Alex Len...LET HIM GO!

[AzStevenCal]

I wouldn't care if Len was a backup or something but some fool team will pay him starter money. Plus too I just read McD say that he's possibly looking for two impact players to sign. Well with Brandon Knight on the books and McD wanting a couple big name players I don't know if they're going to be throwing money at Len too.

Except he's a horrible backup. He plays much better when he's starting or at least playing starter minutes (except for a short stretch at the start of the season). And yes, someone will give him good money and for good reason. Plus we have so much money to spend it's ridiculous.

 

[BC867]

Except he's a horrible backup. He plays much better when he's starting or at least playing starter minutes (except for a short stretch at the start of the season).

I understand the points you've made about Len. But making him a starter because he has proven to be a horrible backup (in your words) doesn't sound like a Suns step to success.

Len had the chance to prove himself against bench players (2nd tier players) and he didn't with his inconsistency. So let's make him a starter? I don't see it as motivational or effective. It reminds me of the old joke -- He's too drunk to sing. Let him drive the bus.

With all respect, it sort of perpetuates the Suns seven year standard of overall mediocrity.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I understand the points you've made about Len. But making him a starter because he has proven to be a horrible backup (in your words) doesn't sound like a Suns step to success.

Len had the chance to prove himself against bench players (2nd tier players) and he didn't with his inconsistency. So let's make him a starter? I don't see it as motivational or effective. It reminds me of the old joke -- He's too drunk to sing. Let him drive the bus.

With all respect, it sort of perpetuates the Suns seven year standard of overall mediocrity.

He actually played much more consistently as a starter.

 

[pokerface]

He actually played much more consistently as a starter.

Not consistent enough to beat out Chandler. Hence the backup duties.

 

[pokerface]

After all star weekend when games resume this little debate on Len should get resolved quickly. Play Len big minutes..I don't mind that all because he will get exposed (and save us $) and help us tank. But if he's able to step up (he should want to step up in a contract year) then we know we can move forward with him. Either way is good news for me and every suns fan.

If they don't play Len now what are we to infer from it? No faith in his game or trying to keep his value down? Another debate is around the corner I suspect.

 

[Carolinacacti]

The Suns not having a center was a common complaint before the Suns drafted Len and signed Chandler as you note. My, how time passes.

I think the Suns intend to match Len in free agency but the Nuggets are wanting to trade Jusuf Nurkic. Also Willie Cauley-Stein might be included in a trade with the Kings. I'm sure there are many more. I think the main thing the Suns want from a center is defense and rebounding.

Also if the Suns are patient, Bender might prove to be a skilled high post center with the whole package, offense, defense and hopefully rebounding.

This, Bender will be like Frank Kamisky. I see him playing center next year.

 

[Mainstreet]

This, Bender will be like Frank Kamisky. I see him playing center next year.

I hope Bender is more mobile than Frank Kaminisky but I can see him possibly being a high post center down the road. I'm not sure how long it will take for him to develop.

 

[Finito]

This, Bender will be like Frank Kamisky. I see him playing center next year.

His upside is way higher than big Frank.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I understand the points you've made about Len. But making him a starter because he has proven to be a horrible backup (in your words) doesn't sound like a Suns step to success.

Len had the chance to prove himself against bench players (2nd tier players) and he didn't with his inconsistency. So let's make him a starter? I don't see it as motivational or effective. It reminds me of the old joke -- He's too drunk to sing. Let him drive the bus.

With all respect, it sort of perpetuates the Suns seven year standard of overall mediocrity.

That's not exactly my point. Alex was horrible in preseason, the worst we've seen from him and probably led to the team and agent not reaching an extension. I don't think there was anyone left in his corner on this board, or maybe anywhere. He began the season playing just as poorly but after game 7 he was moved into the starting lineup.

He struggled in his first start but from his second start forward, he began playing very well for the next 10 or 12 games with Chandler still out. When Tyson returned, Len continued to start and still played okay until Chandler had a great game as Len's backup. They then switched positions and Len's performance dropped almost immediately as the backup. He's been very up and down since then, mostly because as a backup he seems prone to pick up early fouls and his minutes have been very inconsistent as a result.

So, he's played better as a starter, he gets more minutes as a starter and we're about to have to decide on his future with our team as a starter. I maintain we need to start him the second part of this season to help us come to a decision about him (us, front office, not us, you and me). Chandler, despite some gaudy rebound numbers, really hasn't played all that well this season.

I don't use anything but the most basic of stats but it's my understanding that Len has much better advanced stats, especially rim protection. Regardless, the eye test shows that Tyson simply cannot defend the paint anymore and he can only rebound his immediate position. He can no longer get to those rebounds that don't come almost directly to him.

And Tyson gets worse as his minutes go up. Len is the opposite, his play gets better as his minutes increase. So, Chandler, to get the best from him on a per minute basis, needs to have his time limited. And Len, to get the most of him on a per minute basis, needs to be the regular starter. Seems like an easy call to me, trade Tyson or move him behind Len.

