Advice for Kurt Warner

Spielman

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But you make my point for me. In the last 4 games he has had 8 T.O's Since the SF game he has been regressing. To the point where he didn't even throw up the ridiculous numbers I expected him to against a piss poor ST Louis team.

It's worth pointing out that he had more than 200 yards before the half and they dialed the offense back after the Dockett TD. It was pretty obvious they weren't going to be very aggressive from that point on.
 

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It's worth pointing out that he had more than 200 yards before the half and they dialed the offense back after the Dockett TD. It was pretty obvious they weren't going to be very aggressive from that point on.

Also, JJ dropped a perfectly thrown pass that would have gone for at least 25 yards... And Breaston forgot he was playing in the NFL and not college, and got only one foot in on that corner TD pass that was about a 30 yarder... ;)
 

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I like Tom Brady for one.

Peyton Manning seems to be pretty consistent in protecting the ball.

I love what Chad Pennington has done this year.

Aaron Rodgers takes care of the ball pretty well.

Ben gets too loose with the ball for my liking but he is still young.

Bottom line is when you turnover the ball you lose.

Many HOF QB's have made boneheaded decisions before.

Not many of them have led the league in T.O's as rookies let alone as 12 year vets.

The difference is not making boneheaded decisions. That happens. It's how OFTEN you do them. That's what the point is.

Manning has 12 int.'s this year, same as Warner. Rogers has 11. Most of those, boneheaded decisions. Pennington has 6, far fewer, but then again he plays in a far more conservative offense & has less than half the td's Warner does. Pennington & great qb are rarely used in the same sentence.

Would you complain if Dan Marino was our qb in his prime? Danny had several years of over 20 int.'s & was usually in the high teens other than that. I'm convinced some of you would have been complaining about him too!

You say "Bottom line is when you turnover the ball you lose." Well that can be true. It depends on what kind of team you have. Look at Warner's numbers when he was w/ the GSOT. They didn't lose to much, & he had lot's of t.o.'s. As stated earlier, Montana had 3 int.'s vs. the Cowboys in the NFC championship game & still won. Bradshaw had 3 in the SB & still won! Those are about as big a stage as you get.

The difference, & why they get a pass & Warner doesn't? TEAMS! They had better TEAMS that made you forget about the mistakes. If this team had a defense & special teams like those, most wouldn't even notice Warner's foibles just as they didn't w/ Montana, Bradshaw, Young, etc. Well that's not necessarily true, some would still hate him b/c of his religion which is a shame.

Point is, it's not like Warner has had 6 t.o's every game. He's had 2 bad games this year, & even those were just bad half's of those games. Out of 13 games so far, he has 2 bad ones? We've won the division for the first time in forever, & some want to start a rant about 1 int. in a game we won in a route, where for once he didn't have to carry the team in the 2nd half? I've played & coached for years, thank goodness I never had to deal w/ some I've had to frequent here, at least not on a regular basis.

The final point is that out of the qb's you mentioned, that supposedly take care of the ball better, not one of them is having a better year than Warner. And Warner is 37 years old w/ no running game or stellar defense. As a pragmatist & strategist, I'll give up those occasional boneheaded plays to get the overall performance we've received from Warner this year. I would take him over Pennington, who has half the Int.'s, any day. It's the whole picture I'm interested in, not just a skewed piece of the pie. No one in the league could have taken the beating, physically or fan wise, that Warner has taken & still accomplished what Warner has done this year. As a football man, that means more than the occasional boneheaded play.
 

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What you have to ask yourself is whether you want an aggressive QB or not. Sure, it's never smart for a QB to throw passes into heavy coverage...yet, you are rarely going to score TDs with a tentative QB unless he has a premier running game.

There has to be an allowance for mistakes, because you can't have it both ways.

To Warner's credit he never quits being aggressive...and THIS OFFENSE is THE most aggressive Cardinal offense since the Coryell era...no other Cardinal offense has put up close 30 points a game (last 20 games with Warner starting and a team record in that span of 13-8...and 46, that's right 46, passing TDs).

The best news is the Cardinal coaches, while preaching ball security, have still encouraged Warner to be aggressive.
 

Cheesebeef

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Manning has 12 int.'s this year, same as Warner. Rogers has 11.

Manning also has ZERO fumbles and Rogers has 2, as opposed to Kurt's 6. Protecting the ball isn't just about not throwing picks, no matter how much some of Warner's fans want it to be.

