moklerman
Rise from the Ashes III
No, there is no debate that he's the #1 rated QB in the NFC. It's also untrue that he leads Qb's in turnovers.
Advice for Kurt Warner
- Thread starter RolleRocks
- Start date
He has 18 turnovers. Who has more?
82CardsGrad
7 x 70
Chris - produce the facts around your "turnover" claim - or stop using it...
Additionally, you don't seem to understand the concept of Throwing More - Without a Shread of a threat from a Running Game - increases the chances for turnovers...
Yet, Kurt does not lead the league in INT's. He leads the NFL in completion %, is second in the NFL in QB rating, is 2nd in the NFL TD's and 2nd in Yards...
The Cards don't fool anyone. They throw the ball more than 70% of the time!!! Name one other top rated QB who deals with that sort of dilemma??? You can't... In fact, while I don't have the time, I would guess that Kurt's numbers are alltime worthy when compared to the shear number of times he is forced to throw the ball as a % of offensive plays... I can't imagine too many other successful QB's ever played in an offense where the pass was such a huge % of the offense, and the running game was ranked last in the NFL!!
C'mon man... get a grip...
And again Warner fans...
High QB rating is to be commended. High yardage is also to be commended.
18 turnovers are not.
All of it are products of the same system. You can not praise one aspect of the system and then use it to excuse another.
High QB rating is to be commended. High yardage is also to be commended.
18 turnovers are not.
All of it are products of the same system. You can not praise one aspect of the system and then use it to excuse another.
82CardsGrad
7 x 70
Did you read my post directly above yours? Or are you simply not willing to understand proper context??
82CardsGrad
7 x 70
Not questioning his number of turnovers... You claim that he "leads the NFL"... I still don't see the supporting facts...
Yet again....
You are praising the system that has us throwing on 70% of the downs for compiling all of his offensive stats, but then using that very system to excuse his mistakes. And yes for whomever asked, 82 is a big Warner fan.
No offense, but some of you amaze me w/ your football acumen. Warner has 12 picks this year, which is less than 1 per game. His picks are at about the same level of most of the other top tier qb's in the league or less.
Now, go & look at the int. figures for some of the greats like Montana, Young, Marino, Favre, etc., etc. Guess what? They all threw int.'s too! And sometimes they were in crucial games & in crucial situations! Montana threw 3 int.'s in the NFC championship game vs. Dallas best known for "the catch" by Dwight Clark. If Clark doesn't make that great catch, Montana goes down as the goat instead of the hero. Montana also had a great BALANCED team on both sides of the ball. Terry Bradshaw threw 3 int.'s vs. the Rams in the SB & still won the MVP!
The point is that I think because Warner really is one of the greatest to play the game, & he plays to a different standard, and some here expect perfection. There has never been a qb that has played to the expectations that some here insist Warner play to. Never! All great qb's have thrown int.'s, sometimes even boneheaded ones. It happens, even to the great ones.
What qb in this league has played better than Warner this year? Every single one of them has had bad games along the way, & most, far more than Warner. That includes future HOF'rs like Manning & Favre. Now, take into consideration that every one of those top tier qb's has had at least a serviceable running game so that defenses couldn't just tee off, unlike Warner, & you start to see just what a special qb this guy is.
Some here just look for any excuse to bash Warner. Mind boggling being he IS the Cardinal qb. Says something about what kind of fans these guys are. Anyway, how about we all have the same standard that all the greats have had & let these guys be human every now & then. Getting cranky over 1 int. in a 35-10 win? Unreal!
BTW, how did Eli & the Giants, defending SB champs, do against that Eagles defense yesterday. Just food for thought. Have a great one guys.
Now, go & look at the int. figures for some of the greats like Montana, Young, Marino, Favre, etc., etc. Guess what? They all threw int.'s too! And sometimes they were in crucial games & in crucial situations! Montana threw 3 int.'s in the NFC championship game vs. Dallas best known for "the catch" by Dwight Clark. If Clark doesn't make that great catch, Montana goes down as the goat instead of the hero. Montana also had a great BALANCED team on both sides of the ball. Terry Bradshaw threw 3 int.'s vs. the Rams in the SB & still won the MVP!
