A Very Good Question

[Cardsfaninlouky]

Most NFL coaches have a specialty. It's exceedingly rare that a coach is good at all three phases. That's one of the more puzzling criticisms of Kingsbury. Even seasoned NFL assistants have the same issue.

I'd be a detractor if I didn't think Kingsbury had the ability to change. He has clearly demonstrated that. His offense now is very different than earlier. He's moved from primarily 10 personnel to a lot of 11 and quite a bit of 12 personnel. I'd wager he'd love to run less shotgun, but Kyler has said he prefers shotgun more.

Personally, I really like his leadership style. He takes all of the blame, none of the credit. You don't see him beating up on players. Look at the comments from Humphries and you can clearly see Arians demeanor rubbed him the wrong way. Players seem to like and respect Kingsbury. That feeling tends to spread when players talk to players from other teams.

I think he deserves quite a bit of the credit for the turnaround.

Nice take Krang. To hell with what Kyler wants (joke lol) put his butt under center & run more 12 & 21 personnel with misdirection, delayed drag routes & play action damnit lol. I like KK being a players coach but that could bite him also. When he takes the blame every time for players mistakes they will continue to think "coach KK has my back if I screw up"? So many different styles for coaches to motivate players. I do like that the players stand up for KK, it means they have his back also. BA was a stand up guy, called a spade a spade, told it like it was, some players loved it & others didn't. His way won him a SB, now, he had amazing talent & Tom Brady but he wasn't afraid to call out the GOAT. In today's NFL, I hope the way KK motivates gets us that SB we deserved back in 08.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

So if you asked me to pick a starter for playoff game today, I might take 2008 KW. I don't know. I might ask you to wait to see how K1 plays this Sunday vs. SEA.

Kurt Warner all day without a doubt

He knew how to pick apart a defense and knew where everyone was on every play

Not just winging it

Big difference in playoff games

 

[perivolaki]

I guess you mean Murray. I don’t dislike him. I think he’s a great athlete. I’m just skeptical he wants it bad enough to do what it takes to go all the way. He moved forward this year. Can he continue? If you mean Kingsbury, I think he stays but I would change.

I think the Cardinals and Murray could be a nightmare for opponents in the playoffs.

We all praise Murray for getting his yards then taking a slide. But what happens when the playoffs come around?

I think you could see KM extend those runs when you get to a playoff scenario. As BA said "No risk it no Biscuit."

 

[wit3card]

We never saw Kyler take a snap in the playoffs. We know for sure that we probably want Kyler more than Carson Palmer in a playoff scenario. But Kurt was good in the playoffs. So we will see. We might change our perception of KM vs KW in playoffs after 2-3 playoff games... Never forget the Bad Kurt Moment in the SB cost us the SB as of the catch oob ...

Kliff Kingsbury has made stady improvemnts every year. You can't argue about that. from 3-13 to 11-5 in 3 years that is something and we weren't loaded and only Wilkes was bad. We were left with the rest of the "all in" season.

And for Vance, I'm not sold on his D. It is to difficult to master, which can lead to big gains when you want to play bend don't break. I understand the Bend don't break philosophy and I think it is one of the two style that you can play nowadays (the other is to make splash plays, havoc and Turnovers). But for my own believe an easier system like Bill Belicheck uses it, would help us to get more out of our rookies and younger players. Because you always have one or two rookies or young players out there and that will impead you to get the best possible outcome from your D.

That said, Vance Joseph is now a hot candidate for a HC job. Held GB to low points, Rams to low points, Cowboys to low points.

If our D can do that in the playoffs, I'm quite confident that he will get at least 1 HC job just because, he was a HC and has shown he is capable of being a average to good DC.

 

[Chopper0080]

We never saw Kyler take a snap in the playoffs. We know for sure that we probably want Kyler more than Carson Palmer in a playoff scenario. But Kurt was good in the playoffs. So we will see. We might change our perception of KM vs KW in playoffs after 2-3 playoff games... Never forget the Bad Kurt Moment in the SB cost us the SB as of the catch oob ...

Kliff Kingsbury has made stady improvemnts every year. You can't argue about that. from 3-13 to 11-5 in 3 years that is something and we weren't loaded and only Wilkes was bad. We were left with the rest of the "all in" season.

And for Vance, I'm not sold on his D. It is to difficult to master, which can lead to big gains when you want to play bend don't break. I understand the Bend don't break philosophy and I think it is one of the two style that you can play nowadays (the other is to make splash plays, havoc and Turnovers). But for my own believe an easier system like Bill Belicheck uses it, would help us to get more out of our rookies and younger players. Because you always have one or two rookies or young players out there and that will impead you to get the best possible outcome from your D.

