2023 Phoenix Suns Offseason

[Mainstreet]

I don’t think Cam Payne was a good backup PG. That seems to be where the difference of opinion is. I don’t think he was reliable and I don’t think the Suns need him. Maybe they don’t use the TPE’s. That‘s possible but I like having the option and I doubt Payne was going to see much playing time this season with all the ball handlers. I could be wrong.

As pointed out earlier, Cam Payne is underrated. He averaged 10.8 points and 4.9 assists in the 2021-22 season and 10.3 points and 4.5 assists in the 2022-23 season. He is probably the only true point guard on the roster. He scored 31 points in game 6 of the playoffs against the Nuggets.

Now, if your argument is about saving money, I don't think anyone would question the reality of the situation, but a championship should be the goal.

 

[Covert Rain]

As pointed out earlier, Cam Payne is underrated. He averaged 10.8 points and 4.9 assists in the 2021-22 season and 10.3 points and 4.5 assists in the 2022-23 season. He is probably the only true point guard on the roster. He scored 31 points in game 6 of the playoffs against the Nuggets.

Now, if your argument is about saving money, I don't think anyone would question the reality of the situation, but a championship should be the goal.

Looking at stats alone doesn’t tell the entire story. We have all seen examples of that over and over again. It’s cool if you don’t agree but we couldn’t rely on him and being a ”true” PG didn’t seem to change that. I think others agree he was unreliable. So, I can understand how there would be a difference of opinion on that transaction depending on what you think his worth is.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think the Suns could very well need him but we've needed him for 2 years yet we rarely got the player we needed. I wish we could have traded him for bubble Payne but since that wasn't an option, I'm fine with moving on from him. I wish him well, elsewhere.

I guess I think more highly of Payne as a backup point guard that you do. He has had some injury problems, but so has some other players not named Mikal Bridges.

I value point guard depth and it's turned into a legitimate concern almost every season since he arrived.

 

[Covert Rain]

I guess I think more highly of Payne as a backup point guard that you do. He has had some injury problems, but so has some other players not named Mikal Bridges.

I value point guard depth and it's turned into a legitimate concern almost every season since he arrived.

If you can’t rely on him when healthy or staying healthy how much depth does he really add? Trust me, I would love to have more legit PG depth. You and I have been on that bandwagon I think for the past 3 seasons. We just disagree on Payne moving that needle much.

 

[Mainstreet]

Looking at stats alone doesn’t tell the entire story. We have all seen examples of that over and over again. It’s cool if you don’t agree but we couldn’t rely on him and being a ”true” PG didn’t seem to change that. I think others agree he was unreliable. So, I can

If you can’t rely on him when healthy or staying healthy how much depth does he really add? Trust me, I would love to have more legit PG depth. You and I have been on that bandwagon I think for the past 3 seasons. We just disagree on Payne moving that needle much.

The "unreliable" label could be hung on some other players as well. That's why a team needs depth at key positions.

 

[Covert Rain]

The "unreliable" label could be hung on some other players as well. That's why a team needs depth at key positions.

No doubt but we are talking about Payne and the backup PG spot.

 

[Mainstreet]

No doubt but we are talking about Payne and the backup PG spot.

Payne played the last four playoff games against Denver when Chris Paul went out.

 

[Covert Rain]

Payne played the last four playoff games against Denver when Chris Paul went out.

How did that turn out? Let’s talk about some of his other streaks last season. Like at one point he had more turnovers than assists and baskets.

 

[Mainstreet]

How did that turn out? Let’s talk about some of his other streaks last season. Like at one point he had more turnovers than assists and baskets.

Actually, in the last 4 playoff games Cam Payne played resulted in 2 wins and 2 losses against Denver.

 

[Covert Rain]

Actually, the last 4 playoff games Cam Payne played resulted in 2 wins and 2 losses against Denver.

