2021-22 Suns Depth Chart

[Yuma]

Phoenix Suns (2018)[edit]​

On February 8, 2018, Payton was traded to the Phoenix Suns in exchange for a 2018 second-round pick.[27] He made his debut for the Suns two days later, recording 19 points, nine assists and six rebounds in 35 minutes in a 123–113 loss to the Denver Nuggets.[28] In his second game for the Suns on February 12, Payton scored a game-high 29 points in a 129–83 loss to the Golden State Warriors.[29] Two days later, he had a triple-double with 13 points, 11 rebounds and 12 assists in a 107–97 loss to the Utah Jazz.[30] On March 4, 2018, he had 11 points, 10 rebounds and a season-high 14 assists in a 113–112 loss to the Atlanta Hawks.[31] It was his second triple-double in nine games with the Suns—his nine games needed with the team to record two triple-doubles are the fewest ever by a Suns player.[32]

 

[Hoop Head]

He sat out the last couple weeks but I don't think it had anything to do with tanking. He posted a jaw dropping +,- stat during his 19 games here. He was -254 in a mere 540 minutes played, no one else on the team was even close on a per minute basis. Per 100 possessions we go outscored 99-120 with him out there. That -21 ratio put him in his own stratosphere, with Tony Daniels having the next worst ratio at -12.

Didn't we also have Warren and Booker sitting out as well? I remember tanking that season and Payton was basically the last NBA level player still seeing the floor for a couple of games. It was a lot of scrubs seeing the majority of the time.

Can you tell what the Suns +/- was during that time, not just Payton, because I remember being really bad, beyond what one player should be blamed for. I'm not sure where you're pulling stats either but can you can compare his to the other players during the time he was here, removing the games before he was a Sun. So for March and April, I believe.

 

[Mainstreet]

What concerns me a bit, although there are pros and cons, the Suns appear content starting the season with a fourteen man roster. Of course, everything is subject to change but it looks that way at the moment.

Saric missed a lot of games last season and was erratic at times but I liked having him on the roster as a rotation player and he helped the Suns win some games.

The pro for not using the MLE now is they can probably get a better player later in the season via trade or buyout. The negative is opponents may use their overall size advantage against the Suns. It's easy to see opponents being more healthy this season. Although the Suns have more depth at center I don't want Cam Johnson getting too beat up in the first part of the season backing up Jae Crowder.

I'm hoping the Suns add a fifteenth player sooner rather than later.

I'm guessing the Suns will use the remaining MLE and leave the BAE go unused.

 

[Hoop Head]

What concerns me a bit, although there are pros and cons, the Suns appear content starting the season with a fourteen man roster. Of course, everything is subject to change but it looks that way at the moment.

Saric missed a lot of games last season and was erratic at times but I liked having him on the roster as a rotation player and he helped the Suns win some games.

The pro for not using the MLE now is they can probably get a better player later in the season via trade or buyout. The negative is opponents may use their overall size advantage against the Suns. It's easy to see opponents being more healthy this season. Although the Suns have more depth at center I don't want Cam Johnson getting too beat up in the first part of the season backing up Jae Crowder.

I'm hoping the Suns add a fifteenth player sooner rather than later.

I'm guessing the Suns will use the remaining MLE and leave the BAE go unused.

Nothing will happen until SL is over, at the earliest. We're in a better position than last year because McGee is worlds better than Damien Jones and Frank is already here. If you recall we didn't have Frank to start last season and didn't have Dario for the first month or so either. I believe Saric had a broken ankle and then he caught Covid right after.

Believe it or not, we're actually deeper than last year.

Hopefully having McGee will get Ayton playing a little more physically because he has a competent backup as well, which will help a lot against bigger teams as well as smaller.

 

[Mainstreet]

Nothing will happen until SL is over, at the earliest. We're in a better position than last year because McGee is worlds better than Damien Jones and Frank is already here. If you recall we didn't have Frank to start last season and didn't have Dario for the first month or so either. I believe Saric had a broken ankle and then he caught Covid right after.

