A Tale of Two Drafts

[Krangodnzr]

What I notice from following this process for years now (since like 1998) is that what draft experts and fans see vs. what teams see is very different. Fans build their view off of watching games and reading what draft experts think. Draft experts build their view off of watching games and limited conversations with teams. Teams build their view off of game film, talking to college coaches, visiting/interviews with players, and going to practices.

Take the Edmunds pick for example. It sounds like the Cardinals thoroughly investigated the kid. They love him and love his skill set. He tests pretty well and his tape is good. They vetted him extensively. I give them the benefit of the doubt on this pick.

Chris Campbell. According to PFF and a number others, he is a guy who is really on the rise. Underwhelming production first years in college, but really came on strong last year. Ranked in the 99th percentile for SPARQ which has been accurate in the past in IDing top players. What that means is that he has the measureables to become a really good CB. That is the exact kind of guy I take a shot on in the 6th round, not a 5'9, 180 4.6 40 guy that most teams are taking in the 6th round. Sure that 5'9 guy might have good game tape but his potential is usually very limited. Take a shot on a guy that good coaching can develop. Richard Sherman fit this kind of profile going in the draft years ago. I long corner with limited starting experience who was ascending.

Cunningham is your typical end of the draft type of player, but again, he has great measureables and great measureables means he could develop more.

I love the Rosen and Kirk picks without reservations. I think they become the bedrock of the Cardinals future passing game. I'm more ho hum on Cole, but I think he represents filling a need from a very limited shallow pool at that point in the draft. He has good tape, but I think his ceiling is good starter and that often is a turn off for most.

 

[Buckeye Cardinal]

What I notice from following this process for years now (since like 1998) is that what draft experts and fans see vs. what teams see is very different. Fans build their view off of watching games and reading what draft experts think. Draft experts build their view off of watching games and limited conversations with teams. Teams build their view off of game film, talking to college coaches, visiting/interviews with players, and going to practices.

Take the Edmunds pick for example. It sounds like the Cardinals thoroughly investigated the kid. They love him and love his skill set. He tests pretty well and his tape is good. They vetted him extensively. I give them the benefit of the doubt on this pick.

Chris Campbell. According to PFF and a number others, he is a guy who is really on the rise. Underwhelming production first years in college, but really came on strong last year. Ranked in the 99th percentile for SPARQ which has been accurate in the past in IDing top players. What that means is that he has the measureables to become a really good CB. That is the exact kind of guy I take a shot on in the 6th round, not a 5'9, 180 4.6 40 guy that most teams are taking in the 6th round. Sure that 5'9 guy might have good game tape but his potential is usually very limited. Take a shot on a guy that good coaching can develop. Richard Sherman fit this kind of profile going in the draft years ago. I long corner with limited starting experience who was ascending.

Cunningham is your typical end of the draft type of player, but again, he has great measureables and great measureables means he could develop more.

I love the Rosen and Kirk picks without reservations. I think they become the bedrock of the Cardinals future passing game. I'm more ho hum on Cole, but I think he represents filling a need from a very limited shallow pool at that point in the draft. He has good tape, but I think his ceiling is good starter and that often is a turn off for most.

Best post I’ve read this weekend.

 

[notdeadyet]

I wouldn't judge what a player can or can't do until our *brand new* coaching staff has worked with them for a while. They are all supposed to be great teachers, so let's see where we are come the 2018 regular season.

 

[Krangodnzr]

My angst at the Cardinals drafts over the Keim regime fits with what a lot of others think around here. He has blown too many 1st and 2nd rounders. I generally like what he has done on day three throughout.

It's funny because from the beginning, Keim has not been good with 1st rounders. Keim has stated on a number of occasions that the lesson he has learned from his mistakes was not judging players on whether they loved football or not. I think this is a shot at Cooper. Cooper just didn't seem to have the intensity that you want from a top guard.

Bucannon is a solid player, but I think he was a reach to fill a need. The team immediately tabbed him as the $LB and while he has been a solid starter, I think they probably couldve traded down one more time and gotten him later.

