2023 Phoenix Suns Offseason

[Cheesebeef]

I might have agreed prior to getting Eric Gordon. Payne just didn't show up so often that you couldn't rely on him to provide that depth. He wasn't going to get much playing time with all the ball handlers we have anyway IMO which made him expendable. Add on the salary save and it was a no brainer IMO.

We really only have 4 ball handlers. That’s more than previous years, but you can never have enough of them. It just adds that much more of an element defenses have to worry about.

And I don’t care about the savings. Dude’s a kajillionaire. If you’re really in it to win it, you spend to the hills, AFASIC.

 

[Phrazbit]

Actually, there are/were rumors the Suns may want TJ McConnell. So the Suns still might be interested in another point guard.

Wainright's salary is not guaranteed, so the Suns didn't have to only choose between Payne and Bol Bol.

I understand dumping salary but I hope the move was made for different reasons like possibly acquiring another player with the trade exception later on.

I think they, specifically, wanted McConnell but we couldn't put together a trade to make the Pacers bite.

Once that idea was out the window, they dumped Payne and, without Payne's salary, there is no path to getting McConnell.

I think the roster is pretty much set, for sure until at least mid December, when off season signings become moveable.

Outside of Booker, Durant and Ayton, we don't even have the ability to move anyone, because they are acquired too recently.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think they, specifically, wanted McConnell but we couldn't put together a trade to make the Pacers bite.

Once that idea was out the window, they dumped Payne and, without Payne's salary, there is no path to getting McConnell.

I think the roster is pretty much set, for sure until at least mid December, when off season signings become moveable.

Outside of Booker, Durant and Ayton, we don't even have the ability to move anyone, because they are acquired too recently.

I agree. I think the Suns wanted T. J. McConnell. It wasn't because the Suns couldn't use another ball handler and shooter.

IMO, the Suns were a better team with Payne or McConnell on the roster.

 

[Covert Rain]

We really only have 4 ball handlers. That’s more than previous years, but you can never have enough of them. It just adds that much more of an element defenses have to worry about.

And I don’t care about the savings. Dude’s a kajillionaire. If you’re really in it to win it, you spend to the hills, AFASIC.

The savings is important now starting at the end of the season and the new 2nd apron. I wasn't thinking about if from Ishbia's point of view as much as it will hinder the teams ability to make moves.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The savings is important now starting at the end of the season and the new 2nd apron. I wasn't thinking about if from Ishbia's point of view as much as it will hinder the teams ability to make moves.

Oh that could be. Didn’t think about that.

 

[Hoop Head]

The savings is important now starting at the end of the season and the new 2nd apron. I wasn't thinking about if from Ishbia's point of view as much as it will hinder the teams ability to make moves.

Payne's deal was expiring so it wouldn't effect anything at the end of the season and the apron beyond this season.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Payne's deal was expiring so it wouldn't effect anything at the end of the season and the apron beyond this season.

Well, that blows that excuse out of the water.

 

[Yuma]

Not sure on the Payne's deal not affecting anything since it was widely reported it saved nearly $30 million in every sports article on the trade.

 

[Yuma]

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[Mainstreet]

Not sure on the Payne's deal not affecting anything since it was widely reported it saved nearly $30 million in every sports article on the trade.

The Suns owner saved lots and lots of money $26.4 million by trading Cam Payne. I won't deny him this because he has spent lots and lots of money on the team.

Since the Suns are over the tax apron, however, trading Cam Payne will likely not help improve the team. He was one of the fifteen best players on the roster so I don't see any way around that.

Also, Cam Payne wanted to be here. If you want to talk injuries, there are other players to talk about as well.

The Suns lost all their exceptions except perhaps the trade exception. I think they still have those for Saric and Payne.

Perhaps the Suns have a plan on how to use one. We will have to wait and see, but I'm looking at the team now.

 

[Yuma]

Yeah, we have Saric and Payne and some second rounders to use if we use those trade exceptions.

 

[nashman]

They saved money and I for one am glad the Payne experiment is over! Honestly would rather see Goodwin or anyone else get the back up minutes. Those hoping for Payne to even be a little of the finals guy that had his best career spurt, we’re frankly hoping for a miracle, he is what he is and we don’t need him imo!

 

[Phrazbit]

I think the Payne trade is totally justified.

If you're planning on Payne being your 3rd string PG then there is no way paying 20+ million (with the luxury tax) to keep him makes sense.