Believe it or not, we're actually deeper than last year.

Hopefully having McGee will get Ayton playing a little more physically because he has a competent backup as well, which will help a lot against bigger teams as well as smaller.

Almost all the teams seem to have improved at least on paper although I remember thinking before the start of last season that the Lakers were almost a sure thing to win it all.

I'm simply wanting the Suns to get off to a good start. I'd like to get a power forward that can deal with players like Bobby Portis. Center depth is different than power forward depth.

 

[Hoop Head]

Almost all the teams seem to have improved at least on paper although I remember thinking before the start of last season that the Lakers were almost a sure thing to win it all.

I'm simply wanting the Suns to get off to a good start. I'd like to get a power forward that can deal with players like Bobby Portis. Center depth is different than power forward depth.

I know Center depth is different than PF depth, we won't need Frank to play as the primary backup C like last year so using him as a PF in certain match ups will work.

It won't be like last year with everyone growing accustomed to each other either. We'll have continuity while other teams are working out their growing pains. It also won't be like the playoffs where teams really game plan and scheme to make certain players ineffective.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Didn't we shut it down and go into tank mode shortly after he'd has some good games? And to be clear, that's a question not a statement. I remember something happening that timed with his decline in play although I'm not sure I recall it correctly.

I have a similar recollection.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Excited about the roster and the team. Another year with several players who made big jumps. I think we continue to improve in many areas for players 1-9 and we will be seasoned to handle the tougher western conference just fine.

Haven’t seen you around much. Nice to have you post!

 

[Cheesebeef]

Oh dear lord... can we please not get in a time machine to bring us back to the darkest of dark days where the most polarizing/exciting thing to talk about was some mediocre (at best) dude’s hairdo?!

 

[Mainstreet]

I know Center depth is different than PF depth, we won't need Frank to play as the primary backup C like last year so using him as a PF in certain match ups will work.

It won't be like last year with everyone growing accustomed to each other either. We'll have continuity while other teams are working out their growing pains. It also won't be like the playoffs where teams really game plan and scheme to make certain players ineffective.

A lot of good teams have kept their core players and will return injured players. Continuity is good for some wins but the Suns can't expect to win unless they are improved. Let's hope a lot of improvement comes within.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Oh dear lord... can we please not get in a time machine to bring us back to the darkest of dark days where the most polarizing/exciting thing to talk about was some mediocre (at best) dude’s hairdo?!

Al Gore invented the internets and the offseason for just such conversations.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Al Gore invented the internets and the offseason for just such conversations.

kill me.

 

[Hoop Head]

A lot of good teams have kept their core players and will return injured players. Continuity is good for some wins but the Suns can't expect to win unless they are improved. Let's hope a lot of improvement comes within.

I'm not worried. We had the second best record in the league last year and that was after a rocky 6-6 start. It'll be a longer season but I see us as a top 4 seed with 50+ wins pretty easily. If we can somehow pull off a move for Nance or Young then I'd think 60 wins could be realistic, health permitting, and that is based on swapping 3 rotation players. Even without one of them, we're better than last year.

Our starting 5 and top 2 bench contributors are all returning and I expect improvement from all but Paul. I think Crowder will be more consistent than early last year, which will lead to a better start, and Booker, Ayton, Bridges, and both Cam's should be improved and more comfortable in their roles as well.

Maybe the turnaround was too quick so I've taken it for granted. I'm still elated over the finals run but I'm incredibly comfortable with this team going forward. I think we can recreate the success during the regular season pretty easily just based in individual and team development. It's not like last year hinged on an MVP like performance from 1 player, it was a collection and collaboration of players that are all returning in similar condition, only more comfortable with each other than experienced.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'm not worried. We had the second best record in the league last year and that was after a rocky 6-6 start. It'll be a longer season but I see us as a top 4 seed with 50+ wins pretty easily. If we can somehow pull off a move for Nance or Young then I'd think 60 wins could be realistic, health permitting, and that is based on swapping 3 rotation players. Even without one of them, we're better than last year.