He shot less than 25% in the first 3 games from two, 28% from 3 and had a net negative plus/minus while on the floor. The two games after that he averaged better shooting percentages but both were losses, doubled his turnovers and had a worse plus/minus then the previous two games while on the floor.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I guess I think more highly of Payne as a backup point guard that you do. He has had some injury problems, but so has some other players not named Mikal Bridges.

I value point guard depth and it's turned into a legitimate concern almost every season since he arrived.

One of the main reasons that our point guard depth was such a legitimate concern was Payne's injuries and how long it took him to return to form once he was able to play. Each time when he returned from an injury, even a minor injury, it seemed like he played too fast and made horrible decisions for several games.

When Payne did finally get all the way back he was a very good backup point guard. But you can't rely on a player that misses 30% of the games then plays horribly 40% of the games as he gets back into form even if he shines the rest of the time.

I guess you put up with those kind of problems with a superstar but for a key role player, it's a real problem. And it leads to a lot of complaining that the front office didn't do their job with the PG situation when in fact they tried to do their job, they just made the mistake of depending on a highly unreliable player. So maybe we downgraded the position a little bit when you compare Goodwin to Payne on his good nights but it wouldn't take much for Goodwin to be a nice upgrade all those other nights.

 

[Mainstreet]

He shot less than 25% in the first 3 games from two, 28% from 3 and had a net negative plus/minus while on the floor. The two games after that he averaged better shooting percentages but both were losses, doubled his turnovers and had a worse plus/minus then the previous two games while on the floor.

One of the main reasons that our point guard depth was such a legitimate concern was Payne's injuries and how long it took him to return to form once he was able to play. Each time when he returned from an injury, even a minor injury, it seemed like he played too fast and made horrible decisions for several games.

When Payne did finally get all the way back he was a very good backup point guard. But you can't rely on a player that misses 30% of the games then plays horribly 40% of the games as he gets back into form even if he shines the rest of the time.

I guess you put up with those kind of problems with a superstar but for a key role player, it's a real problem. And it leads to a lot of complaining that the front office didn't do their job with the PG situation when in fact they tried to do their job, they just made the mistake of depending on a highly unreliable player. So maybe we downgraded the position a little bit when you compare Goodwin to Payne on his good nights but it wouldn't take much for Goodwin to be a nice upgrade all those other nights.

Covert, you forgot to mention Cam Payne scored 31 points in game 6 against Denver in the playoffs, shot .750 from the field and .778 from 3-point range all while Chris Paul and Deandre Ayton didn't even play.

I'm not here to engage in stat wars, but Cam Payne was well worth his 3 year, $19 million contract. On any given night, Payne had the ability to light up the scoreboard and run the team. The Suns could have used a third point guard when he was off, but I couldn't control that.

I don't understand why people want to run him over now, other than to justify the Suns dumping his salary to save some money.

Btw, saving $25+ million dollars is a legitimate reason to trade a player, but let's not kick Payne on the way out the door. This is what troubles me the most. He was a backup point guard getting paid only $6 million a season. He was not the reason the Suns didn't win a championship.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

The Cam Payne hagiography is crazy around here. He's a little guy that tries hard, but was becoming unreliable two years ago, and then between injuries/ineffectiveness, he was completely useless last year.

The league figured him out - Cam is just another mercurial undersized guard who can get hot in a minute but also can shoot/turnover you out of a game quickly.

 

[Superbone]

The bottom line is that keeping Payne around wasn't worth 26 million dollars for this upcoming season. I don't blame Ishbia one bit if it was only for the cost savings. He's spent lavishly elsewhere. I have no complaints.

 

[Covert Rain]

Covert, you forgot to mention Cam Payne scored 31 points in game 6 against Denver in the playoffs, shot .750 from the field and .778 from 3-point range all while Chris Paul and Deandre Ayton didn't even play.

I'm not here to engage in stat wars, but Cam Payne was well worth his 3 year, $19 million contract. On any given night, Payne had the ability to light up the scoreboard and run the team. The Suns could have used a third point guard when he was off, but I couldn't control that.

I don't understand why people want to run him over now, other than to justify the Suns dumping his salary to save some money.