 

[BC867]

But if he's able to step up (he should want to step up in a contract year) then we know we can move forward with him. Either way is good news for me and every suns fan.

If he steps up in a contract year then we know we can move forward with him? That correlation concludes that Len will have a good season every time he has a contract year. And he's not even doing that.

Which is why I believe that Alex Len hasn't earned consideration as our Center of the future. Any more than Robin Lopez did. I would rather the Suns look elsewhere. Re-signing Len would probably preclude that.

 

[Phrazbit]

Yes, Len has played better as a starter but even improved starting Len hasn't been a good player. If you were getting 10 and 8 with mediocre defense, bad offense and a foul every 5 minutes of playing time from your starting center... that is someone you want to replace, not extend.

The other major issue I have with Len is I don't think his game is conducive to the modern NBA. He is a dinosaur. Plodding centers who are virtually useless on offense are basically absent among the good teams. Len can't help defend away from the rim and he cannot score away from the rim and I don't see how either of those aspects of his game will ever change and unless the league reverts back to a slower pace then I don't think you'll see Len or players like him as significant contributors on decent teams.

I'm fine with giving Len a lot of PT after the all-star game but he'd have to improve dramatically for me to want the Suns to give a squirt about retaining him. As it stands he is a below replacement level player.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Yes, Len has played better as a starter but even improved starting Len hasn't been a good player. If you were getting 10 and 8 with mediocre defense, bad offense and a foul every 5 minutes of playing time from your starting center... that is someone you want to replace, not extend.

The other major issue I have with Len is I don't think his game is conducive to the modern NBA. He is a dinosaur. Plodding centers who are virtually useless on offense are basically absent among the good teams. Len can't help defend away from the rim and he cannot score away from the rim and I don't see how either of those aspects of his game will ever change and unless the league reverts back to a slower pace then I don't think you'll see Len or players like him as significant contributors on decent teams.

I'm fine with giving Len a lot of PT after the all-star game but he'd have to improve dramatically for me to want the Suns to give a squirt about retaining him. As it stands he is a below replacement level player.

He's less a plodder than most of the "plodders" you're referencing, his occasional lack of speed and quickness is more a lack of understanding than physical ability. Unfortunately, I'm not at all confident this problem will ever go away. But he's also a better rim protector than your typical plodder.

He was fairly efficient during that stretch as a starter and he played pretty good defense. We were lousy at that time because of Booker's turf toe and Bledsoe was still struggling, but Len was one of our strengths during that period. His per 36 numbers of 14 and 12 with a couple of blocks is fine for someone that provides good rim protection. Getting him anywhere close to 36 minutes is the challenge but that won't happen if we keep benching him every time he picks up a couple of quick ones.

But, in the end, I'm not too far off from your position other than I think it will take just a minor improvement to make him worth keeping. If he can manage his fouls to the point where we can typically get at least 28 minutes from him, I absolutely think he's our big man of the future. Not a star, we don't have a Jokic in the making but not a Vucevic either. There's a place for him still in today's NBA and even with all his missteps this season, he's putting up basically replacement player level numbers and still has untapped ability.

 

[pokerface]

If he steps up in a contract year then we know we can move forward with him? That correlation concludes that Len will have a good season every time he has a contract year. And he's not even doing that.

Which is why I believe that Alex Len hasn't earned consideration as our Center of the future. Any more than Robin Lopez did. I would rather the Suns look elsewhere. Re-signing Len would probably preclude that.

I dunno...Fans have short memories meaning if a player gets hot it can erase a lot of doubts. Half a season is still a lot of time for Len to save his career in Phoenix. He has shown flashes and some capabilities so I'm not going to declare him dead but time is running out. He's going to have to really show his stuff now.

 

[sunsfan88]

He's less a plodder than most of the "plodders" you're referencing, his occasional lack of speed and quickness is more a lack of understanding than physical ability. Unfortunately, I'm not at all confident this problem will ever go away. But he's also a better rim protector than your typical plodder.

Agreed here and I don't think centers who "can't score away from rim are absent from good teams" either.

Cavs, Wizards, Raptors, Hawks, Clippers, Jazz and Thunder are all pretty good teams and for most part, guys like Thompson, Gortat, Valanciunas, Howard, Jordan, Gobert and Adams don't have much of an offensive game away from the rim.

 

[slinslin]

Yes, Len has played better as a starter but even improved starting Len hasn't been a good player. If you were getting 10 and 8 with mediocre defense, bad offense and a foul every 5 minutes of playing time from your starting center... that is someone you want to replace, not extend.

The other major issue I have with Len is I don't think his game is conducive to the modern NBA. He is a dinosaur. Plodding centers who are virtually useless on offense are basically absent among the good teams. Len can't help defend away from the rim and he cannot score away from the rim and I don't see how either of those aspects of his game will ever change and unless the league reverts back to a slower pace then I don't think you'll see Len or players like him as significant contributors on decent teams.

