2018-19 Season | Point Guard Discussion

[Chaplin]

They're both better than any point guard we currently have on the roster...

Wow. Prove THAT. I would say if they are better it is MINIMALLY over Canaan and Shaq.

Love it how Suns fans think ANY point guard in the entire league is better than all 4 of ours.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

.

Love it how Suns fans think ANY point guard in the entire league is better than all 4 of ours.

Not exactly a stretch to think that.

 

[Cheesebeef]

This has been true in the past except McDonough has tightened the belt considerably in trading away draft picks. Trading away the future Miami pick was a bit of a surprise though.

I don't know how you can say this has been true in the past... but has tightened the belt considerably, while following that sentence up with him JUST jettisoning the Miami pick this summer. You're literally contradicting yourself within two sentences.

 

[Hoop Head]

Wow. Prove THAT. I would say if they are better it is MINIMALLY over Canaan and Shaq.

Love it how Suns fans think ANY point guard in the entire league is better than all 4 of ours.

Payton is a better PG than Shaq and Canaan. He may not be considerably better but he did post better numbers last season while with the Suns. The problem with retaining him is it would have cost the Suns too much because we had to pull his qualifying offer to release his cap hold and I don't believe a team can sign a player after rescinding a qualifying offer like that. He ended up signing with New Orleans for $2.7 million this season, which is about the same cost of Shaq and Canaan. If the Suns wanted to keep him it would have cost his qualifying offer which was about $6.5 million and he wasn't worth that much. Plus keeping him on that cap number would have interfered with signing Ariza.

Jarrett Jack has had a much better career than either of them but it's debatable if he's better than them now. He's been around for a bit and would provide more experience at PG, if nothing else.

 

[GatorAZ]

Has Beverly been playing in any summer scrimmages on YouTube? How do we know he’s even healthy?

 

[AzStevenCal]

Payton is a better PG than Shaq and Canaan. He may not be considerably better but he did post better numbers last season while with the Suns.

Did he? Looking at their stats this does appear to be debatable. His scoring and assist number are higher but when you adjust for minutes played, there's not much difference. And Payton was behind both of them in a lot of the advanced stats including PER. I think Elfrid is the better player too but I'm not at all sure that he proved that this past season.

 

[Yuma]

If just wanting a PG with experience were the only measure, we would have just kept Knight.

I think the Suns looking is a sign they are not happy or satisfied with the PGs they have, for whatever reasons.

That said, I was more a Spencer Dinwiddie fan, but I am guessing he's not as good a fit in the "system" we have now.

Basically, if we wait, how long can Clippers keep all those PGs on their roster? If we miss on Beverly, would not his movement to another team and other PGs mentioned being moved start a domino effect with someone falling to the Suns, or becoming worth the second round picks we are dangling?

I am kinda in the patience camp.

Realistically say Booker misses a week or two of the regular season and has to work his way back onto the team, arguably we would be playing just to scrap out a few wins. So what's the hurry to have a PG until Booker is back and playing well anyway? Maybe by that time we have a new gun for hire?

 

[1Sun]

If just wanting a PG with experience were the only measure, we would have just kept Knight.

I think the Suns looking is a sign they are not happy or satisfied with the PGs they have, for whatever reasons.

That said, I was more a Spencer Dinwiddie fan, but I am guessing he's not as good a fit in the "system" we have now.

Basically, if we wait, how long can Clippers keep all those PGs on their roster? If we miss on Beverly, would not his movement to another team and other PGs mentioned being moved start a domino effect with someone falling to the Suns, or becoming worth the second round picks we are dangling?

I am kinda in the patience camp.

Realistically say Booker misses a week or two of the regular season and has to work his way back onto the team, arguably we would be playing just to scrap out a few wins. So what's the hurry to have a PG until Booker is back and playing well anyway? Maybe by that time we have a new gun for hire?

We need to keep the young core playing with good habits and attitude and not place unnecessary obstacles in the way of their development. That means getting a viable point guard sooner, rather thsn later, so they can use training camp to develop chemistry.

 

[Yuma]

We need to keep the young core playing with good habits and attitude and not place unnecessary obstacles in the way of their development. That means getting a viable point guard sooner, rather thsn later, so they can use training camp to develop chemistry.

