A Tale of Two Drafts

[CFLredzoned]

It's pretty clear that when they constructed their board, character and intelligence weighed much more heavily into a guy's ranking than in years past. I think the 2, 3, and 4 picks fall into that category for sure. Keim from their press conference:

"Over the years, I keep evolving, trying to grow in my position, and again as I keep looking back, whether it's taking chances on small school guys that didn't have the DNA or the mental makeup, or even guys that are extremely talented that maybe don't love it enough, that's where you get yourself in a bind, that I've almost promised myself that we would take guys, even if they were less talented, that they have that makeup, that you would take those guys first. And that's exactly the mindset that coach had when he came in and we talked in his interview. He wanted guys with our kind of DNA. So especially in our first draft together, we wanted to make a statement."

 

[Arz101]

Keim time magic ( prove it deals) has netted great contributor's on defense over offense the last 5 years. I think that resulted in taking less defensive players in draft.

So, cards must have a plan to bring in much needed defensive help beween now and August. Cannot wait to see it unfold. Exciting times!



Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk

 

[Chris_Sanders]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...draft-final-quicksnap-grades-for-all-32-teams

Arizona Cardinals
Draft picks: UCLA QB Josh Rosen (No. 10 overall), Texas A&M WR Christian Kirk (No. 47 overall), Michigan C Mason Cole (No. 97 overall), Fordham RB Chase Edmonds (No. 134 overall), Penn State DB Christian Campbell (No. 182 overall), Cincinnati OT Korey Cunningham (No. 254 overall).
Day 1 grade: A
Day 2 grade: A
Day 3 grade: A
Overall grade: A
The skinny: Rosen is the best pure pocket passer in the draft. The Cardinals need to protect him, but if they do, he'll be a Pro Bowler. Giving up third- and fifth-round picks was more than reasonable for a player with his potential. Kirk is an excellent fit, not only because of his skills but the impending retirement of Larry Fitzgerald. Cole brings versatility to the Cardinals, as he started at center and tackle for Michigan. He was picked a little early for my taste, but he'll be a consistent contributor on Sundays. Edmonds was a worthy fourth-round pick, sort of a smaller version of all-around offensive weapon David Johnson. Campbell is a versatile athlete able to play outside corner or free safety, two areas of need for the team.

Only 4 teams given straight As

 

[BullheadCardFan]

USA giving Cards some love:

NFL draft grades 2018: Which teams had best, worst classes?

https://usat.ly/

That link took me to the front page. Here is a link directly to the draft ratings.

You must be registered for see images attach

[URL='https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/draft/2018/04/28/nfl-draft-grades-teams-2018-giants-patriots-cowboys-jets/562265002/']NFL draft grades: Who had best, worst classes.[/URL]

 

[cardncubfan]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...draft-final-quicksnap-grades-for-all-32-teams

Arizona Cardinals
Draft picks: UCLA QB Josh Rosen (No. 10 overall), Texas A&M WR Christian Kirk (No. 47 overall), Michigan C Mason Cole (No. 97 overall), Fordham RB Chase Edmonds (No. 134 overall), Penn State DB Christian Campbell (No. 182 overall), Cincinnati OT Korey Cunningham (No. 254 overall).
Day 1 grade: A
Day 2 grade: A
Day 3 grade: A
Overall grade: A
The skinny: Rosen is the best pure pocket passer in the draft. The Cardinals need to protect him, but if they do, he'll be a Pro Bowler. Giving up third- and fifth-round picks was more than reasonable for a player with his potential. Kirk is an excellent fit, not only because of his skills but the impending retirement of Larry Fitzgerald. Cole brings versatility to the Cardinals, as he started at center and tackle for Michigan. He was picked a little early for my taste, but he'll be a consistent contributor on Sundays. Edmonds was a worthy fourth-round pick, sort of a smaller version of all-around offensive weapon David Johnson. Campbell is a versatile athlete able to play outside corner or free safety, two areas of need for the team.

Only 4 teams given straight As

But, but Keim sucks at drafting....

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

As some have noted, the draft yielded QBOF without giving up this years 2nd, or next years 1st. its a win right there.

Adding a dynamic playmaker for the return game/ at wideout is a giant bonus. My guess is that McCoy's offense might feature more mid range routes than what we are used to with BA.