That said, Vance Joseph is now a hot candidate for a HC job. Held GB to low points, Rams to low points, Cowboys to low points.

If our D can do that in the playoffs, I'm quite confident that he will get at least 1 HC job just because, he was a HC and has shown he is capable of being a average to good DC.

Please let this happen.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Please let this happen.

I think the question is:

Is the personnel good enough to be a top ten defense?

If so, then Keim has done a decent enough job to stick around. I think Joseph on paper gets enough out of the group, but there are big moments where the defense folds when it shouldn't. Not enough to be fired though.

 

[ajcardfan]

I think the question is:

Is the personnel good enough to be a top ten defense?

If so, then Keim has done a decent enough job to stick around. I think Joseph on paper gets enough out of the group, but there are big moments where the defense folds when it shouldn't. Not enough to be fired though.

With one game left in the regular season our total team offense ranking is 8th and our total team defensive raking is 9th. All this talk about firing coaches has reached the sublime of fantasy.

If the three game losing streak was in September instead of December, and we were in the exact same spot as today, the outlook and tone around the team would be much, much more positive. But the results would not be any different at all.

 

[BulldogCard]

If K2 wins it all it likely would be gambling the whole time en route to his one SB Championship because it was bound to work once. Kyler Murray is just now getting hot at the right time. He missed some time. There's no easy scenario because even if they win, LAR lose; it's a tough road. They beat Dallas, then likely they have to go to GB. Or they have to go to TB or play the Saints at home. Unless K2 decides to leave to go to OU, I think the playoffs get him an extension. He is feeling his way through the dark and trying different experiments like K1 as a pocket passer, being a running team, K1 as a duel threat, different formations like 11 and 12 personnel, etc. He's keeping his composure during trying times and he cusses and gets angry, but still holds it together. Same with K1. Many times he could have lost it. He knows he still has a chance to get on a roll. That's if the offense with Hudson at center can gel.

 

[Chopper0080]

With one game left in the regular season our total team offense ranking is 8th and our total team defensive raking is 9th. All this talk about firing coaches has reached the sublime of fantasy.

If the three game losing streak was in September instead of December, and we were in the exact same spot as today, the outlook and tone around the team would be much, much more positive. But the results would not be any different at all.

Ok. Here is what this comes down to.

Roster building.

Veterans are expensive and rookies are cheap. As a QB grows, the playbook grows as well. That makes it more difficult for young skill players top catch up. So, most offenses get more expensive as the QB grows in the offense. This will happen with Kyler especially with his tendency to get banged up. Well, the same goes for defense and it's complexity and you can't afford both. So, our defense is good when we are spending as much on defense as we are on offense. We won't be able to do that for much longer. I would rather an easy transition to a DC who can implement a defense that develops young players vs alienate them.

 

[oaken1]

Ok. Here is what this comes down to.

Roster building.

Veterans are expensive and rookies are cheap. As a QB grows, the playbook grows as well. That makes it more difficult for young skill players top catch up. So, most offenses get more expensive as the QB grows in the offense. This will happen with Kyler especially with his tendency to get banged up. Well, the same goes for defense and it's complexity and you can't afford both. So, our defense is good when we are spending as much on defense as we are on offense. We won't be able to do that for much longer. I would rather an easy transition to a DC who can implement a defense that develops young players vs alienate them.

who is being alienated?? I see guys being made to earn their PT and I am okay with that.

on development.... hmmm, consecutive years with slow developing linebackers...while at the same time,...young and rookie DB;s are not only playing but playing quite well...

maybe our LB coach sucks ass at developing young guys?? I mean, its obvious our secondary coach is pretty good...our dline mostly under performs but its unclear if its due to scheme, coaching, or the combination of old players and late round draft picks....

I have heard our LB coach doesnt have the best reputation for excellence.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

who is being alienated?? I see guys being made to earn their PT and I am okay with that.

on development.... hmmm, consecutive years with slow developing linebackers...while at the same time,...young and rookie DB;s are not only playing but playing quite well...

Was just thinking today about how Marco Wilson has been effective as a rookie, which of course is in contrast to Simmons, Collins and even Reddick's rookie years.

Is CB just as mentally challenging as LB? Collins was slated to be the "QB" of the defense correct? So maybe it's not an apples to apples comparison - Marco vs. Zack as rookies.

 

[oaken1]

Was just thinking today about how Marco Wilson has been effective as a rookie, which of course is in contrast to Simmons, Collins and even Reddick's rookie years.

Is CB just as mentally challenging as LB? Collins was slated to be the "QB" of the defense correct? So maybe it's not an apples to apples comparison - Marco vs. Zack as rookies.

