Alex Len

[SirStefan32]

Excuse me, but what possibly could be your proof of that? Sure, he could play Kravtsov with Plumlee, but why would he, whether he plays small or not? You yourself even say he's useless.

We don't have the players to play big, so right now there is just about zero proof that he won't when we have bigs available. I'd like to learn more about this "feeling". Is it because he goes small a lot now? Well guess what, he doesn't have a choice with this roster.

The guy played with Karl Malone, he understands the value of a big man.

I didn't realize I needed "proof" when talking about having a feeling that something is the case. "I have a feeling that he is a small-ball coach..." is quite different from "He is clearly a small-ball coach." I am not really sure how an intelligent young man like you doesn't see the difference between two statements.

I fully understand that he doesn't have a big man to play alongside Plumlee- I even said so in my post. Couple of things that bother me (and lead me to believe he will be a small-ball coach) include ignoring Plumlee to play the Morris Twins and Frye together, Going with 3 guards+ Morris twins late in a couple of games, etc. When you have a guy averaging roughly 10 and 9 while anchoring your defense, you give him more than 28 minutes per game. You don't sit him so you can play 3 over-sized shooting guards up front.

 

[SirStefan32]

More generally, the Suns have gone from being a pretty good defensive team at the start of the season to a lousy one: 10 out of their last 13 opponents have scored 100+, and the next two after that scored 99 and 97. So there is cause for concern that, no matter what Hornacek's preference might be, the Suns appear to be building another run-and-gun team that will struggle to adapt in the postseason, should they be fortunate enough to get there.

While I agree, and am somewhat disappointed that we are seeing just another run and gun team that historically has problems in the postseason, there is one difference between this team and D'Antoni teams- this team has shown the ability to play good D. I've seen several quarters this year when they really tightened their D.

They still can't score worth crap in the half court if their threes are not falling, but I am hoping that the Suns can trade for someone who can actually score in half court.

 

[Catlover]

I didn't realize I needed "proof" when talking about having a feeling that something is the case. "I have a feeling that he is a small-ball coach..." is quite different from "He is clearly a small-ball coach." I am not really sure how an intelligent young man like you doesn't see the difference between two statements.

I fully understand that he doesn't have a big man to play alongside Plumlee- I even said so in my post. Couple of things that bother me (and lead me to believe he will be a small-ball coach) include ignoring Plumlee to play the Morris Twins and Frye together, Going with 3 guards+ Morris twins late in a couple of games, etc. When you have a guy averaging roughly 10 and 9 while anchoring your defense, you give him more than 28 minutes per game. You don't sit him so you can play 3 over-sized shooting guards up front.

Those 28 minutes per game are good for fourth most on this team and you're talking about a guy that is a horrible free throw shooter and played a grand total of 55 minutes last season. There is every reason to believe that the guy sitting on that bench in a suit and tie knows what he's doing. We all second guess but you're really reaching here.

 

[SirStefan32]

Those 28 minutes per game are good for fourth most on this team and you're talking about a guy that is a horrible free throw shooter and played a grand total of 55 minutes last season. There is every reason to believe that the guy sitting on that bench in a suit and tie knows what he's doing. We all second guess but you're really reaching here.

Well, why the hell post on a message board then? If the coach knows what he is doing and we shouldn't express out opinions, why the hell do we have this board? That's why I've been on this board (and previous boards before this one) for 12 or 13 years now- a bunch of people express their opinions, provide their own analysis, come up with ideas, we generate good discussion, and it's fun in addition to being kind of educational.

I am supposed to be impressed that Plumlee's minutes are 4th highest on the team? He is THE ONLY big man we have. 4th highest is not good enough. If Fry or one of the Morris twins were a real PF/ C, then Plumlee's minutes would be fine, but as it is, Plumlee's 28 minutes per game mean that the Suns are playing without a Center and a real PF for 20 minutes per game.

 

[BC867]

Plumlee's 28 minutes per game mean that the Suns are playing without a Center and a real PF for 20 minutes per game.

The original plan was that Len/Plumlee or Plumlee/Len would be our 45-48 minute per game Centers.

No one has been more outspoken about the Suns "finesse" philosophy going back to John MacLeod over 40 years ago.

So if Jeff were just another small-ball Suns coach, I would be pissed.

But I'm not ready to jump to that conclusion while there is only one healthy real Center on the roster.