Well that's not necessarily true, some would still hate him b/c of his religion which is a shame.

you know, I actually wrote a response to the other stuff you wrote, but when something as baseless as this gets thrown into the mix I realize you're not worth the time discussing the issue with.
 

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Manning also has ZERO fumbles and Rogers has 2, as opposed to Kurt's 6. Protecting the ball isn't just about not throwing picks, no matter how much some of Warner's fans want it to be.



you know, I actually wrote a response to the other stuff you wrote, but when something as baseless as this gets thrown into the mix I realize you're not worth the time discussing the issue with.

We'll let me ask you this, would you rather have Mannings year, or Roger's year thus far, or Kurt's. Do you really feel that either would have done better w/ all the pressure?

As far as the religion issue is concerned, either you are quite naive, or you're one of them. I would tend to believe the former w/ you.
 

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We'll let me ask you this, would you rather have Mannings year, or Roger's year thus far, or Kurt's. Do you really feel that either would have done better w/ all the pressure?

As far as the religion issue is concerned, either you are quite naive, or you're one of them. I would tend to believe the former w/ you.
This is ridiculous.
 

Russ Smith

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We'll let me ask you this, would you rather have Mannings year, or Roger's year thus far, or Kurt's. Do you really feel that either would have done better w/ all the pressure?

As far as the religion issue is concerned, either you are quite naive, or you're one of them. I would tend to believe the former w/ you.

Who's under more pressure, Rodgers replacing Brett Favre or Kurt? For a 25 year old who'd thrown 59 passes in his career comign into this season he's been pretty impressive. a lot of guys in his position would have been overwhelmed trying to replace a legend, especially with the way Favre's Packer career ended.


The only issue I have with Kurt is the "bad" turnovers, the throws right to the defense, the hold the ball forever then get stripped because the ball isn't tucked to the body. If he limits those he might win the MVP.
 

nashman

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He is going to win the MVP if the cards win 2 of the next 3 imo. It seems to be between him and Brees and not sure they will give it to Brees being that the Saints aren't very good and do nothing but throw the ball.
 

Spielman

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Manning also has ZERO fumbles and Rogers has 2, as opposed to Kurt's 6. Protecting the ball isn't just about not throwing picks, no matter how much some of Warner's fans want it to be.

I honestly don't want to get into this too much, but:

Rodgers has 8 fumbles, 3 of them lost, compared to Warner's 9, 6 of them lost.

In playing the blame game the 8 vs. 9 is actually a better comparison than the 3 vs. 6, because which team recovers a fumble is a crapshoot.
 
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Yeah he does lead the NFL in turnovers when you include his fumbles. Throwing a ton of times for a ton of yards is impressive. It's praise worthy. Leading the NFL in turnovers is not praiseworthy.

There is a middle ground between "Best QB in the NFC" and "Shouldn't start" As long as Warner continues to make dumb turnovers, he is in that midddle ground.
He has 18 turnovers. Who has more?
Fine, I will do what you could easily look up as well.

Warner: 18
O'Sullivan: 17
Favre: 17
Cutler: 16
Roethlisberger: 16
Bulger: 16
Frerotte: 16
Brees: 15
Manning: 13
I am not going to read the entire thread because it is pointless. However I want to clear up a misconception: Warner DOES NOT lead the league in turnovers!

Sanders - I don't know where you got your number but they are wrong.

From NFL.com game logs
Farve: 15 interceptions, 10 fumbles = 25 turnovers; 20 touchdowns
Roethlisberger: 12 interceptions, 9 fumbles = 21 turnovers; 14 touchdowns
Warner: 12 interceptions, 9 fumbles = 21 turnovers; 25 touchdowns
Brees: 14 interceptions, 6 fumbles = 20 turnovers; 26 touchdowns

You may now return to your regularly scheduled endless, pointless QB debate...

(Offstage - Crap reminds me of the Plummer discussions.)
 

Chris_Sanders

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Fine, I will do what you could easily look up as well.

I am not going to read the entire thread because it is pointless. However I want to clear up a misconception: Warner DOES NOT lead the league in turnovers!

Sanders - I don't know where you got your number but they are wrong.

From NFL.com game logs
Farve: 15 interceptions, 10 fumbles = 25 turnovers; 20 touchdowns
Roethlisberger: 12 interceptions, 9 fumbles = 21 turnovers; 14 touchdowns
Warner: 12 interceptions, 9 fumbles = 21 turnovers; 25 touchdowns
Brees: 14 interceptions, 6 fumbles = 20 turnovers; 26 touchdowns

You may now return to your regularly scheduled endless, pointless QB debate...