ILB is a tougher position to learn due to that guy needing to learn everyone's assignments on the defense. But Simmons wasn't tasked with learning that as far as I know.
But other than rookies our history still shows linebackers being slow to pick up the scheme or to maintain containment in the running game

 

[Totally_Red]

ILB is a tougher position to learn due to that guy needing to learn everyone's assignments on the defense. But Simmons wasn't tasked with learning that as far as I know.
But other than rookies our history still shows linebackers being slow to pick up the scheme or to maintain containment in the running game

Correct. ILB is the quarterback of the defense. It usually takes a year for most to do it well. It took Queen that long in Balt. And he came from an elite SEC program.

 

[Stout]

Was just thinking today about how Marco Wilson has been effective as a rookie, which of course is in contrast to Simmons, Collins and even Reddick's rookie years.

Is CB just as mentally challenging as LB? Collins was slated to be the "QB" of the defense correct? So maybe it's not an apples to apples comparison - Marco vs. Zack as rookies.

In VJ's defense, the ILBers have to know so many different situational possibilities it becomes prohibitively difficult for a young player to learn in time to contribute. The CBs, in contrast, are given simple assignments. This is why I think VJ needs to get flexible with Simmons, at least, if not Collins. Point Simmons at the A gap and enjoy the results.

 

[Chopper0080]

who is being alienated?? I see guys being made to earn their PT and I am okay with that.

on development.... hmmm, consecutive years with slow developing linebackers...while at the same time,...young and rookie DB;s are not only playing but playing quite well...

maybe our LB coach sucks ass at developing young guys?? I mean, its obvious our secondary coach is pretty good...our dline mostly under performs but its unclear if its due to scheme, coaching, or the combination of old players and late round draft picks....

I have heard our LB coach doesnt have the best reputation for excellence.

So you are 100% in that our scheme helps our young DBs because it plays so soft.

That said, do you feel like you are getting top 5 S production out of Budda Baker? That isn't a coaching issue or player issue, that is a scheme issue.

Do you like Joe Walker and Tanner Vallejo being your LBs next to 8 mil per year Jordan Hicks because that is the scheme you are getting. The Cardinals will be spending the 8th highest cap dollars on ILBs in 2022. Do you feel you are getting that production? Keep in mind that doesn't count Chandler/Kennard/Golden, EDGE is separate.

We will be spending the 4th most on DL in the NFL. Do you feel like our scheme is generating that level of production? DO you feel like the scheme is putting Lawrence, Allen and Fotu into the best positions to make an impact when they are dropping into coverage?

And before you question the coaches Vance has under him, he is the one who chooses to keep them. Kliff has gotten rid of guys already Vance chose to keep Billy Davis after what he saw from Simmons after an entire year. That is on him.

 

[Chopper0080]

Essentially keeping Vance Joseph is signing up for a scheme that devalues unique players. Budda is unique and devalued. Simmons is unique and devalued. Collins is unique and devalued. Chandler Jones is unique and devalued (how often do you see him lining up from a different spot?)

 

[oaken1]

So you are 100% in that our scheme helps our young DBs because it plays so soft.

That said, do you feel like you are getting top 5 S production out of Budda Baker? That isn't a coaching issue or player issue, that is a scheme issue.

Do you like Joe Walker and Tanner Vallejo being your LBs next to 8 mil per year Jordan Hicks because that is the scheme you are getting. The Cardinals will be spending the 8th highest cap dollars on ILBs in 2022. Do you feel you are getting that production? Keep in mind that doesn't count Chandler/Kennard/Golden, EDGE is separate.

We will be spending the 4th most on DL in the NFL. Do you feel like our scheme is generating that level of production? DO you feel like the scheme is putting Lawrence, Allen and Fotu into the best positions to make an impact when they are dropping into coverage?

And before you question the coaches Vance has under him, he is the one who chooses to keep them. Kliff has gotten rid of guys already Vance chose to keep Billy Davis after what he saw from Simmons after an entire year. That is on him.

what I am in on,...is the result. Thats it. cost means nothing, the money is spent...we got these guys and now we have to make a good defense out of them...and vance did.

doesnt matter what guys get paid...totally irrelevant.

say we got a 1mil Linebacker and a 20mil linebacker at the same spot..... but the 1mil guy gets more sacks tackles and PD's.... then you play the 1mil guy,...use the other guy as a backup. what a guy is being paid should always be irrelevant to a coach, his job is to build a unit with the players he has.... the money is on the GM...
I mean honestly,....if every single player on our defense was paid league minimum,...but we were number one and they all made the pro bowl... anybody gonna say we were screwing the players? anyone gonna complain that we shouldnt be getting that production because we aint paying for it? for a coach its not about maximizing production Vs dollars,...its about building a solid unit.

be a damned shame if everyone in the organization worked that way..... Rondale Moore be running wide open five yards behind the defense,...and Kyler decides he has to throw it to triple covered AJ Green 10 yards out because he needs to get the most out of Greens cost

maybe...I dont know... but maybe joseph cant fire davis?? The team has history with billy davis dont they?...the super bowl team?... but kliff is the HC, he can fire guys when he wants to.

