Alex Len

Phrazbit

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 10, 2011
Posts
20,318
Reaction score
11,396
Channing is playing much better than I though he would. I agree with Mainstreet that in an odd sense he was lucky to miss all of last year. Seems to have helped his mentality, allowed his shoulder to heal fully. And can you imagine Frye on THAT team from last season? With his come and go confidence on that dysfunctional train wreck of a team? Yikes.
 

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
118,166
Reaction score
58,462
Channing is playing much better than I though he would. I agree with Mainstreet that in an odd sense he was lucky to miss all of last year. Seems to have helped his mentality, allowed his shoulder to heal fully. And can you imagine Frye on THAT team from last season? With his come and go confidence on that dysfunctional train wreck of a team? Yikes.

Good point about the shoulder injury.
 

sunsfan88

ASFN Icon
BANNED BY MODERATORS
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Posts
11,660
Reaction score
844
He's a stretch 4, his job is to help space the floor by setting up for and making threes along with pulling the opposing big man out of the key so the guards can penetrate. Calling him a shooting guard because he shoots from distance is like calling a bus driver a cop simply because he wears a uniform. He has a job to do and he is doing it quite nicely.

Steve

He also rebounds like a SG. Why does a stretch 4 have to be terrible at rebounding? Ryan Anderson, Erson Illoysava, Kevin Love etc are all way better than Frye at rebounding.

Nobody ever told Frye "Hey we want you to chuck and camp at the 3pt line, your banned from ever developing a post game, rebounding like a man, and defending the rim at least a little bit."

Least Frye can do while making $6M/yr to just camp out at 3 is at least make somewhat of a difference on the other end of the court as well.
 

devilalum

Heavily Redacted
Joined
Jul 30, 2002
Posts
16,776
Reaction score
3,187
the biggest rule changes this game has seen - the three point shot.
Steve

IMO the rule that changed the game the most in this regard is the defensive 3 second call. Shaq has said on many occasions that it destroyed his career.
 

devilalum

Heavily Redacted
Joined
Jul 30, 2002
Posts
16,776
Reaction score
3,187
I used to be a big Frye critic but I'm really impressed with him at this point. What a great character guy to have on a young team that needs vet leadership.

How can a guy that's been through so much and fought back to play probably the best basketball of his career be anything but a huge plus for the Suns?
 

Errntknght

Registered User
Joined
Sep 24, 2002
Posts
6,342
Reaction score
319
Location
Phoenix
IMO the rule that changed the game the most in this regard is the defensive 3 second call. Shaq has said on many occasions that it destroyed his career.

What are you talking about? The defensive 3 second rule has been in effect as long as I've watched the game - since 1954.
 

SunsTzu

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Aug 28, 2003
Posts
4,866
Reaction score
1,674
What are you talking about? The defensive 3 second rule has been in effect as long as I've watched the game - since 1954.

No it hasn't, it was added in 2001. Prior to that there was illegal defense that prohibited any type of zone.
 

Superbone

Phoenix native; Lifelong Suns Fan
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Posts
6,348
Reaction score
3,482
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Didn't we learn from the Alvan Adams years that a Center playing in the backcourt (whether at the top of the key or 23 feet out) doesn't produce championship contenders?

Seeing as we were in the Finals, no.
 

AzStevenCal

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2004
Posts
36,760
Reaction score
16,531
What are you talking about? The defensive 3 second rule has been in effect as long as I've watched the game - since 1954.

Yeah, you're thinking of the offensive call for 3 seconds. The rule for the defense changed when they decided to officially allow zone defenses in the NBA.

Steve
 

AzStevenCal

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2004
Posts
36,760
Reaction score
16,531
He also rebounds like a SG. Why does a stretch 4 have to be terrible at rebounding? Ryan Anderson, Erson Illoysava, Kevin Love etc are all way better than Frye at rebounding.

Nobody ever told Frye "Hey we want you to chuck and camp at the 3pt line, your banned from ever developing a post game, rebounding like a man, and defending the rim at least a little bit."

Least Frye can do while making $6M/yr to just camp out at 3 is at least make somewhat of a difference on the other end of the court as well.

Are you just trying to set a record for noise? He doesn't rebound like a shooting guard, not even close. This season, his rebounding rate per 36 minutes is 7.2 which btw is higher than Ilyosova and Anderson right now. When you spend half your time on the perimeter it's expected to take it's toll on your rebounding stats. He's not a great rebounder but you're just making up stuff to try and support your hatred for Frye. You're also completely overlooking the fact that he's actually been a pretty decent defender in the paint this year. Not stellar by any means and someone like Cousins tears him apart but he's a big part of why we're doing so well, your unjustifiable hatred notwithstanding.

Steve
 

AzStevenCal

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2004
Posts
36,760
Reaction score
16,531
IMO the rule that changed the game the most in this regard is the defensive 3 second call. Shaq has said on many occasions that it destroyed his career.

I can't think of too many people less capable of self examination or personal insight than Shaq. He was always guilty of playing a zone and should have been called for it regularly. All the 3 second rule did was formalize something for the refs to use in doing the job they should always have been doing. Remember, zone defense was illegal but they had such convoluted rules regarding it that refs tended to just ignore it unless the opposing coach really worked them over for it (something no Suns coach has ever done effectively). IMO, poor nutrition and ego had a bigger impact on cutting his career short.

I agree though that the zone defense/3 second rule has had a significant impact on the game but so has the attention toward hand checking and many of the rule changes that came out of that Colangelo committee. I think a lot of these are working together to change the way some teams are approaching the 3 point shot. San Antonio, Miami and now Portland have had a lot of success by focusing on that shot, offensively and defensively.