 

[Catlover]

Well, why the hell post on a message board then? If the coach knows what he is doing and we shouldn't express out opinions, why the hell do we have this board? That's why I've been on this board (and previous boards before this one) for 12 or 13 years now- a bunch of people express their opinions, provide their own analysis, come up with ideas, we generate good discussion, and it's fun in addition to being kind of educational.

I am supposed to be impressed that Plumlee's minutes are 4th highest on the team? He is THE ONLY big man we have. 4th highest is not good enough. If Fry or one of the Morris twins were a real PF/ C, then Plumlee's minutes would be fine, but as it is, Plumlee's 28 minutes per game mean that the Suns are playing without a Center and a real PF for 20 minutes per game.

Feel free to show me where I said anything like that. And why the rage? All I did was try to show you a few reasons why it might be best to give the coach the benefit of the doubt on this one. He isn't used to playing these kind of minutes and he is a horrible free throw shooter and this is a deep team and we are winning. Those are all good reasons for him being 4th in minutes played. I'll give you one more reason. Miles and the twins have been inconsistent. He's been using playing time to try and keep each of them focused. When they drift, he sits them.

 

[Chaplin]

I didn't realize I needed "proof" when talking about having a feeling that something is the case. "I have a feeling that he is a small-ball coach..." is quite different from "He is clearly a small-ball coach." I am not really sure how an intelligent young man like you doesn't see the difference between two statements.

I fully understand that he doesn't have a big man to play alongside Plumlee- I even said so in my post. Couple of things that bother me (and lead me to believe he will be a small-ball coach) include ignoring Plumlee to play the Morris Twins and Frye together, Going with 3 guards+ Morris twins late in a couple of games, etc. When you have a guy averaging roughly 10 and 9 while anchoring your defense, you give him more than 28 minutes per game. You don't sit him so you can play 3 over-sized shooting guards up front.

You said you have a feeling, I was trying to figure out where that feeling came from. You haven't really explained that very well.

Plumlee still can't shoot free throws and the guy hasn't proven to be able to handle over 30 minutes per game. Those reasons are huge ones in whether he plays late in the game.

 

[sunsfan88]

I've seen enough of Kravtsov to tell you he is the very definition of a stiff. He is 100% useless.

Having said that, I also have a feeling Hornacek is another Suns' coach who loves small ball. I don't see Len and Plumlee playing together.
I hope I am wrong, but what I've seen so far is just another coach with an illogical infatuation with small ball.

Small isn't necessarily illogical. The Miami Heat just won a title with Shane Battier at PF and Chris Bosh at C.

Just like anything else, if you know how to use it properly, then it will work and can be successful.

Its not like Hornacek is out there playing Josh Childress at C

 

[Phrazbit]

For the most part I dont think we've been a small ball team. Yeah, we've got two point guards, but we've been playing a 6'8" guy in Green at SG, Marcus Morris is a 6'9" SF, Frye 6'11, Plumlee 7'0, Markieff, 6'11 have played the vast majority of our front court minutes...

It hardly seems like small ball to me. Even when PJ Tucker is in at PF its actually for defensive purposes, not for the offensive matchup problems "small ball" aims to create.

 

[Mainstreet]

For the most part I dont think we've been a small ball team. Yeah, we've got two point guards, but we've been playing a 6'8" guy in Green at SG, Marcus Morris is a 6'9" SF, Frye 6'11, Plumlee 7'0, Markieff, 6'11 have played the vast majority of our front court minutes...

It hardly seems like small ball to me. Even when PJ Tucker is in at PF its actually for defensive purposes, not for the offensive matchup problems "small ball" aims to create.

I think this is an accurate assessment.

The Suns have more finesse bigs so Hornacek likes to run the team to maximize their effectiveness. Also the Suns would ignore their strength if they did not play Dragic and Bledsoe together. It might be interesting to see how the Suns evolve if Len develops an inside game or they draft a legitimate low post threat who can command the ball. However, I think Hornacek wants to have players that can run and apply defensive pressure. If a big player fits this mode, I think the Suns will want him.

 

[SirStefan32]

For the most part I dont think we've been a small ball team. Yeah, we've got two point guards, but we've been playing a 6'8" guy in Green at SG, Marcus Morris is a 6'9" SF, Frye 6'11, Plumlee 7'0, Markieff, 6'11 have played the vast majority of our front court minutes...

It hardly seems like small ball to me. Even when PJ Tucker is in at PF its actually for defensive purposes, not for the offensive matchup problems "small ball" aims to create.