 

[Chopper0080]

what I am in on,...is the result. Thats it. cost means nothing, the money is spent...we got these guys and now we have to make a good defense out of them...and vance did.

doesnt matter what guys get paid...totally irrelevant.

say we got a 1mil Linebacker and a 20mil linebacker at the same spot..... but the 1mil guy gets more sacks tackles and PD's.... then you play the 1mil guy,...use the other guy as a backup. what a guy is being paid should always be irrelevant to a coach, his job is to build a unit with the players he has.... the money is on the GM...
I mean honestly,....if every single player on our defense was paid league minimum,...but we were number one and they all made the pro bowl... anybody gonna say we were screwing the players? anyone gonna complain that we shouldnt be getting that production because we aint paying for it? for a coach its not about maximizing production Vs dollars,...its about building a solid unit.

be a damned shame if everyone in the organization worked that way..... Rondale Moore be running wide open five yards behind the defense,...and Kyler decides he has to throw it to triple covered AJ Green 10 yards out because he needs to get the most out of Greens cost

maybe...I dont know... but maybe joseph cant fire davis?? The team has history with billy davis dont they?...the super bowl team?... but kliff is the HC, he can fire guys when he wants to.

I get that you are on the result and that is where we disagree because I am about the process. The process is how you maintain success year over year vs just one year.

To your point this year, yes the cash is spent. But if we can't spend the same amount of cash next year then we have to have cheaper players filling roles that more expensive players struggled to fill. That leads to a decrease in productivity. So the process that got us here is very important because you have to consider if that is repeatable.

And players are paid more because they are deemed as being able to do more. Yes, with cost comes an expectation of production. You spend more on a product you generally expect that product to do more vs the cheaper model. You act like almost everything in life doesn't act that way. Kyler gets paid more than Colt McCoy, do you not expect more production out of Kyler vs Colt?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Not to mention it would make our rival better. McVay is DYING to hire KK as his OC.

I mean I guess that's subjective to how you feel about KK as a signal caller, but I personally believe that if he's left to focus on just the offensive side of things without the stress of being a HC, he'd torture defenses all over the league.

Where does this come from?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Matt Rhule looks like he is in way over his head.

For all of the Kliff hate, he has led the team to a 3+ win improvement every season. Noticeable improvement every season

We did not improve 3+ in his first season.

 

[THESMEL]

KK needs an OC. New run game coordinator that he listens to too.

 

[ajcardfan]

KK needs an OC. New run game coordinator that he listens to too.

Kugler got that position going into this season.

Cardinals promote OL coach Sean Kugler to run game coordinator

Kliff Kingsbury has raved about the help he's received from offensive line coach Sean Kugler, and the Arizona Cardinals rewarded Kugler with a promotion.

arizonasports.com

 

[carrrnuttt]

Where does this come from?

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

First off, Sean and KK are friends.

Report: Sean McVay reached out to Kliff Kingsbury about joining Rams

The Rams are interested in bringing Kliff Kingsbury aboard as an offensive assistant.

theramswire.usatoday.com

Had the Cards not hired KK as HC, I am very confident that KK would still have not ended up with USC and would have been hired by McVay.

Now that KK's offense has actually been proven in the NFL, you really think that Sean isn't going to entice KK (if KK's fired) by giving him the chance to stick it to the Cards twice a season?

 

[Krangodnzr]

We did not improve 3+ in his first season.

Season to season he has.

I wasn't adding in the year before he got here

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

First off, Sean and KK are friends.

Report: Sean McVay reached out to Kliff Kingsbury about joining Rams

The Rams are interested in bringing Kliff Kingsbury aboard as an offensive assistant.

theramswire.usatoday.com

Had the Cards not hired KK as HC, I am very confident that KK would still have not ended up with USC and would have been hired by McVay.

Now that KK's offense has actually been proven in the NFL, you really think that Sean isn't going to entice KK (if KK's fired) by giving him the chance to stick it to the Cards twice a season?

I don’t know if kliff would take that role with mcvay verses an o coordinator spot where he would have more personal control.