The point is that I think because Warner really is one of the greatest to play the game, & he plays to a different standard, and some here expect perfection. There has never been a qb that has played to the expectations that some here insist Warner play to. Never! All great qb's have thrown int.'s, sometimes even boneheaded ones. It happens, even to the great ones.
What qb in this league has played better than Warner this year? Every single one of them has had bad games along the way, & most, far more than Warner. That includes future HOF'rs like Manning & Favre. Now, take into consideration that every one of those top tier qb's has had at least a serviceable running game so that defenses couldn't just tee off, unlike Warner, & you start to see just what a special qb this guy is.
Some here just look for any excuse to bash Warner. Mind boggling being he IS the Cardinal qb. Says something about what kind of fans these guys are. Anyway, how about we all have the same standard that all the greats have had & let these guys be human every now & then. Getting cranky over 1 int. in a 35-10 win? Unreal!
BTW, how did Eli & the Giants, defending SB champs, do against that Eagles defense yesterday. Just food for thought. Have a great one guys.
82CardsGrad
7 x 70
Chris - take a breather buddy... Read my comments - carefully... You will see that I am NOT AT ALL "praising the system". I am stating FACTS and placing Warner's performance in proper context.
Again, name me one other top-rated QB who performed under conditions even remotely close to what Warner is forced to endure??
And again, go back over time and see if you can produce other QB's who put up the sort of numbers (completion %, low INT totals, Rating) that Warner has this season, while being asked to throw the ball more than 70% of the time??
Get real man...
Spielman
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The Cards are tied for 8th in the league in team turnovers given up with 24. 18 of those are on Warner, 12 picks and 6 fumbles. That's as many or more than 13 teams, which isn't great, obviously. (And 8 of those 13 teams are in the playoff picture, naturally.) I believe he does lead the league in individual turnovers now, though I'm not finding a good list to confirm that.
There are a few contextual things to talk about there, though. Fumble recoveries are a crapshoot, so when you're playing the blame game, it makes more sense to talk about total fumbles than fumbles lost. Warner's fumbled 9 times, and the Cards have gotten only 3 back. That's bad luck more than anything else. Brees has fumbled 6 times and the Saints have gotten 5 of them back. In terms of real blame, though, Warner's culpability compared to Brees should be considered to be more like 3 fumbles with 1.5 expected to be actual turnovers, not 5 turnovers. I'm sure some people will savage me for saying that, but it's true... teams that recover a high percentage of fumbles don't keep it up. It's essentially random.
And of course, Warner's had more opportunities to fumble and throw interceptions than other QBs since he leads the league in attempts. Aaron Rodgers fumbles 8 times in 70 or so fewer attempts, and nobody blinks.
The leading the league in turnovers thing is fact, but context is important.
Fine, I will do what you could easily look up as well.
Warner: 18
O'Sullivan: 17
Favre: 17
Cutler: 16
Roethlisberger: 16
Bulger: 16
Frerotte: 16
Brees: 15
Manning: 13
There you go.
82CardsGrad
7 x 70
Not that it matters to me, but you still didn't prove the claim that Warner "leads the league in turnovers"...
Additionally, not sure what your point was about context? However, your claim that Warner leads the league in pass attempts is fact. And that this dynamic alone offers the potential for more turnovers... The other important fact that you and others continue to shun, is that with the exception of Brees, Warner's pass attempts far exceed all other QB's. Yet, Brees and all of the other top Qb's who are within shouting distance of Warner with respect to pass attempts, all have very viable to very good running attacks to relieve the pressure from the QB...
82CardsGrad
7 x 70
Thank You... particularly for proving my points...
Add Pass Attempts to that list and see what ya get...
Betcha Warner doesn't finish the year leading the league in turnovers.
You again miss the point.
Those conditions that he is "forced to endure" are precisely why his offensive stats are inflated.
But since you insist on such a point of reference
Warren Moon under the run and shoot in Houston. 96.8 QB rating. 4689 yards. 62% completion percentage. 33 TDs to 13 INTs. 584 pass attempts.
It has been done in the past and done without turning the ball over so much.
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yeah, he does. he's got 18.