(Offstage - Crap reminds me of the Plummer discussions.)


Fumbles lost my friend....fumbles lost. That is what a turnover is.

Oh and I got the fumbles lost from your same source.

So...again....I am right. :self:
 

Chris_Sanders

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So Favre and Big Ben are better fumblers than Warner?? LMAO!!

:D

They don't operate almost exclusively out of the shotgun. Harder to recover your fumbles when you are 3 yards further back than the other QBs. That's a scheme issue as much as a Warner issue.

Edit: Favre has been sacked 26 times to Kurt's 20 and Roeth a whopping 36 times. Our O-line is underrated as pass protectors. Of course always being in the shotgun helps as well.
 
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Cards232

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Who's under more pressure, Rodgers replacing Brett Favre or Kurt? For a 25 year old who'd thrown 59 passes in his career comign into this season he's been pretty impressive. a lot of guys in his position would have been overwhelmed trying to replace a legend, especially with the way Favre's Packer career ended.


The only issue I have with Kurt is the "bad" turnovers, the throws right to the defense, the hold the ball forever then get stripped because the ball isn't tucked to the body. If he limits those he might win the MVP.

You've completely missed the point my friend. The pressure I was referring to was the pressure coming from defenses. I would dare say Kurt has taken far more hits. He has thrown w/ defenses converging on him at the last second far more than his competitors. Defenses probably respect the Packers run & the possibility that they will run far more than what Warner has to deal with. Part of the reason Kurt has the ball stripped is b/c he waits till the last second. He has made FAR many more plays than he has given up by doing so. That's part of what makes him so unique.

We would have gone 3 & out, & lost many more games w/o that mindset & his abilities. It's not like Kurt has a lot of time back there as it is. As far as throwing right to the defense is concerned, did you ever see the qb's afore mentioned do likewise? I did. And far more than once! It happens, even to the great ones. Montana did it 3 times as much as Warner in that championship game which was a far bigger game overall. As I said before, it's not like Kurt is doing that 5-10 times a game & losing us games solely b/c of that. He makes far many more great plays than he does bad ones. That's a big reason why we've won the division. Period.

Lastly, & it bears mentioning, has anyone other than me wondered how Kurt's arm hasn't fallen off yet? Throwing that many times per game at that level, at 37!? Qb is an extremely cerebral position. To have that kind of focus that many times a game, & still be able to overcome the exhaustion & pain he must feel during the game is unreal to me. And he's done it for 13 games w/ several left to go. He's a freak of nature!
 
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Fumbles lost my friend....fumbles lost. That is what a turnover is.

Oh and I got the fumbles lost from your same source.

So...again....I am right. :self:
LOL! I'm stupid! :sad:

But I will add, when judging INDIVIDUAL performance fumbles is more important than fumbles lost, unless you count how many were INDIVIDUALLY recovered.
just trying to save a little dignity here... :cool:
 
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nashman

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Advise to Kurt Warner should simply be keep doing what you have been as your the best QB this team has seen in Arizona! This guy just won the division for us and people still want to nitpick. If you think this team would be as good if Warner wasn't the QB all season, I would strongly disagree. Go Kurt take us all the way if you can!
 

82CardsGrad

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They don't operate almost exclusively out of the shotgun. Harder to recover your fumbles when you are 3 yards further back than the other QBs. That's a scheme issue as much as a Warner issue.

Huh? Are you saying that because Kurt is always in Shotgun and "3 yards deeper" than Favre and Ben, that it's harder for him to recover his own fumble??
Not sure if that makes sense?? :confused: And can you really determine the recoverability of a fumble?? Seems to me that there are a zillion dynamics in play that can influence the recovery of a fumble... The more accurate, and pure figure is to simply look at how many times someone has coughed up the ball... What happens once the ball is coughed up is purely random.

Edit: Favre has been sacked 26 times to Kurt's 20 and Roeth a whopping 36 times. Our O-line is underrated as pass protectors. Of course always being in the shotgun helps as well.

Our o-line has done a very admirable job in pass protection. Particularly when you consider that the defense knows we are passing and can pin their ears back on virtually every play, with little worry about a run...
That said, Kurt has done a great job at making pre-snap calls and getting rid of the ball very quickly... He also has shown an ability to move inside and out of the pocket - more than I have ever seen him do prior to this season.
 
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Mitch

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Fine, I will do what you could easily look up as well.