As for the rest, i pay attention to Harrys POV. He is the only guy posting here that actually has been paid for his scouting opinions.

It does seem the Cards board does differ from the rest of the league/ consensus pretty wildly. as an example: Chase Edmunds.

The player has some interesting attributes -- but it seems to this amateur that small school + injury history suggests well later than the fourth round.

I certainly respect everyone's opinions, but the fact that he has been paid to scout in the past does not suggest that he is right or wrong about these picks.

Plenty of draft experts around the country love the Cards draft and those guys get paid to evaluate NFL talent and give their opinions on them as well.

Also I would question if he actually did his own scouting of every player in this draft to include the ones that the Cards picked, especially to the extent that the team did.

Again none of what I stated proves him wrong, but it does give some of us a reason to have a differing opinion. Especially considering the team's themselves aren't even on the same page as one another about these prospects.

 

[Harry]

I certainly respect everyone's opinions, but the fact that he has been paid to scout in the past does not suggest that he is right or wrong about these picks.

Plenty of draft experts around the country love the Cards draft and those guys get paid to evaluate NFL talent and give their opinions on them as well.

Also I would question if he actually did his own scouting of every player in this draft to include the ones that the Cards picked, especially to the extent that the team did.

Again none of what I stated proves him wrong, but it does give some of us a reason to have a differing opinion. Especially considering the team's themselves aren't even on the same page as one another about these prospects.

No I didn’t attend all the games needed to see these guys play live. I did see film on all of them.

I completely agree that scouts differ markedly on their opinion of players. None of my evaluations were done on stone tablets. Read my last post on Edmunds & blockers. Other scouts and I likely saw the same film and came to different conclusions.

I have posted often that I don’t travel like I used to do and sometimes get impressions by directly going to other evaluators. If I used others’ evals we wouldn’t differ since you guys say everyone else loves Edmonds.

Did I scout as much as the 20 or so scouting guys on the Cards payroll? I think they also still get BLESTO data. So, of course not. I’m giving my opinion. It’s okay if you think it’s worth what you paid for it. If I didn’t welcome other opinions, I’d get my own webpage!

 

[gimpy]

What? Ah, come on Mi..., I mean Harry.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I certainly respect everyone's opinions, but the fact that he has been paid to scout in the past does not suggest that he is right or wrong about these picks.

Plenty of draft experts around the country love the Cards draft and those guys get paid to evaluate NFL talent and give their opinions on them as well.

Also I would question if he actually did his own scouting of every player in this draft to include the ones that the Cards picked, especially to the extent that the team did.

Again none of what I stated proves him wrong, but it does give some of us a reason to have a differing opinion. Especially considering the team's themselves aren't even on the same page as one another about these prospects.

The people you reference aren’t paid by teams like harry was. That affords his opinion greater credibility in my book. It also means I GREATLY value his opinion (and that’s all it is so I don’t get all you guys getting your panties in a bunch over his comments) over the rest of you yarlmucks.

 

[az jam]

I respect everyone's opinion even that kid, Harry. (note my age is 75) I've been a draftnik for over 60 years so the qualifies me as making more bad calls than most on this board. I like the Rosen and Kirk picks. I think Cole can be a good center. I didn't like the RB Edmunds pick in the 4th round and clueless on the last 2 picks. Being a season ticket holder, the worthless preseason games (from a paying fans perspective) could be interesting seeing Rosen play.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

The people you reference aren’t paid by teams like harry was. That affords his opinion greater credibility in my book. It also means I GREATLY value his opinion (and that’s all it is so I don’t get all you guys getting your panties in a bunch over his comments) over the rest of you yarlmucks.

But that gives him more credibility than the Cardinals scouts that he admitted he wasn't able to scout as in depth as?

Even teams in the NFL don't see eye to eye from one prospect to the next and they pay many scouts to do even more in depth research than Harry.

By your logic you should simply just have faith that the Cardinals made the right picks because they have indeed done more in depth research on all of these guys than any of us have.

All of that said, I don't have an issue with someone not liking a pick or disagreeing with a pick that the team made. I just can't get behind the idea that they feel so strongly about it to the point that they are getting angry. Harry even stated that he tried to go to dinner to "cool off". Seriously? He knows that even he has been wrong about plenty of prospects before, because all scouts have.