Our starting 5 and top 2 bench contributors are all returning and I expect improvement from all but Paul. I think Crowder will be more consistent than early last year, which will lead to a better start, and Booker, Ayton, Bridges, and both Cam's should be improved and more comfortable in their roles as well.

Maybe the turnaround was too quick so I've taken it for granted. I'm still elated over the finals run but I'm incredibly comfortable with this team going forward. I think we can recreate the success during the regular season pretty easily just based in individual and team development. It's not like last year hinged on an MVP like performance from 1 player, it was a collection and collaboration of players that are all returning in similar condition, only more comfortable with each other than experienced.

Monty thought the Suns were a top four team in the West going into last season. I see no reason they shouldn't be this coming season as well. Still I like a margin for error. If the Suns can obtain a solid power forward that can play, I will feel a lot more comfortable.

 

[Phrazbit]

Didn't we also have Warren and Booker sitting out as well? I remember tanking that season and Payton was basically the last NBA level player still seeing the floor for a couple of games. It was a lot of scrubs seeing the majority of the time.

Can you tell what the Suns +/- was during that time, not just Payton, because I remember being really bad, beyond what one player should be blamed for. I'm not sure where you're pulling stats either but can you can compare his to the other players during the time he was here, removing the games before he was a Sun. So for March and April, I believe.

Yeah, I've got a couple sites I use for those stats, one is NBA.com, I won't bother to post the link because when you're digging that deep into stats the URL is massive, but their stat tool is easy to use.

The other is 82games.com. Very detailed, very heavy on rotation based stats, also, it is unfortunately not updated very often during the season, like probably 3 or 4 updates all year.

Phoenix Suns NBA stats and data from 82games.com

Phoenix Suns, NBA player and team stats including plus/minus data and best five man units

www.82games.com

There is the Suns on court/off court and rotation data for the season Payton was here. If you click through the rotation players you'll find that while Payton doesn't have the lowest overall +,- stat, his numbers per minute/possession blow anyone else out of the water.

But yes, we certainly tanked, I don't believe Payton getting shut down the last couple weeks had anything to do with us not wanting to win, but was more about giving other guys a look... because Payton was clearly hot garbage, as the stats back up.

I was debating the claim that last year was Payton's worst season, I said it was bad, but he run here was much worse and, statistically, it is hard to challenge that. This year his win shares per 48 stat was a putrid .032 (league average is .100), his rate in his 19 games here was a "is my grandma playing?" level of bad at .009.

I really want to say that I am only continuing this conversation about how terrible Payton is because I keep getting directly challenged, I don't want to beat a dead horse. I think we would all agree that if our season at any point hinges on the skills of Elfrid Payton then something has already gone horrendously wrong.

 

[boisesuns]

Haven’t seen you around much. Nice to have you post!

Thanks! Been mostly a lurker for a while. Working in the music industry certainly has had its challenges for the last few years.

I guess you could say the Suns actually being good dragged me back in.

 

[Hoop Head]

Yeah, I've got a couple sites I use for those stats, one is NBA.com, I won't bother to post the link because when you're digging that deep into stats the URL is massive, but their stat tool is easy to use.

The other is 82games.com. Very detailed, very heavy on rotation based stats, also, it is unfortunately not updated very often during the season, like probably 3 or 4 updates all year.

Phoenix Suns NBA stats and data from 82games.com

Phoenix Suns, NBA player and team stats including plus/minus data and best five man units

www.82games.com

There is the Suns on court/off court and rotation data for the season Payton was here. If you click through the rotation players you'll find that while Payton doesn't have the lowest overall +,- stat, his numbers per minute/possession blow anyone else out of the water.

But yes, we certainly tanked, I don't believe Payton getting shut down the last couple weeks had anything to do with us not wanting to win, but was more about giving other guys a look... because Payton was clearly hot garbage, as the stats back up.