I am not going to read the entire thread because it is pointless. However I want to clear up a misconception: Warner DOES NOT lead the league in turnovers!

Sanders - I don't know where you got your number but they are wrong.

From NFL.com game logs
Farve: 15 interceptions, 10 fumbles = 25 turnovers; 20 touchdowns
Roethlisberger: 12 interceptions, 9 fumbles = 21 turnovers; 14 touchdowns
Warner: 12 interceptions, 9 fumbles = 21 turnovers; 25 touchdowns
Brees: 14 interceptions, 6 fumbles = 20 turnovers; 26 touchdowns

You may now return to your regularly scheduled endless, pointless QB debate...

(Offstage - Crap reminds me of the Plummer discussions.)

Interesting numbers, CardLogic, thanks, man. Interesting too that all 4 of these QBs should be heading to Honolulu this year, without question.
 

Evil Ash

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Advise to Kurt Warner should simply be keep doing what you have been as your the best QB this team has seen in Arizona! This guy just won the division for us and people still want to nitpick. If you think this team would be as good if Warner wasn't the QB all season, I would strongly disagree. Go Kurt take us all the way if you can!

Its not nit picking. Its warranted criticism. He needs to get off of this slump that he has been on lately or else we have no shot in the playoffs.

He was a damn good QB for the first 8 games of the season (with the exception of the Jets game of course). However lately he has regressed.

I'm worried about how the TEAM does the rest of the way. I want the TEAM to improve and be ready for a run in the playoffs. To do that we need to have all of our players to be playing at the top of their game. Half-assed isn't going to cut it anymore. The Rams, Seahawks, 9ers or any other bad team aren't going to be playing in the playoffs. Its only good teams from here on out and any of the TEAM's mistakes will be that much more amplified.

Turnovers are one of the biggest factors in whether a team wins or loses. Lately Warner is turning the ball over ALOT and he needs to cut thoat down if this team has any hope of a deep playoff run.

Warner fans need to stop taking everything so damn personal. Most of us are criticising other aspects of this team that are failing also. The reason we do this is we know that the team can do better.

While Warner winning the MVP would be nice, it isn't the top priority for me as a fan. Winning the Superbowl is.
 

IAWarnerFan

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Its not nit picking. Its warranted criticism. He needs to get off of this slump that he has been on lately or else we have no shot in the playoffs.

He was a damn good QB for the first 8 games of the season (with the exception of the Jets game of course). However lately he has regressed.

I'm worried about how the TEAM does the rest of the way. I want the TEAM to improve and be ready for a run in the playoffs. To do that we need to have all of our players to be playing at the top of their game. Half-assed isn't going to cut it anymore. The Rams, Seahawks, 9ers or any other bad team aren't going to be playing in the playoffs. Its only good teams from here on out and any of the TEAM's mistakes will be that much more amplified.

Turnovers are one of the biggest factors in whether a team wins or loses. Lately Warner is turning the ball over ALOT and he needs to cut thoat down if this team has any hope of a deep playoff run.

Warner fans need to stop taking everything so damn personal. Most of us are criticising other aspects of this team that are failing also. The reason we do this is we know that the team can do better.

While Warner winning the MVP would be nice, it isn't the top priority for me as a fan. Winning the Superbowl is.

Do you think maybe those two things go together?
 

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Interesting numbers, CardLogic, thanks, man. Interesting too that all 4 of these QBs should be heading to Honolulu this year, without question.

If Kurt Warner was a) as young as Ben or Brees or as b) as durable as Favre or c) as consistent as those guys have been for the majority of their entire careers you'd really a no-brainer as far as far as re-signing him. Problem is he's not young, he's not an iron-man like Favre is, and he hasn't been consistent in his entire career. Hell, he hasn't even been consistent THIS SEASON. Great first half of the year, so-so second half. that's why his continued play next year and beyond as QB of the team is murky IMO.
 

82CardsGrad

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Its not nit picking. Its warranted criticism. He needs to get off of this slump that he has been on lately or else we have no shot in the playoffs.

"Slump"?? He had a bad game in Philly. Before that, he went 32 of 52, for 351 yards with a TD and an INT against the Giants. Before that he went 32 of 44, for 395 yards with a TD and an INT against the Hawks. And before that he went nuts against the 9ers, going 32 of 42, for 328 yards, 3 TD's and no INT's. Yesterday, he went 24 of 33, for 280 yards with a TD and an INT...

Where's the slump??
 
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