Oh I get that. That's the ideal. However there are several articles saying that teams know the Suns want this. So they are trying to get them to overpay with a first rounder when there are not first round pick guys in return.

Don't other teams have to trim their rosters too? The minute teams realize we are going to training camp with who we have, and they are going to get rid of a guy for nothing, then their perception changes and they are like, well maybe I can get a second rounder or two from the Suns before I just waive this guy.

 

[Phrazbit]

Payton is a better PG than Shaq and Canaan. He may not be considerably better but he did post better numbers last season while with the Suns. The problem with retaining him is it would have cost the Suns too much because we had to pull his qualifying offer to release his cap hold and I don't believe a team can sign a player after rescinding a qualifying offer like that. He ended up signing with New Orleans for $2.7 million this season, which is about the same cost of Shaq and Canaan. If the Suns wanted to keep him it would have cost his qualifying offer which was about $6.5 million and he wasn't worth that much. Plus keeping him on that cap number would have interfered with signing Ariza.

Jarrett Jack has had a much better career than either of them but it's debatable if he's better than them now. He's been around for a bit and would provide more experience at PG, if nothing else.

I disagree. Payton is full on terrible. He cannot shoot at all, he does not play any semblance of defense, me might have a decent assist to turnover but he clearly isn't good at actually running an offense.

In a mere 540 minutes of playing time the Suns were obliterated by 245 points with Payton on the court. We were outscored 99 to 120 per 100 possessions with him in the game, as a team we were worse in ever single category on both ends of the court. On the surface his stats are merely... sub par, dig deeper and Elfrid Payton is a travesty. Similarly, the Magic had their scoring margin double (in the wrong direction) with Payton on the court.

I'm not high on our point guard rotation, it's 2 d-league guys and 2 round rounders, but I wouldn't touch Payton with a 10 foot pole.

There was no player to wear a Suns uniform last season that dragged the team down worse than Payton.

 

[Hoop Head]

Did he? Looking at their stats this does appear to be debatable. His scoring and assist number are higher but when you adjust for minutes played, there's not much difference. And Payton was behind both of them in a lot of the advanced stats including PER. I think Elfrid is the better player too but I'm not at all sure that he proved that this past season.

Elfrid did get a couple of triple doubles here, for all that's worth. He actually played well for the first 3-4 weeks with the Suns. Something happened and his minutes were cut before he was benched because he was playing around 35 minutes a game through his first 9 games and then dropped off and down to 25 minutes a game through his last 10 games with the Suns. He missed the final 7 games with an "injury" but I don't recall what that was.

The stretch that he sucked does actually match up with Booker and Warren's injuries though. They both missed a number of games in Payton's 10 game stretch where he sucked out loud before he was "injured" for the final stretch of the season. We were obviously tanking at that point also. Payton is/was a pass first point guard and missing our 2 best scorers, who were also 2 of the only legit scorers on the team hurt him a bit.

When he was acquired and even in his first first game he looked good. He kept that up for a little while also. He had a 9 game run starting on February 10th where he averaged 16.4 ppg, 8 boards, 8.2 assists, 1.1 steals, 3.4 turnovers all while shooting 48% from the field with 29% from 3pt range and only 1.6 3's attempted a game in 34.5 mpg. That went on until March 4th.

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The final 10 games he played were quite bad and he only played in 30 minutes or more just once throughout that final stretch before being sat after the March 26th game. He was "injured" for the final 7 games the Suns played. That 10 game stretch of his was really bad though. He averaged 7.6 ppg, 2.8 rebounds, 4.4 apg, 0.9 steals, with 2.3 turnovers on 38% FG shooting, 09% from 3pt range on 1.1 attempts. That was all in 24.1 minutes a game.

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Pulled those numbers from BasketballReference. I don't believe Harrison is capable of matching Payton's first stretch of games with us. Canaan could probably do it for a game or two but I wouldn't expect more than that. He did us a boost when he joined the team for a game or two but that wore off quickly.

 

[BC867]

There was no player to wear a Suns uniform last season that dragged the team down worse than Payton.

So, Al won't be able to say, "It's a Payton to Ayton swisheroo for two."