Nkemdiche fits with the same idea as Cooper, I don't think he loves football enough.

What I like about Rosen is that his biography clearly shows that he is super competitive and that he will want to be a winner. He's been a winner and competitor his whole life and I bet he is the type of guy who gets super pissed if he loses a foosball game. That's the type of guy who excels in the NFL. My only concern with Rosen is that I think the dude may end up being the next Sam Bradford.....good QB but hurt too often.

 

[JeffGollin]

Unknown factor:

Impact of different position coaches in the development of individual players.

I'm hoping that Ray Brown is a major OL influence.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Unknown factor:

Impact of different position coaches in the development of individual players.

I'm hoping that Ray Brown is a major OL influence.

I'm kind of skeptical of this because I followed the Seahawks a lot of the past few years since I lived in Washington for about 7 years. The Seahawks always drafted Tom Cable players and it was a disaster of epic proportions because Cable didn't seem to actually have an eye for OL talent. Hopefully Ray Brown has a better eye.

 

[notdeadyet]

From what I have read and seen, Edmonds has been an avid weight lifter since HS and is stronger than he looks. Videos show him breaking many ankle tackles and he has a great spin move and he's got serious lateral quickness. I can see an exceptional sense of balance when he runs. In an interview after he was drafted he mentioned he was expecting to be used in the slot as well as at RB. BTW, he spent some time with Belichick before the draft, so was being considered there too...

 

[TJ]

Draft was fine. Anyone expecting home run picks Day 3 is being unreasonable, although I think Campbell was a very solid pick. Few think that Rosen and/or Kirk will be flops. One of Cunningham or Cole will pan out.

Very good chance we come out of this draft with four starters, one of which being a QBoF.

 

[Praxis]

I'm satisfied with the draft. Rosen and Kirk could become one of the top tandems in football. I like Chris Campbell the most of the other picks. Go

 

[Carolinacacti]

We all new the Cards needed play makers on the offensive side. But I really thought they would go defense and wait tell next year to work on the 0. Good sign that the new coaching staff likes what they see on defense. I like that they are bringing in a ton of undrafted LB's. Draft is getting a A from me.

 

[ProdigalSun]

I'm kind of skeptical of this because I followed the Seahawks a lot of the past few years since I lived in Washington for about 7 years. The Seahawks always drafted Tom Cable players and it was a disaster of epic proportions because Cable didn't seem to actually have an eye for OL talent. Hopefully Ray Brown has a better eye.

Im still living in the Seattle area and witnessed the debacle firsthand. They let arrogance get the best of them after that magical 2011 class. First trading Max Unger away and then believing that they could convert defensive line guys into offensive linemen. At least Ray Brown will be working with guys that are actually O-linemen

 

[overseascardfan]

Tarvarus McFadden was repeatedly left in the dust and was among the collegiate worst for allowing opponent TD's. He did have 10 pass breakups. 0 INT's last year.

Quenton Meeks had 7 total pass breakups. 2 INT's last year.

Chris Campbell allowed the 4th lowest opponent QBR of any CB his Junior year and had 12 pass breakups and 13 deflections this year. 1 INT last year. While he is better suited for zone, he does offer more system flexibility than the other 2.

Hard pressed to find any indication that McFadden and Meeks were much more productive than Campbell.

Regarding Logan, no I didn't forget he was on the roster, however I do not see him as a compliment to DJ or a suitable 3rd down back. He is nothing more than a return man in my eyes until he shows otherwise.

I meant throughout their careers, not just last year. The fact that he couldn't get on the field until his SR year doesn't say much for him as PSU didn't have NFL caliber CB's in front of him on the depth chart. We'll see, I hope he pans out but more than likely ARZ will still be searching for their #2 CB.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Im still living in the Seattle area and witnessed the debacle firsthand. They let arrogance get the best of them after that magical 2011 class. First trading Max Unger away and then believing that they could convert defensive line guys into offensive linemen. At least Ray Brown will be working with guys that are actually O-linemen

It's funny...outside of their first draft or two, the Seahawks haven't had a ton of success identifying and developing talent. They have been awful identifying OL talent. Awful. Worse than the Cardinals because they have used so many picks there and a lot of the guys they have identified were laughably bad picks.