 

[football karma]

I certainly respect everyone's opinions, but the fact that he has been paid to scout in the past does not suggest that he is right or wrong about these picks.

to be clear: i value Harry's POV and give it weight

i dont consider him to be infallible. A guy i think is one of the best GMs in the game -- Ozzie Newsome -- drafts lots of busts. It comes with the territory

 

[PJ1]

I don't spend near as much time as some getting ready for the draft but still was confused by what the Cards did. I loved the first two picks. After that I just didn't get it either.

We did take the best center available in the third. Best player? Nobody could really make that argument.

Edmunds? Didn't get it. Doubt this kid would have been drafted. Scarborough and Kelly from Tn. are better than this kid will ever be IMO.

The last two? I have no idea but again I doubt they would have been drafted.

I know late rounds are a crap shoot and to me the Cards still had a good draft, but I can absolutely understand where Harry is coming from on the later picks.

 

[overseascardfan]

I was amazed that first 2 days Keim looked like he had changed his draft philosophy by going with known guys from big programs but then did a 180 on the last day taking 3 relatively unknown guys, one of which (Campbell) was a career backup. There were a lot of big names on the board on the third day that they chose to ignore, granted they dropped for a reason but at least they were known commodities.

Instead of going with a proven solid OT like Jamarco Jones they go for a guy that is destined at best for practice squad. I know Jones did not test well and Cunningham did but Jones played against some big time competition and was known to never miss assignments and only gave up 2 sacks last year. Jones is not a great athlete but he got the job done playing in the Big 10.

They went with Campbell, when guys like McFadden & Meeks were on the board, granted both went undrafted, had ARZ not took Campbell he probably would have went undrafted as well. At least Meeks & McFadden got on the field in college, Campbell started 4 games his entire PSU career and has arguably more flaws than McFadden or Meeks.

Guys like St Brown, Ejiofor, Tate, Hurst & Crosby were available but we went with lesser known players. Some will say Edmonds will help but he has a lot of wear and tear on his small frame and he suffered an ankle injury his SR year which kept him out half the year. Bo Scarborough was available and would have been a better back up to Johnson IMO.

 

[juza76]

I was amazed that first 2 days Keim looked like he had changed his draft philosophy by going with known guys from big programs but then did a 180 on the last day taking 3 relatively unknown guys, one of which (Campbell) was a career backup. There were a lot of big names on the board on the third day that they chose to ignore, granted they dropped for a reason but at least they were known commodities.

Instead of going with a proven solid OT like Jamarco Jones they go for a guy that is destined at best for practice squad. I know Jones did not test well and Cunningham did but Jones played against some big time competition and was known to never miss assignments and only gave up 2 sacks last year. Jones is not a great athlete but he got the job done playing in the Big 10.

They went with Campbell, when guys like McFadden & Meeks were on the board, granted both went undrafted, had ARZ not took Campbell he probably would have went undrafted as well. At least Meeks & McFadden got on the field in college, Campbell started 4 games his entire PSU career and has arguably more flaws than McFadden or Meeks.

Guys like St Brown, Ejiofor, Tate, Hurst & Crosby were available but we went with lesser known players. Some will say Edmonds will help but he has a lot of wear and tear on his small frame and he suffered an ankle injury his SR year which kept him out half the year. Bo Scarborough was available and would have been a better back up to Johnson IMO.

penn state is not a small school and campbell was a starter last year
is cincinnati a small school program? i dont think so, especially when u pick a guy in the 7th round

the only player from a small school was edmonds but even david johnson came out from a small college too, a rb's has a lower learning curve
UCLA
TEXAM A&M
MICHIGAN
FORDHAM
PENN STATE
CINCINNATI

 

[cardncubfan]

http://www.azcardinals.com/videos/v...ituation/f1968741-47dc-40dc-9c36-e94bddd44bf0

 

[Hypothesis]

I was amazed that first 2 days Keim looked like he had changed his draft philosophy by going with known guys from big programs but then did a 180 on the last day taking 3 relatively unknown guys, one of which (Campbell) was a career backup. There were a lot of big names on the board on the third day that they chose to ignore, granted they dropped for a reason but at least they were known commodities.