 

[Superbone]

So, Al won't be able to say, "It's a Payton to Ayton swisheroo for two."

No, but he's probably going to start calling Talking Stick Resort Arena, "Ayton Place".

 

[sunsfan88]

^I won’t miss that.

 

[sunsfan88]

Clippers are pretty ridiculous for thinking they can bet a 1st for a 30 yr PG coming off ACL and is on the last yr of his deal.

Not even McDonough is stupid enough to do that.

 

[sunsfan88]

What exactly can Beverly do better than Shaq Harrison?

Harrison looked pretty good last season and appeared to improve his game some with what he showed in summer league as well.

He has better size than Beverly and will be significantly cheaper than Bev to keep long term as well since Beverly is in the last year of his deal.

Not to mention guys like Okobo and Melton have high potential as well.

I hope we just stand PAT and go into the season with the roster we have.

 

[Hoop Head]

Clippers are pretty ridiculous for thinking they can bet a 1st for a 30 yr PG coming off ACL and is on the last yr of his deal.

Not even McDonough is stupid enough to do that.

Microfracture not ACL. ACL would actually be more appealing, I think. Especially for Suns fans given what we've seen microfracture do.

 

[Carolinacacti]

I think Okobo is going to surprise people. Just to piss off 1Sun and the hater Cheese.

 

[1Sun]

What exactly can Beverly do better than Shaq Harrison?

Harrison looked pretty good last season and appeared to improve his game some with what he showed in summer league as well.

He has better size than Beverly and will be significantly cheaper than Bev to keep long term as well since Beverly is in the last year of his deal.

Not to mention guys like Okobo and Melton have high potential as well.

I hope we just stand PAT and go into the season with the roster we have.

Pass and shoot. Harrison looked so-so last season, but in my opinion he was a disaster in Summer League, especially on offense and especially in terms of involving his teammates and facilitating Igor Kokoskov's offense.

Okobo and Melton do have potential, but neither is anywhere near NBA ready (though Melton did play circles around Harrison in Summer League). Frankly, both could use at least a season in the G League to get used to playing better competition and at a higher level and speed than their last level of competition.

 

[1Sun]

I think Okobo is going to surprise people. Just to piss off 1Sun and the hater Cheese.

He couldn't keep up in Summer League. What makes you think he'll be anywhere near ready for regular season NBA?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think Okobo is going to surprise people. Just to piss off 1Sun and the hater Cheese.

Cheese doesn’t hate okobo he just doesn’t expect the kid to be ready. Neither do most sane knowledgeable basketball fans.

 

[SirStefan32]

Yeah, there is a big difference between being a "hater" and being objective. I am also 100% sure that ALL of us would be thrilled to be wrong about any of the players not being very good and/or ready.

 

[1Sun]

Cheese doesn’t hate okobo he just doesn’t expect the kid to be ready. Neither do most sane knowledgeable basketball fans.

This. I actually really like Okobo. I just think he's at least 2-3 years from being ready, and in my opinion it actually could hurt his development to force him into action when he's nowhere near ready. Same goes for Melton (though he appears more NBA ready than Okobo, at least if Summer League is any indication).

 

[Hoop Head]

I don't think it's the same with Okobo but the Suns did try to push Barbosa as a PG early in his career also and I don't think that did him any favors. He did turn things around and became a solid 6th man combo guard but I think he could have contributed from day 1 as a scorer of sorts while taking their time and letting him learn to make the right reads and plays as a PG over time. Knowing Okobo was a SG last year has me worried they'll repeat past mistakes. It's a new regime entirely though. Hopefully they can make it all work.

 

[1Sun]

I don't think it's the same with Okobo but the Suns did try to push Barbosa as a PG early in his career also and I don't think that did him any favors. He did turn things around and became a solid 6th man combo guard but I think he could have contributed from day 1 as a scorer of sorts while taking their time and letting him learn to make the right reads and plays as a PG over time. Knowing Okobo was a SG last year has me worried they'll repeat past mistakes. It's a new regime entirely though. Hopefully they can make it all work.

Actually, Okobo very much reminds me of Barbosa. From Day 1 that has been my NBA comparison for him.