Also, I don't know that Cam would be happy being buried on the bench.

However, I think Cam is criminally underrated around here. He was a really really good backup PG. His shot was inconsistent but he did everything else well and, most importantly, when pressed into a starting role he played his best.

I think the team chose Goodwin over him because of defense and price. But if the injury bug hits and Goodwin is pressed into a starting role, a lot of Cam Payne's detractors will find themselves lamenting that we don't have a legit play making guard in reserve, especially one who could push the tempo like Cam.

Cam Payne was the best backup PG the Suns have had since Barbosa.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think the team chose Goodwin over him because of defense and price. But if the injury bug hits and Goodwin is pressed into a starting role, a lot of Cam Payne's detractors will find themselves lamenting that we don't have a legit play making guard in reserve, especially one who could push the tempo like Cam.

Cam Payne was the best backup PG the Suns have had since Barbosa.

Some of Cam Payne's supporters have done just this the past two years. Between injuries and his long recoveries he's been either unavailable or ineffective far too often to consider him reliable.

I love his attitude and the fact he can be a huge threat when all is right with him but that just doesn't happen enough to pencil him in as our backup or even the backup to our backup. It would have been a wonderful luxury to keep him as an emergency player and with the health risks of our key players we're all likely to miss him at times this season. But don't lose sight of the fact that we already missed the heck out of him many times since he won us over in the bubble.

 

[Covert Rain]

Well, that blows that excuse out of the water.

Except, what I am saying is above the Suns have to start jettisoning low value contracts because of the new tax rules. Every dollar they save makes it easier to revamp things down the road. Not to mention the trade exception it generated.

“Because of the extremes in the luxury tax, getting rid of Payne’s $6.5 million salary in exchange for Bol on the minimum saves Phoenix $26.4 million on the tax ball, per Marks.”

“The Payne deal also generated a $6.5 million trade exception (TPE),”

 

[Yuma]

Just a philosophical change of direction. If a team is over the Aprons, and rules get stricter each season, we have all read how difficult that makes it for teams. Throw into the mix that trades have to be within certain values for both parties. So my question, is once you are super high Team salaried, how do you move back down into the normal team salary range? I mean the rules are set up to make teams supposedly stay in the normal range, but not one NBA salary guru has written an article I can find, on how that is done?

 

[Yuma]

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[Hoop Head]

Except, what I am saying is above the Suns have to start jettisoning low value contracts because of the new tax rules. Every dollar they save makes it easier to revamp things down the road. Not to mention the trade exception it generated.

“Because of the extremes in the luxury tax, getting rid of Payne’s $6.5 million salary in exchange for Bol on the minimum saves Phoenix $26.4 million on the tax ball, per Marks.”

“The Payne deal also generated a $6.5 million trade exception (TPE),”

We had a trade exception from Saric already and keeping Payne or trading him only lightens Ishbia's payroll this year. It was cutting corners, it didn't effect the 2nd apron as Payne being on the Suns or off wasn't enough to make a difference. You can fabricate a narrative to justify it all you want but ultimately it makes no sense regarding the apron this season. Next season is moot since his contract ended at the end of the year.

 

[Covert Rain]

We had a trade exception from Saric already and keeping Payne or trading him only lightens Ishbia's payroll this year. It was cutting corners, it didn't effect the 2nd apron as Payne being on the Suns or off wasn't enough to make a difference. You can fabricate a narrative to justify it all you want but ultimately it makes no sense regarding the apron this season. Next season is moot since his contract ended at the end of the year.

Huh? So what if we had a trade exception for Dario? So getting an additional TPE for Payne at $6.5 million on top of the 5 million for Dario isn’t more flexibility?!? Explain please.

Also, sorry if it wasn’t clear, the above was a continuation of my original post. I am referencing the entire transaction. Not just the tax savings. I never said it brought us under the 2nd apron and brought it up referencing all the new tax rules like the Repeater tax etc.

Keeping Payne, paying the penalty taxes, getting nothing in return seems stupid verses avoiding those taxes and getting a TPE in return. Again, if you can explain why the opposite is true I would love to hear your ”narrative”.

 

[Hoop Head]

Huh? So what if we had a trade exception for Dario? So getting a TPE for Payne at $6.5 million vs the 5 million for Dario isn’t more flexibility?!? Explain please.