He also leads the NFL in pass attempts with 505! The next closest is Brees who has two more INT's than does Kurt. Kurt also leads Brees in completion percentage, 68.7% to 65.4%.
Manning's had the same issue this year and only has 12 turnovers. Favre had the same issue the entire first half of last year when the Packers had the league's worst rushing attack through 8 games and favre only had 8 turnovers.
I think it's that fact that Warner's got 8 turnovers in just his last 4 games which is what scares people. He had an out of this world first half of the season (with the same running game or lack thereof) and he's come back to earth quite a bit in the second half.
Spielman
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You do realize that Moon fumbled 18 times that year, right?
Draw Warner's numbers out to equal those 584 pass attempts for Moon, and you've got just under 14 INTs to Moon's 13. And you've got under 11 fumbles to Moon's 18.
I don't think you really bolstered your point very much with that example.
Thank You... particularly for proving my points...
Add Pass Attempts to that list and see what ya get...
Sure:
Drew Brees 503 attempts
Kurt Warner 505
Cutler 489
Peyton 477
Favre 421
Your point is certainly valid with Favre. The others not so much
Outside of Brees (who is a maybe), what other QB in the NFC is better than Warner this year? Can't think of any off the top of my head.
Spielman
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That would be what I was saying. Y'know, context? How I said he had more opportunities to fumble and throw interceptions because of the attempts.
*sigh*
You didn't actually read what I said, did you?
moklerman
Rise from the Ashes III
I misspoke, I thought Brees and Favre had passed Warner this weekend in total turnovers. Warner is still waaaaaaay out in front of all the other QB's by 1. But, like I've tried to point out many times before, total turnovers is very misleading. That would be the same as someone clamoring on about Warner or Brees leading the league in completions. Well, duh. They throw it more than anyone else. That's why completion pct. carries more weight.
There's no such thing as turnover pct., since it's only a select few who like to point to fumbles to show how underwhelming a QB is while everyone else seems to agree that fumbles are going to happen and depend heavily on what type of team the QB is playing for.
Anyway, here is a sampling of non-caretaker QB's "turnover pct."(turnovers divided by pass attempts):
4.7% - Romo
4.2% - Roethlisberger
4.0% - Favre
3.6% - Delhomme
3.5% - Warner
3.4% - Rivers
3.3% - Cutler
3.3% - Orton
3.2% - Rodgers
3.0% - Brees
3.0% - McNabb
2.5% - Manning, P.
2.5% - Manning, E.
Since objectivity is so topical, consider which QB is depended on most for his team's success and which QB has the worst running game and/or worst defense.
There's no such thing as turnover pct., since it's only a select few who like to point to fumbles to show how underwhelming a QB is while everyone else seems to agree that fumbles are going to happen and depend heavily on what type of team the QB is playing for.
Anyway, here is a sampling of non-caretaker QB's "turnover pct."(turnovers divided by pass attempts):
4.7% - Romo
4.2% - Roethlisberger
4.0% - Favre
3.6% - Delhomme
3.5% - Warner
3.4% - Rivers
3.3% - Cutler
3.3% - Orton
3.2% - Rodgers
3.0% - Brees
3.0% - McNabb
2.5% - Manning, P.
2.5% - Manning, E.
Since objectivity is so topical, consider which QB is depended on most for his team's success and which QB has the worst running game and/or worst defense.
Rats
Somanyfreaks,SofewCircus'
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Cheese, the only ones that are scared by Warner are the Leinart fans and the ones that wanted him under center from the get go. Warner haters are always going to be there to because of his religous mantra. Not some perceived Turnover problem that every starting QB in the league deals with. Why aren't we talking about the sacks Kurt has taken. Oh wait...he hasn't taken many. Most Cards fans are celebrating the Division Championship that Kurt Warners MVP type season has brought us. I think it is time to give up the hate and get on the bandwagon.
He had 4 fumbles lost the entire year.
82CardsGrad
7 x 70
I see... so you simply feel that any other QB (Leinart perhaps?) could be inserted into the circus-like system and put up Warner's numbers?? OK...
Yes, it has been done before...albeit in extreme rare cases... Moon is in the HoF by the way...
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