Instead of going with a proven solid OT like Jamarco Jones they go for a guy that is destined at best for practice squad. I know Jones did not test well and Cunningham did but Jones played against some big time competition and was known to never miss assignments and only gave up 2 sacks last year. Jones is not a great athlete but he got the job done playing in the Big 10.

They went with Campbell, when guys like McFadden & Meeks were on the board, granted both went undrafted, had ARZ not took Campbell he probably would have went undrafted as well. At least Meeks & McFadden got on the field in college, Campbell started 4 games his entire PSU career and has arguably more flaws than McFadden or Meeks.

Guys like St Brown, Ejiofor, Tate, Hurst & Crosby were available but we went with lesser known players. Some will say Edmonds will help but he has a lot of wear and tear on his small frame and he suffered an ankle injury his SR year which kept him out half the year. Bo Scarborough was available and would have been a better back up to Johnson IMO.

And yet Campbell had arguably better production than those two who started more. McFadden is dreadfully slow, which is the biggest reason he went undrafted. He is also solely limited to zone coverage due to his limitations with his back pedal and transition and make up speed. His ball awareness and instincts also sorely lack.


We already have Elijah Penny. We don't need another bruising back behind David. We need someone who has the versatility to run, catch and line up in different positions like we use DJ.

 

[pinetopred]

The kid from Cinncy was being pushed by Ray Brown pretty hard from article I read. If he saw something he thinks he can work with I'm good with that selection.

Cambell I'm sorta lack luster about didn't show much until last year maybe a late bloomer but probably just not very good.

Edmunds didn't hate the position pick didn't care for his size I was hoping for a little bigger body back. I think we already had the scat back sized guy in Logan. It's all a crap shoot if the new coaching staff can develop talent they may all be fine.

 

[overseascardfan]

penn state is not a small school and campbell was a starter last year
is cincinnati a small school program? i dont think so, especially when u pick a guy in the 7th round

the only player from a small school was edmonds but even david johnson came out from a small college too, a rb's has a lower learning curve
UCLA
TEXAM A&M
MICHIGAN
FORDHAM
PENN STATE
CINCINNATI

I said "relatively unknown" in referencing the three not small school with the exception of Edmonds.

And yet Campbell had arguably better production than those two who started more. McFadden is dreadfully slow, which is the biggest reason he went undrafted. He is also solely limited to zone coverage due to his limitations with his back pedal and transition and make up speed. His ball awareness and instincts also sorely lack.


We already have Elijah Penny. We don't need another bruising back behind David. We need someone who has the versatility to run, catch and line up in different positions like we use DJ.

Draft Projection
Rounds 7-PFA
Overview
Long corner lacking the fluidity and twitch to stay connected with intermediate and deep routes. Campbell looks more comfortable playing off the line where his long arms have a shot to cover for his inconsistent footwork. He's not a fluid enough athlete and hasn't made enough plays on the ball to warrant much excitement, but if he runs well, his size and speed could get him drafted.

I also mentioned Meeks who was available but both Meeks & McFadden were much more productive in their college careers.

Did you forget we have TJ Logan on roster?

 

[Hypothesis]

I said "relatively unknown" in referencing the three not small school with the exception of Edmonds.


Draft Projection
Rounds 7-PFA
Overview
Long corner lacking the fluidity and twitch to stay connected with intermediate and deep routes. Campbell looks more comfortable playing off the line where his long arms have a shot to cover for his inconsistent footwork. He's not a fluid enough athlete and hasn't made enough plays on the ball to warrant much excitement, but if he runs well, his size and speed could get him drafted.

I also mentioned Meeks who was available but both Meeks & McFadden were much more productive in their college careers.

Did you forget we have TJ Logan on roster?

Tarvarus McFadden was repeatedly left in the dust and was among the collegiate worst for allowing opponent TD's. He did have 10 pass breakups. 0 INT's last year.

Quenton Meeks had 7 total pass breakups. 2 INT's last year.

Chris Campbell allowed the 4th lowest opponent QBR of any CB his Junior year and had 12 pass breakups and 13 deflections this year. 1 INT last year. While he is better suited for zone, he does offer more system flexibility than the other 2.