I was debating the claim that last year was Payton's worst season, I said it was bad, but he run here was much worse and, statistically, it is hard to challenge that. This year his win shares per 48 stat was a putrid .032 (league average is .100), his rate in his 19 games here was a "is my grandma playing?" level of bad at .009.

I really want to say that I am only continuing this conversation about how terrible Payton is because I keep getting directly challenged, I don't want to beat a dead horse. I think we would all agree that if our season at any point hinges on the skills of Elfrid Payton then something has already gone horrendously wrong.

I appreciate the info. I was just curious how he compared and also to see what sites you were pulling stats from so I could check things out also.

I agree that if Payton is counted on for anymore than 10-15 minutes a night then something has gone wrong. I like his as a true PG behind 2 good PG's as well as 2 good ball handlers in Booker and Shamet. It keeps either of those 2 from having to play as the primary facilitator, which I believe is for the best.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I appreciate the info. I was just curious how he compared and also to see what sites you were pulling stats from so I could check things out also.

I agree that if Payton is counted on for anymore than 10-15 minutes a night then something has gone wrong. I like his as a true PG behind 2 good PG's as well as 2 good ball handlers in Booker and Shamet. It keeps either of those 2 from having to play as the primary facilitator, which I believe is for the best.

Honestly I think he doesn’t see the court much unless there’s an injury or foul issues with Paul and/or cam.

 

[Yuma]

I feel like it takes two seasons for a major trade to take hold. I think we got way more than expected with the Paul trade and Crowder signing than we thought. NBA Finals? No one though that. Now we are under dogs again. Let's see how this goes!

 

[Cheesebeef]

I feel like it takes two seasons for a major trade to take hold. I think we got way more than expected with the Paul trade and Crowder signing than we thought. NBA Finals? No one though that. Now we are under dogs again. Let's see how this goes!

really? I don’t think it takes that long for a major trade to take hold.

I mean, just with the Suns we’ve twice seen how trading for one player immediately took us to the Finals with Barkley and CP3.


CP3 also got taded to the Rockets. They go from 52 win team to 65 win that team that likely wins the Finals if CP3 doesn’t get hurt up 3-2 over the Warriors in the WCF.

then, just off the top of my head you had Sheed get traded to the Pistons, they win the title.

KG and Ray Allen get traded to the Celtics, they win the title.

Anthony Davis gets traded to the Lakers. They win the title.

Durant goes to the Warriors, then win the title.

Drexler goes to the Rockets, they win the title.

Those are just five major changes that immediately paid off with titles off the top of my head. Usually if a big trade is going to work, it’s going to take hold on the first year. Might not mean it wins the title, but only one team does that a year.

 

[Mainstreet]

I feel like it takes two seasons for a major trade to take hold. I think we got way more than expected with the Paul trade and Crowder signing than we thought. NBA Finals? No one though that. Now we are under dogs again. Let's see how this goes!

No one expected the Suns to be a Finals team but once they acquired Chris Paul that window opened. Jae Crowder helped provide veteran leadership as well.

Monty thought they were a top four team in the West. To be a top four team in the West makes a team a contender in my book.

I wish the Suns front office had pulled out all the stops to acquire one more big man that could contribute. They were so close.

 

[Carolinacacti]

I think everyone wants to know what Ayton we get next year. Playoff Ayton or season Ayton. Maybe something better who the hell knows.

 

[Mainstreet]

I was looking at a photo in the Arizona Republic which showed the Suns second unit meeting together on the court during a break in play.

It featured starters Chris Paul and Mikal Bridges plus reserves Cam Johnson, Torrey Craig and Dario Saric. Nothing like a photo to slap one in the face with a dose of reality even though we know the Suns are missing two key rotation players from last season.

The Suns have added McGee upfront but one could argue that Craig has not been replaced. Suddenly the importance of filling that 15th roster slot with a power forward that can play becomes even more apparent.

