and pick & roll/pop. With Bledsoe gone there was no one else to help carry the load, except for isolating Markieff for a midrange jumper now and then. Heck, that team would have made the playoffs if Plumlee hadn't quit playing and Frye suddenly couldn't hit the three. It didn't help that Horny wouldn't play a center at all in the 4th quarters, knocking the crap out of our rebounding.
The only problem with Goran was his age in conjunction with the fact that we were four or five years away from starting to contend - assuming things went well.

He did play centers in the 4th quarter but I understand your point, we closed the game most of the time without one of the two big guys. But what was the Coach supposed to do? We played better with Frye and Markieff on the court and it was the bad things that happened while Plumlee or Len were out there that forced Jeff to leave those guys on the bench in crunch time. We lost some close games because we couldn't grab a rebound or stop a big guy down low but when he went the other way we still lost, we just lost by a much larger margin. Also, attributing Goran's play to Jeff's schemes ignores all the other evidence that was generated while he played for other head coaches.

But yes, we might have made the playoffs if Plumlee and Frye hadn't dropped off a cliff although it wouldn't have been on the strength of the team's play during Bledsoe's absence. With Bledsoe alongside Dragic we won two-thirds of our games and if they'd been able to continue to win at about a .525 clip without Eric, that probably would have sufficed to get us into the postseason. But it's tough to blame Goran for not being able to carry us into the playoffs, few guards in this league would have been able to do even as much as he did with such limited support. Still, given his price tag and age, separation was the right thing even if both sides handled it poorly.

 

[Catlover]

What's funny is that team wasn't such a failure. It won 48 games despite missing Bledsoe. Not an exaggeration to say that it would have won at least 55 games with Bledsoe.

Hell even winning 48 games would likely be enough to get a 6th or 7th seed in the West playoffs this season. The West was just incredibly tough that year.

I always wonder what would have happened had they left that team intact and not brought in IT with the only addition perhaps being Warren or preferably Hood from the draft.

I think we would have been better, slightly, but the loss of Frye would still have killed us. Or, put another way, not replacing his maturity and his ability to draw the big man out of the key would have killed us. Tolleson or whatever his name was just wasn't the answer, and neither was Marcus or Markieff.

But in the end, I believe it would have turned out much the same. We'd have hung on to the Lakers pick and not traded for Knight which is a definite plus in my view. But we'd have ended up with the 14th pick probably and Booker would be playing in Oklahoma City (maybe), so I'd call that a minus. And Goran would have signed a big free agent contract in LA, Miami or New York which would be another minus since we wouldn't have landed 2 first round picks for him. And the other plus is that we probably would have had a lot less egg on our face. I don't know how that all adds up, maybe it's a wash?

It's just my opinion but I don't believe he was staying in Phoenix regardless. His support group knew that we were years from contending and that was his big chance for huge money and the spotlight. If the rumors are true, while Goran might not have longed for the limelight, his bride certainly did. I think he only forced the midseason deal because his play was hurting his chances to get that big free agent deal.

 

[slinslin]

I don't think its possible to say that Goran's play would limit an overall good team from competing at the top level. A lot of his ball domination in the half court was due to Hornacek's offense - it was basically limited to iso plays and pick & roll/pop. With Bledsoe gone there was no one else to help carry the load, except for isolating Markieff for a midrange jumper now and then. Heck, that team would have made the playoffs if Plumlee hadn't quit playing and Frye suddenly couldn't hit the three. It didn't help that Horny wouldn't play a center at all in the 4th quarters, knocking the crap out of our rebounding.
The only problem with Goran was his age in conjunction with the fact that we were four or five years away from starting to contend - assuming things went well.

What's funny is that team wasn't such a failure. It won 48 games despite missing Bledsoe. Not an exaggeration to say that it would have won at least 55 games with Bledsoe.

Hell even winning 48 games would likely be enough to get a 6th or 7th seed in the West playoffs this season. The West was just incredibly tough that year.

I always wonder what would have happened had they left that team intact and not brought in IT with the only addition perhaps being Warren or preferably Hood from the draft.

They made their record when Bledsoe was healthy and leading the team that is the thing.
Goran was pretty much in the role he had in 14/15 minus Isaiah Thomas, a role that he did not accept.

I don't think any of Gorans teams ever accomplished a solid winning record while he was the highest usage player.