There is no way Markieff Morris is 6'11, or that Marcus is 6'9, but that's not the point. Being seven feet tall does not make one a legitimate big man. Frye, Marcus, and Markieff are all shooting guards who just happen to be taller than an average shooting guard. Big men fight for position and rebounds- bang down low on both ends of the court, they take the ball inside, they work in the low post, they contest shots, provide help defense, etc.
Please tell me again how Channing Frye is a legitimate Center? He stands at the three point line and shoots every time he touches the ball- no different than Gerald Green. The fact that he is 6'10 doesn't make him a Center. It makes him a shooting guard that happens to be 6'10.

 

[Chaplin]

There is no way Markieff Morris is 6'11, or that Marcus is 6'9, but that's not the point. Being seven feet tall does not make one a legitimate big man. Frye, Marcus, and Markieff are all shooting guards who just happen to be taller than an average shooting guard. Big men fight for position and rebounds- bang down low on both ends of the court, they take the ball inside, they work in the low post, they contest shots, provide help defense, etc.
Please tell me again how Channing Frye is a legitimate Center? He stands at the three point line and shoots every time he touches the ball- no different than Gerald Green. The fact that he is 6'10 doesn't make him a Center. It makes him a shooting guard that happens to be 6'10.

And yet having all of those guys are not the fault of Jeff Hornacek. A good coach makes do with what he's got--I'm not sure how you equate that to having a small ball philosophy. You still haven't provided any evidence of why you think Hornacek is a small ball coach.

 

[elindholm]

Frye, Marcus, and Markieff are all shooting guards who just happen to be taller than an average shooting guard. Big men fight for position and rebounds- bang down low on both ends of the court, they take the ball inside, they work in the low post, they contest shots, provide help defense, etc.

That's something of an exaggeration. Although Kevin Durant, for example, is obviously more versatile and skilled than any Suns player, he does a great deal of scoring on the perimeter, yet is a "legitimate" SF. Frye is uncomfortable in the post on offense, unless he has a huge height advantage over his man, but is actually a fairly decent low-post defender. Mk Morris has developed something approaching an interior offensive game -- he has, believe it or not, only 23 3FGA on the season(!). (Just over half of Frye's FGA this season are from three-point range, compared to almost 2/3 for Green.)

"Stretch fours" like Frye are legitimate NBA players, at least potentially, and Mk Morris is closer now to a PF than a SF, although I agree that he's borderline. Is either one a center, no, but they're not tall SGs either.

 

[sunsfan88]

Markieff Morris is 6'9, and Marcus Morris is 6'8.

 

[JCSunsfan]

That's something of an exaggeration.

Huge understatement. To call Markieff and Frye 2 guards is silly.

 

[devilalum]

All this talk about positions is mental masturbation. Good players win basketball games and the Suns have a lot of good players.

 

[BC867]

Huge understatement. To call Markieff and Frye 2 guards is silly.

Obviously he meant that they play like Shooting Guards.

Whereas Markieff has stepped up a tad recently, Frye and Marcus play like Wings no matter what position they occupy on the floor.

That is not to say that they can't contribute . . . for the first 2/3 of a season.

But, come crunch time and certainly in the playoffs, it will yield what it has for the last 45 years -- refs and opposing big men taking advantage of the Suns.

But, as was mentioned, that is what Jeff has to work with.

 

[sunsfan88]

Huge understatement. To call Markieff and Frye 2 guards is silly.

Frye plays like a 2 guard. He's a chucker who camps at the 3pt line.

Only difference is that 2 guards have handles that Frye doesn't possess.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Frye plays like a 2 guard. He's a chucker who camps at the 3pt line.

Only difference is that 2 guards have handles that Frye doesn't possess.

He's a stretch 4, his job is to help space the floor by setting up for and making threes along with pulling the opposing big man out of the key so the guards can penetrate. Calling him a shooting guard because he shoots from distance is like calling a bus driver a cop simply because he wears a uniform. He has a job to do and he is doing it quite nicely.

Steve

 

[BC867]

He's a stretch 4, his job is to help space the floor by setting up for and making threes along with pulling the opposing big man out of the key so the guards can penetrate. Calling him a shooting guard because he shoots from distance is like calling a bus driver a cop simply because he wears a uniform. He has a job to do and he is doing it quite nicely.

Steve

Frye is also our backup Center. Didn't we learn from the Alvan Adams years that a Center playing in the backcourt (whether at the top of the key or 23 feet out) doesn't produce championship contenders?