Just look at Schneiders drafts over the past 3-4 years and they just aren't very good anymore.

 

[Hypothesis]

I meant throughout their careers, not just last year. The fact that he couldn't get on the field until his SR year doesn't say much for him as PSU didn't have NFL caliber CB's in front of him on the depth chart. We'll see, I hope he pans out but more than likely ARZ will still be searching for their #2 CB.

He was actually on the field quite a bit prior to his senior year. He's contributed pretty heavily since he was a freshman. He just didn't start until he was a senior and a handful of games his junior year. Before he started he played slot/nickel very extensively.

And if you are going off of career numbers, sure Meeks put up more tackles and int's but he also gave up more td's per snap played and allowed higher qbr .McFadden is worse than Campbell career-wise despite playing more total snaps.

Biggest knock on Campbell regarding stats is his lack of int's.

 

[ProdigalSun]

It's funny...outside of their first draft or two, the Seahawks haven't had a ton of success identifying and developing talent. They have been awful identifying OL talent. Awful. Worse than the Cardinals because they have used so many picks there and a lot of the guys they have identified were laughably bad picks.

Just look at Schneiders drafts over the past 3-4 years and they just aren't very good anymore.

Yeah it was funny...I was watching the draft with some Hawks fans up here and they were all getting pissy at me after I starting cracking up hard after each of their picks

 

[Arz101]

It's funny...outside of their first draft or two, the Seahawks haven't had a ton of success identifying and developing talent. They have been awful identifying OL talent. Awful. Worse than the Cardinals because they have used so many picks there and a lot of the guys they have identified were laughably bad picks.

Just look at Schneiders drafts over the past 3-4 years and they just aren't very good anymore.

Does the timeline match with Scott McLoughlin's departure?


I think after Hawks, 49ers and Redskins turnaround and if Scott mcloughlin can turn around Browns, the man should be in Hall of Fame.

Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk

 

[Praxis]

Mel Kiper Jr. Draft Grade:

Arizona Cardinals: C+
Top needs: Wide receiver, quarterback, defensive back

The Cardinals were in the market for a quarterback. If Sam Bradford is your projected starter, you have to be. Nobody questions Bradford's talent, everyone knows Bradford's injury history. It is what it is. The Cardinals gave up a third- and a fifth-rounder to move up the five spots to draft Josh Rosen at 10th overall, and given that he's quite literally my No. 10 overall prospect in this class, I'd say the value lines up. But there are question marks.

Rosen has pocket awareness, touch, timing and will occasionally make a throw that will have you hitting rewind in appreciation. He also has missed time over each of the last two seasons with concussions and a shoulder injury -- his throwing shoulder. I think there's a decent possibility that he's the first rookie starter out of this group. How he holds up (the Arizona O-line would make me hesitate) is the question early on.

Christian Kirk (pick 42) is a smooth route-runner, but more likely a useful slot fit than the eventual replacement for Larry Fitzgerald. Mason Cole (97) could be a starter at center as soon as Week 1. Chase Edmonds (134) has talent and jumps into a scattershot mix behind David Johnson. Ultimately, it's all about Rosen, who has a high-end ceiling if he stays healthy.

 

[GatorAZ]

What’d he give the Bills?

 

[Praxis]

What’d he give the Bills?

Buffalo Bills: A
Top needs: Quarterback,offensive line, wide receiver

That the Bills were targeting a quarterback tends to make you forget this was a playoff team, so the first round was an interesting mix, as they added both high-upside potential at the game's most important position, and also immediate help at a spot where rookies can often be found contributing. They gave up some notable draft value in second-round picks to maneuver, but I'm not sure any team added this kind of high-upside talent. Key word: upside.