Hard pressed to find any indication that McFadden and Meeks were much more productive than Campbell.

Regarding Logan, no I didn't forget he was on the roster, however I do not see him as a compliment to DJ or a suitable 3rd down back. He is nothing more than a return man in my eyes until he shows otherwise.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

But that gives him more credibility than the Cardinals scouts that he admitted he wasn't able to scout as in depth as?

Even teams in the NFL don't see eye to eye from one prospect to the next and they pay many scouts to do even more in depth research than Harry.

By your logic you should simply just have faith that the Cardinals made the right picks because they have indeed done more in depth research on all of these guys than any of us have.

All of that said, I don't have an issue with someone not liking a pick or disagreeing with a pick that the team made. I just can't get behind the idea that they feel so strongly about it to the point that they are getting angry. Harry even stated that he tried to go to dinner to "cool off". Seriously? He knows that even he has been wrong about plenty of prospects before, because all scouts have.

I never said I didn’t give the cards scouts credit. And I never said we should all defer to harry. I’m saying his is an opinion. And it’s an opinion that i personally give more credence than those on this board who lack his experience. I think people get mad on here at harry because he’s frustrated at the picks. But that makes sense to me because he has industry experience.

Here’s my analogy:

If an investment advisor took over my company’s 401(k) and made fund changes that I thought sucked I would think that my coworkers would understand my anger as that’s where my experience lies.

 

[football karma]

the day 3 Keim formula:

1. NFL quality size/speed/athleticism
2. High character off the field
3. Loves the game
4. OK with ? on production / performance

i think he is looking for guys that have the potential to be coached into good NFL players --and the willingness to work to do it

said differently, a left tackle can have all the technique, productivity, etc you would want, but if he doesnt have the frame to get to 280 lbs+, or lacks foot speed, etc -- then why bother? Coaching cant change DNA.

so i think for the Cards board, Keim knocks people off because of 2 and 3 -- things the average draft ranking, especially for day 3 picks likely dont take into account.

will it work? i dunno. it sounds good, but a team of 22 "Rudys" goes 2-14

 

[ajcardfan]

The truth is that everything after round 3 is a crap shoot. If one of the last 3 picks contribute at all this season then it will be considered a wild success.

Correct. Basically, they are slightly fancier prospects than UDFAs. We know we will get a few guys on the squad from Rd 4 through UDFA. But, they are ALL shots in the dark. I just cannot get very upset about a freaking 6th round pick.

 

[ajcardfan]

I never said I didn’t give the cards scouts credit. And I never said we should all defer to harry. I’m saying his is an opinion. And it’s an opinion that i personally give more credence than those on this board who lack his experience. I think people get mad on here at harry because he’s frustrated at the picks. But that makes sense to me because he has industry experience.

Here’s my analogy:

If an investment advisor took over my company’s 401(k) and made fund changes that I thought sucked I would think that my coworkers would understand my anger as that’s where my experience lies.

No I didn’t attend all the games needed to see these guys play live. I did see film on all of them.

I completely agree that scouts differ markedly on their opinion of players. None of my evaluations were done on stone tablets. Read my last post on Edmunds & blockers. Other scouts and I likely saw the same film and came to different conclusions.

I have posted often that I don’t travel like I used to do and sometimes get impressions by directly going to other evaluators. If I used others’ evals we wouldn’t differ since you guys say everyone else loves Edmonds.

Did I scout as much as the 20 or so scouting guys on the Cards payroll? I think they also still get BLESTO data. So, of course not. I’m giving my opinion. It’s okay if you think it’s worth what you paid for it. If I didn’t welcome other opinions, I’d get my own webpage!

At this point, we've all been through this many times. NFL GM's are doing well if HALF their picks pan out. We can all slap a bunch of names out there, and we'll be doing pretty good if we are 50/50 correct.

It's not life and death. It's just opinions on football players. Lighten up and have fun. Outside this message board, no one gives a crap what we say.

 

[don7031]

https://www.milehighreport.com/2014/5/13/5713996/how-long-does-the-average-draft-pick-stick-around

The first two rounds are where the core players are found.

Third round and beyond are players who most likely won't make it though their rookie contract.