Also, sorry if it wasn’t clear, the above was a continuation of my original post. I am referencing the entire transaction. Not just the tax savings. I never said it brought us under the 2nd apron and brought it up referencing all the new tax rules like the Repeater tax etc.

Keeping Payne, paying the penalty taxes, getting nothing in return seems stupid verse avoiding those taxes and getting an TPE in return. Again, if you can explain why the opposite is true I would love to hear your ”narrative”.

It's cutting corners at the end of the bench to save a few bucks. I've made my point clear, we didn't need yet another TPE since we have one. We could have always offloaded Payne as an expiring deal later if we so desired. That's more valuable than what's likely to be another unused TPE. You talk about that as if it's valuable and it's not. Most TPE expire without every being used. If we do use that to acquire someone then there goes your whole idea of saving tax money also.

When you go all in for a championship run you don't try and skimp a few bucks on the end of the bench by jettisoning the only NBA PG we had on the roster. You go all in or why bother? All I've heard is "Ishbia will spend!" and this move proves he has a line and that's fine but admit it rather than dancing around it. If Sarver made the same move he'd be crucified for it while Ishbia is getting a pass. We're a better team with Payne on the roster than not. There's no way anyone could possibly spin that we're now better without him and no one to replace him either. What aren't you getting about that? You get a quality NBA PG, how is that hard to understand?

 

[Covert Rain]

It's cutting corners at the end of the bench to save a few bucks. I've made my point clear, we didn't need yet another TPE since we have one. We could have always offloaded Payne as an expiring deal later if we so desired. That's more valuable than what's likely to be another unused TPE. You talk about that as if it's valuable and it's not. Most TPE expire without every being used. If we do use that to acquire someone then there goes your whole idea of saving tax money also.

When you go all in for a championship run you don't try and skimp a few bucks on the end of the bench by jettisoning the only NBA PG we had on the roster. You go all in or why bother? All I've heard is "Ishbia will spend!" and this move proves he has a line and that's fine but admit it rather than dancing around it. If Sarver made the same move he'd be crucified for it while Ishbia is getting a pass. We're a better team with Payne on the roster than not. There's no way anyone could possibly spin that we're now better without him and no one to replace him either. What aren't you getting about that? You get a quality NBA PG, how is that hard to understand?

Your point is only clear if you are assuming everybody agrees with your take on Payne. Having an exception doesn’t mean we couldn’t use another. Again, unless you are assuming keeping Payne is more valuable and everybody agrees with that.

 

[Mainstreet]

No your point isn’t clear. How is having an exception valued at 5.0 million and adding another at 6.5 million mean we don’t need another one unless you are assuming keeping Payne is more valuable? If you don’t?

Do you really think the Suns are going to get another point guard as good as Cam Payne with one of the trade exceptions?

And if they do use one of the trade exceptions, the Suns are right back where they started, paying the extra luxury tax.

 

[Covert Rain]

Do you really think the Suns are going to get another point guard as good as Cam Payne with one of the trade exceptions?

And if they do use one of the trade exceptions, the Suns are right back where they started, paying the extra luxury tax.

I don’t think Cam Payne was a good backup PG. That seems to be where the difference of opinion is. I don’t think he was reliable and I don’t think the Suns need him. Maybe they don’t use the TPE’s. That‘s possible but I like having the option and I doubt Payne was going to see much playing time this season with all the ball handlers. I could be wrong. However, paying the luxury tax and having one less TPE for a guy we can’t depend on seems worth it to me. If Payne was the Payne from the bubble? That would be different.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don’t think Cam Payne was a good backup PG. That seems to be where the difference of opinion is. I don’t think he was reliable and I don’t think the Suns need him. Maybe they don’t use the TPE’s. That‘s possible but I like having the option and I doubt Payne was going to see much playing time this season with all the ball handlers. I could be wrong.

I think the Suns could very well need him but we've needed him for 2 years yet we rarely got the player we needed. I wish we could have traded him for bubble Payne but since that wasn't an option, I'm fine with moving on from him. I wish him well, elsewhere.

 

[Covert Rain]

M

I think the Suns could very well need him but we've needed him for 2 years yet we rarely got the player we needed. I wish we could have traded him for bubble Payne but since that wasn't an option, I'm fine with moving on from him. I wish him well, elsewhere.

Totally agree. If we were talking bubble Payne I would feel differently in terms of his worth.