We know Josh Allen (pick 7) needs development as a player with great traits but lacking polish out of Wyoming, but development is a given for any QB. The addition of Tremaine Edmunds (16) means that the Bills managed to get two of my top 11 players in this draft class, and Edmunds is likely to help right away. The useful immediate help and long-range upside wasn't limited to Round 1, either. Harrison Phillips (96) is an interior disruptor who can jump into the mix in Week 1. Kyle Williams won't play forever (probably?) so this was a good fit. Taron Johnson (121) can get on the field early. He won't be a No. 1 corner, but in the fifth round, he's a decent get. Ray-Ray McCloud (187) is a wildcard, but he can jump into the return game and could factor into the wide receiver depth chart.

Yeah, it'll come down to Allen, but if he reaches his upside, you change the direction of the franchise. He could be a perfect fit in Buffalo. As it always goes with big bets on quarterbacks, time will tell the story.

 

[MadCardDisease]

This draft had about 12 blue chip players. After that it was fairly deep all the way through the second round. Then it really dropped off with questionable talent mid way through the 3rd round.

I'm stoked that Keim was able to move up and snag our QBOTF. What is the cherry on the top is that Keim didn't have to give up our 2nd rounder in that trade. That allowed the Cardinals to snag our Blue Chip prospect in Rosen. It also allowed the Cards to grab a solid starting prospect in Kirk.

All of the later round picks are just projects anyways. I know very little about any of them other than Cole who I think could be a solid player in time.

 

[cardncubfan]

Mel Kiper Jr. Draft Grade:

Arizona Cardinals: C+
Top needs: Wide receiver, quarterback, defensive back

The Cardinals were in the market for a quarterback. If Sam Bradford is your projected starter, you have to be. Nobody questions Bradford's talent, everyone knows Bradford's injury history. It is what it is. The Cardinals gave up a third- and a fifth-rounder to move up the five spots to draft Josh Rosen at 10th overall, and given that he's quite literally my No. 10 overall prospect in this class, I'd say the value lines up. But there are question marks.

Rosen has pocket awareness, touch, timing and will occasionally make a throw that will have you hitting rewind in appreciation. He also has missed time over each of the last two seasons with concussions and a shoulder injury -- his throwing shoulder. I think there's a decent possibility that he's the first rookie starter out of this group. How he holds up (the Arizona O-line would make me hesitate) is the question early on.

Christian Kirk (pick 42) is a smooth route-runner, but more likely a useful slot fit than the eventual replacement for Larry Fitzgerald. Mason Cole (97) could be a starter at center as soon as Week 1. Chase Edmonds (134) has talent and jumps into a scattershot mix behind David Johnson. Ultimately, it's all about Rosen, who has a high-end ceiling if he stays healthy.

Kiper is one of the worst talent evaluators out there.

 

[Dback Jon]

One of the challenges in scouting is projecting how players that DON'T play in a pro-style offense will play in the NFL. Too many play in the spread offense, and can't adjust.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

The truth is that everything after round 3 is a crap shoot. If one of the last 3 picks contribute at all this season then it will be considered a wild success.

I 100% agree.

I think the range of players after the middle of the 3rd round, in most drafts goes from 3rd round pick to UDFA for most teams, draft analysts, etc. etc.

I saw mock drafts with Quentin Meeks as a 2nd round pick, and he ended up a UDFA.

But, as Harry has posted, we all have our opinions.

As I stated in another thread, the Viking's UDFA looks like one of my mock drafts, LOL.

 

[MadCardDisease]

I think Keim put it the best:

“We got to the 79th pick and Coach and I looked at each other and we saw the players who were left on the board and I said, ‘I’m glad we have a potential franchise quarterback versus what was left,’ ” Keim said. “Not to take anything away with what was left on the board, but I would certainly do that again over and over.”

The pickings were getting really slim as the third round went on. Mostly just projects or red flags left.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I think Keim put it the best:



The pickings were getting really slim as the third round went on. Mostly just projects or red flags left.

TBF I don't think that was meant as a remark to the lack of talent in the third round, but that he doesn't regret losing out on the third round talent over having Rosen. Probably would have said the same thing regardless of how deep the draft was.