The Suns appear improved at the 1-2 position with the addition of Landry Shamet and Elfrid Payton.

 

[Hoop Head]

I was looking at a photo in the Arizona Republic which showed the Suns second unit meeting together on the court during a break in play.

It featured starters Chris Paul and Mikal Bridges plus reserves Cam Johnson, Torrey Craig and Dario Saric. Nothing like a photo to slap one in the face with a dose of reality even though we know the Suns are missing two key rotation players from last season.

The Suns have added McGee upfront but one could argue that Craig has not been replaced. Suddenly the importance of filling that 15th roster slot with a power forward that can play becomes even more apparent.

The Suns appear improved at the 1-2 position with the addition of Landry Shamet and Elfrid Payton.

I don't see the issue you do. Saric was replaced with McGee, which is an improvement. Sure, Saric could play next to Ayton but he rarely did. He was almost exclusively his backup. Frank saw more time with Ayton than Dario. So again, we've replaced Dario.

We didn't have Craig for a good portion of the season, about 2/3's and while it would have been nice to keep him, it's also time to see what Stix brings to the table and for Cam Johnson to take the next step. Cam Johnson should see more minutes this year and taking the minutes Craig received makes sense. The Suns can play Shamet as a SF also as a shooter, like Cam J was used at times.

I understand wanting to fill the roster spot but its not as dire as you make it out to be. It's almost like you don't believe any of our young guys will step up. Even if they don't at first, we didn't add Torrey until late in the season last year so replacing right away ignores that we were a top 2 team in the West when we added him. He helped but by increasing our margin of error, kind of, but we were as good before him as we were after him.

I'd rather keep the spot open to find the right piece that is a good fit rather than rushing to fill it now with someone who may not be the best fit or fill a big need for us. Like last year if we rushed to sign a Center after releasing Damien Jones then we wouldn't have been able to get Torrey Craig, who fit better and helped us more than any 3rd string Center available that could have replaced Jones.

 

[Mainstreet]

I don't see the issue you do. Saric was replaced with McGee, which is an improvement. Sure, Saric could play next to Ayton but he rarely did. He was almost exclusively his backup. Frank saw more time with Ayton than Dario. So again, we've replaced Dario.

We didn't have Craig for a good portion of the season, about 2/3's and while it would have been nice to keep him, it's also time to see what Stix brings to the table and for Cam Johnson to take the next step. Cam Johnson should see more minutes this year and taking the minutes Craig received makes sense. The Suns can play Shamet as a SF also as a shooter, like Cam J was used at times.

I understand wanting to fill the roster spot but its not as dire as you make it out to be. It's almost like you don't believe any of our young guys will step up. Even if they don't at first, we didn't add Torrey until late in the season last year so replacing right away ignores that we were a top 2 team in the West when we added him. He helped but by increasing our margin of error, kind of, but we were as good before him as we were after him.

I'd rather keep the spot open to find the right piece that is a good fit rather than rushing to fill it now with someone who may not be the best fit or fill a big need for us. Like last year if we rushed to sign a Center after releasing Damien Jones then we wouldn't have been able to get Torrey Craig, who fit better and helped us more than any 3rd string Center available that could have replaced Jones.

I didn't say the situation was "dire" but it is important how the Suns fill that 15th slot.

Saric and Craig were small ball 4s and 5s that could spread the court. Kaminsky was on the roster last season but never seemed to earn Monty's full trust as a rotation player. McGee is a rim protector and rebounder who plays inside. They are different type players.

The Suns need more depth upfront as they did all last season. McGee only replaced one position, not two. Suns need someone who can minimally replace Craig. Nothing like a photo to drive the point home. If you are asking Cam Johnson to play power forward full time I think that is asking too much.

Yes, we are waiting for the right player but I don't think for a moment the problem is fixed unless you are counting on Stix to be a rotation player. In my eyes, he yet to prove he is an NBA player worthy of minutes until he earns it.