I'm fine with giving Len a lot of PT after the all-star game but he'd have to improve dramatically for me to want the Suns to give a squirt about retaining him. As it stands he is a below replacement level player.

That is ridiculous.

1. Len is averaging 14/12 and more than 2 blocks per 36 so saying he gives you 10/8 is not really telling us anything. If your center gives you 10/8 in 24mpg you are happy with that.

2. His defense is not mediocre. Statistically he is one of the better defenders at the center position in the league and one of the best rim protectors.

Lens rebounding stats have gone up every season. His PER is the highest it has been and with the exception of last year improved every season. His freethrow % has gone up every year.

Also Len is not a below replacement level player. His VORP is exactly 0. And by that measure we would have to trade anyone except Bledsoe, Tucker, Chandler, Dudley and Warren.


Len is 23. You don't let a player with a lot of upside go.

Robin Lopez was much worse and letting him go for nothing was not a good move either.

 

[pokerface]

That is ridiculous.

1. Len is averaging 14/12 and more than 2 blocks per 36 so saying he gives you 10/8 is not really telling us anything. If your center gives you 10/8 in 24mpg you are happy with that.

2. His defense is not mediocre. Statistically he is one of the better defenders at the center position in the league and one of the best rim protectors.

Lens rebounding stats have gone up every season. His PER is the highest it has been and with the exception of last year improved every season. His freethrow % has gone up every year.

Also Len is not a below replacement level player. His VORP is exactly 0. And by that measure we would have to trade anyone except Bledsoe, Tucker, Chandler, Dudley and Warren.


Len is 23. You don't let a player with a lot of upside go.

Robin Lopez was much worse and letting him go for nothing was not a good move either.

Hey slin, since you are so fond of "per 36" ...What's his foul rate per 36? Isn't that why he isn't a starter? And why is his +/- not good? The only one with a worse +/- on the team is Brandon Knight.

Here we go again...Alex is 23...The main selling point. "He could get better" yeah...And he could stay the same. According to the numbers you spew that's good enough but for most fans it is not. If Alex stays at status quo is that good enough for anyone?? If not why sign him to a long contract...Oh yeah, because he's 23...The fallback position!

Alex progresses....Then regresses...then progresses...Then does something stupid. His progression is snail like...Slow and barely noticeable. I wonder if summer league is going to kick his butt again...I wonder.

 

[slinslin]

Alex Len has the 8th best +/- on the team.

And he commits 5.6 fouls per 36, so yeah he could play 36mpg.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/2017.html

 

[hsandhu]

The fact suns aren't trading len points to them thinking they'll resign him.

Philly knew they weren't going to match an offer to noel, so,they just traded him.

 

[pokerface]

Alex Len has the 8th best +/- on the team.

And he commits 5.6 fouls per 36, so yeah he could play 36mpg.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/2017.html

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/phoenix-suns-the-alex-len-dilemma-021617


"Even his Per 36 Minutes numbers are encouraging, though his propensity for foul trouble remains a cause for alarm:

• Per 36 Minutes: 13.8 points, 11.7 rebounds, 2.3 blocks, 5.6 fouls

The problem is, as is the case with any stats for a rarely used player on a losing team, the numbers get noisy when you factor in his -4.9 plus/minus for the year, his -7.9 plus/minus in 11 games with the starters and his -9.1 plus/minus per 36 minutes.

Per NBA.com, his on-court net rating of -11.2 is second-worst on the roster behind only Brandon Knight, his defensive rating of 109.7 is fifth-worst and his offensive rating of 98.5 is dead last. That doesn’t help his case for being a neglected youngster on the rise."

 

[slinslin]

you are quoting net rating

we can end this discussion here since you dont know what you are talking about

 

[pokerface]

you are quoting net rating

we can end this discussion here since you dont know what you are talking about

I'm just quoting the article.. Take it up with him!

 

[Phrazbit]

5.6 fouls per 36 means he cannot play 36 minutes. The limit is 5, exceed that and you're gone. More often than not he'd be out before he got to 36.

I'm not saying he is useless, but he isn't good, I don't think he has the tools to become good, especially on offense where he kills us when he is on the court.

 

[Chaplin]

So what? You don't play a guy like Alex Len 36 minutes anyway. If you do, that means he's on a superstar level.

 

[slinslin]

5.6 fouls per 36 means he cannot play 36 minutes. The limit is 5, exceed that and you're gone. More often than not he'd be out before he got to 36.

I'm not saying he is useless, but he isn't good, I don't think he has the tools to become good, especially on offense where he kills us when he is on the court.

You foul out at 6, he fouls less than 6 times per 36 so yes he could play 36 minutes.

 

[Phrazbit]

You foul out at 6, he fouls less than 6 times per 36 so yes he could play 36 minutes.

Come on, you're good with stats, think about it for a second. You cannot exceed 5 fouls and stay in the game, he averages 5.6, that means on average he would foul out more than half of his games were he to keep the same foul pace and play 36 minutes.