Btw, saving $25+ million dollars is a legitimate reason to trade a player, but let's not kick Payne on the way out the door. This is what troubles me the most. He was a backup point guard getting paid only $6 million a season. He was not the reason the Suns didn't win a championship.

I didn't forget anymore than you "forgot" to mention how he played for much of the series which was my point. Pointing out how unreliable he has been and you think that is running over him but then going out of your way to point out a 31 point effort in a loss while leaving the rest of the series out is ironic. I seem to remember you saying earlier in the season as well we needed an upgrade at backup PG. So, getting bent about a 6 million dollar a year player seems ironic as well.

He played well in the bubble. He played well the following season until the end of the season. Since that time he has been eratic and unreliable. That's not kicking him. That's being real. I wish him the best of luck.

 

[JCSunsfan]

The Cam Payne hagiography is crazy around here. He's a little guy that tries hard, but was becoming unreliable two years ago, and then between injuries/ineffectiveness, he was completely useless last year.

The league figured him out - Cam is just another mercurial undersized guard who can get hot in a minute but also can shoot/turnover you out of a game quickly.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Thoughtful response, thx.

 

[Superbone]

Thoughtful response, thx.

Hey, I learned a new word. Thank you!

 

[Yuma]

Do you really think the Suns are going to get another point guard as good as Cam Payne with one of the trade exceptions?

And if they do use one of the trade exceptions, the Suns are right back where they started, paying the extra luxury tax.

No. They have ball handlers and they aren't needing Payne. If they needed Payne, they would have kept him.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I don’t think Cam Payne was a good backup PG. That seems to be where the difference of opinion is. I don’t think he was reliable and I don’t think the Suns need him. Maybe they don’t use the TPE’s. That‘s possible but I like having the option and I doubt Payne was going to see much playing time this season with all the ball handlers. I could be wrong. However, paying the luxury tax and having one less TPE for a guy we can’t depend on seems worth it to me. If Payne was the Payne from the bubble? That would be different.

My quibble is it’s not like we wouldn’t have the option of having a 6.5 trade piece if we kept Payne. He’s an expiring contract so he could have been traded pretty easily if he a) didn’t fit and b) wanted a different small piece.

It’s not that big of a deal, but seems more like a cost cutting move over having as many ball handling options as possible for a team trying to win a title… that has legit injury concerns with 3 of its 4 ball handlers.

 

[Cheesebeef]

No. They have ball handlers and they aren't needing Payne. If they needed Payne, they would have kept him.

Title teams can never have enough ball handlers.

 

[Mainstreet]

No. They have ball handlers and they aren't needing Payne. If they needed Payne, they would have kept him.

The Suns have enough ball handlers if everyone stays healthy. I have always encouraged depth at this position. I can't remember when it hasn't proved necessary.

 

[Yuma]

We have Booker, Beal, KD, Okogie, Goodwin, Gordon, Lee, Etc.....

 

[AzStevenCal]

We have Booker, Beal, KD, Okogie, Goodwin, Gordon, Lee, Etc.....

Yeah if we're short at any spot it's the guys that can defend the big bruisers. If we're healthy. If we're not healthy, a lack of ballhandlers will just be one of our problems.

 

[Mainstreet]

I didn't forget anymore than you "forgot" to mention how he played for much of the series which was my point. Pointing out how unreliable he has been and you think that is running over him but then going out of your way to point out a 31 point effort in a loss while leaving the rest of the series out is ironic. I seem to remember you saying earlier in the season as well we needed an upgrade at backup PG. So, getting bent about a 6 million dollar a year player seems ironic as well.

He played well in the bubble. He played well the following season until the end of the season. Since that time he has been eratic and unreliable. That's not kicking him. That's being real. I wish him the best of luck.

I was giving you an example, and I can give you more over the three plus seasons Cam Payne has played with the Suns.

You will almost always hear me clamor for more depth at point guard (distributors) and power forward because these two positions are critical to a team. They can play all five positions if necessary.

IMO, these positions should always be at least three deep if not more if a team is vying for a championship.