It is like a cop sitting in a precinct waiting for a 911 call rather than in a car or on a motorcycle patrolling his district and responding to 911 calls.

Geez, Steve, now you have me using a metaphor. Frye is a metaphor. A Center playing 23 feet from the basket on offense, leaving us with one less "big" to grab offensive rebounds. Especially if the opponent leaves its Center down low and switches a tall Wing on Frye, where bulk doesn't matter.

 

[devilalum]

Frye is also our backup Center. Didn't we learn from the Alvan Adams years that a Center playing in the backcourt (whether at the top of the key or 23 feet out) doesn't produce championship contenders?

The Suns have had at least a dozen legit "championship contenders," they just haven't won a championship.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Frye is also our backup Center. Didn't we learn from the Alvan Adams years that a Center playing in the backcourt (whether at the top of the key or 23 feet out) doesn't produce championship contenders?

It is like a cop sitting in a precinct waiting for a 911 call rather than in a car or on a motorcycle patrolling his district and responding to 911 calls.

Geez, Steve, now you have me using a metaphor. Frye is a metaphor. A Center playing 23 feet from the basket on offense, leaving us with one less "big" to grab offensive rebounds. Especially if the opponent leaves its Center down low and switches a tall Wing on Frye, where bulk doesn't matter.

Some of us learned a different lesson than you did. I learned that injuries can take a finals team in the wrong direction. Not once did I watch this Suns team in the early AA years and think that Alvan at center was the reason we weren't going to win it all. Most of the time, it was the power forward position I worried about. Keep in mind that the year we did make the finals, we came out of nowhere and Alvan was a big reason that happened.

Also, it is time for you to wake up and smell the changed NBA. This isn't the same game. Look around the league and you'll see a lot of teams with stretch fours. Sure, we'd all rather have a Roy Hibbert but it's become obvious to the league that playing a bad center is far worse than playing no center at all. Play them if you have them but if not, get creative and make up for the fact you're missing a traditional big man by fully utilizing one of the biggest rule changes this game has seen - the three point shot. Shoot it well and defend it equally as well and you can have success in December and in June.

I've said all along that we need another true big man. But that doesn't mean I don't recognize what Channing has done for us this season. He's playing far better than I thought he was capable of (inside and outside, both sides of the ball) and I'd be willing to bet that there would be a lot of teams lined up if we were interested in moving him. His skills force the other big guy out of the key and that adds a lot of inside points and rebounds to our totals that don't show up in Channing's box score.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

He's a stretch 4, his job is to help space the floor by setting up for and making threes along with pulling the opposing big man out of the key so the guards can penetrate. Calling him a shooting guard because he shoots from distance is like calling a bus driver a cop simply because he wears a uniform. He has a job to do and he is doing it quite nicely.

Steve

I agree with your assessment. The Suns would be a vastly inferior team without him to stretch the defense with his shooting. A lot of good teams would love to have Frye backup their center position or be their stretch 4.

If BC867 had his way, he would have a cyclops backing up Plumlee.

As I look at the Suns, one of the key reasons for the Suns turnaround is Frye coming back healthy after being out for a season. He has been a solid contributor who many (including me) thought would not be a factor.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I agree with your assessment. The Suns would be a vastly inferior team without him to stretch the defense with his shooting. A lot of good teams would love to have Frye backup their center position or be their stretch 4.

If BC867 had his way, he would have a cyclops backing up Plumlee.

As I look at the Suns, one of the key reasons for the Suns turnaround is Frye coming back healthy after being out for a season. He has been a solid contributor who many (including me) thought would not be a factor.

I really think this is the best Channing has played as a pro and I sure didn't see it coming. I'm pretty sure I guaranteed that all the Channing love would disappear by January (or thereabouts). As it turns out, the only people still bashing him are the ones that either don't watch the game or watch it with such a horrible stream that they can't tell the difference between Frye and your average shooting guard.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

I really think this is the best Channing has played as a pro and I sure didn't see it coming. I'm pretty sure I guaranteed that all the Channing love would disappear by January (or thereabouts). As it turns out, the only people still bashing him are the ones that either don't watch the game or watch it with such a horrible stream that they can't tell the difference between Frye and your average shooting guard.

Steve

Sitting out a year does not generally help a player but in the case of Channing it did help. He has fresher legs and seems genuinely excited to be back on the NBA court... and it shows. I think he loves the game of basketball and feels privileged to be playing the game again.