Steve
 
Last edited:

Errntknght

Registered User
Joined
Sep 24, 2002
Posts
6,342
Reaction score
319
Location
Phoenix
Yeah, you're thinking of the offensive call for 3 seconds. The rule for the defense changed when they decided to officially allow zone defenses in the NBA.

Steve

Okay, I must be mistaken... they called it an illegal defense if you stayed in the paint for 3 seconds without guarding anyone - within arm's length. IIRC, there was a period of time when they called an illegal D if you didn't guard anyone for 3 seconds any place on the floor. I remember at the height of it you had to complete a double-team action once you started or you'd run afoul of that rule.

Very early on they didn't have any explicit time for staying the paint - referees just called an illegal zone whenever they felt someone was guarding real estate rather than a player then Stern gave in to the coaches and tried to formalize the anti-zone rules - leading eventually to the isolation plays that spoiled the flow of the game.
 
Last edited:

Superbone

Phoenix native; Lifelong Suns Fan
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Posts
6,348
Reaction score
3,482
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Some of us learned a different lesson than you did. I learned that injuries can take a finals team in the wrong direction. Not once did I watch this Suns team in the early AA years and think that Alvan at center was the reason we weren't going to win it all. Most of the time, it was the power forward position I worried about. Keep in mind that the year we did make the finals, we came out of nowhere and Alvan was a big reason that happened.

Also, it is time for you to wake up and smell the changed NBA. This isn't the same game. Look around the league and you'll see a lot of teams with stretch fours. Sure, we'd all rather have a Roy Hibbert but it's become obvious to the league that playing a bad center is far worse than playing no center at all. Play them if you have them but if not, get creative and make up for the fact you're missing a traditional big man by fully utilizing one of the biggest rule changes this game has seen - the three point shot. Shoot it well and defend it equally as well and you can have success in December and in June.

I've said all along that we need another true big man. But that doesn't mean I don't recognize what Channing has done for us this season. He's playing far better than I thought he was capable of (inside and outside, both sides of the ball) and I'd be willing to bet that there would be a lot of teams lined up if we were interested in moving him. His skills force the other big guy out of the key and that adds a lot of inside points and rebounds to our totals that don't show up in Channing's box score.

Steve

Nice post, Steve. Glad to have you back. Your insight has been missed.
 

BC867

Long time Phoenician!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
17,827
Reaction score
1,709
Location
NE Phoenix
Some of us learned a different lesson than you did. I learned that injuries can take a finals team in the wrong direction. Not once did I watch this Suns team in the early AA years and think that Alvan at center was the reason we weren't going to win it all. Most of the time, it was the power forward position I worried about. Keep in mind that the year we did make the finals, we came out of nowhere and Alvan was a big reason that happened.

Steve
I appreciate your opinion and comments in the paragraphs that followed the first. But in reacting to that one, perhaps you worried about the Power Forward position during the Alvan Adams years (as did I) because our Power Forward was our de-facto Center with Adams on the court and, boy, were they worn down trying to guard bigger players.

We made the finals and had a great one vs. Boston as a Cinderella team in Adams' rookie season because of the gimmick of a 212 lb. Center, drawing their "5" away from the post.

The rest of the league adjusted to it by the following season. Coach John MacLeod did not adjust over the next decade. And we became a the 50-and-fade Suns.

I believe that, unless and until a player like Len or Okafor can function as our backup Center, having Frye and/or Markieff try to cover is going to send us tumbling when the refs start favoring power teams as they always do later in the season and certainly in the playoffs. If our boy Miles Plumlee is all the size we have in the post, we'll really tumble.
 

AzStevenCal

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2004
Posts
36,760
Reaction score
16,531
I appreciate your opinion and comments in the paragraphs that followed the first. But in reacting to that one, perhaps you worried about the Power Forward position during the Alvan Adams years (as did I) because our Power Forward was our de-facto Center with Adams on the court and, boy, were they worn down trying to guard bigger players.

We made the finals and had a great one vs. Boston as a Cinderella team in Adams' rookie season because of the gimmick of a 212 lb. Center, drawing their "5" away from the post.

The rest of the league adjusted to it by the following season. Coach John MacLeod did not adjust over the next decade. And we became a the 50-and-fade Suns.

I believe that, unless and until a player like Len or Okafor can function as our backup Center, having Frye and/or Markieff try to cover is going to send us tumbling when the refs start favoring power teams as they always do later in the season and certainly in the playoffs. If our boy Miles Plumlee is all the size we have in the post, we'll really tumble.

We disappeared from the finals conversation after that season because of injuries, Gar Heard and Curtis Perry especially were never again the same. They each sat out about half the next season because of injuries and Alvan by himself was well outmatched because of it.

Also, I don't buy into your 50 and fade slogan that so many have adopted. We have been more competitive than the vast majority of teams since our inception despite never having any of the iconic players until perhaps the Nash years. Although you could make the case that Connie was iconic, most of his reputation was earned before he landed in Phoenix and he certainly wasn't "special" enough to carry an expansion club.

And you need to watch the Morris brothers a little more. I think they are the type of player that will likely benefit from playoff style refereeing. They are each quite a bit more physical than their typical counterparts. Markieff is at his best when he's putting a hip into the opposing big guy and he's capable of scoring around, through and over most of the bigs he matches up with during his short stretch filling the center role. My main concern with Kieff is upstairs. He plays smart most of the time and then all of a sudden he'll go as dumb as they come. He's also fairly easy to bait, hopefully the coaching staff is working on managing his on-court demeanor.

BTW, I'm not discounting the value a healthy Okafor or a future Len might provide. I keep wondering what we're doing with Emeka. Now that it looks like we are in this for real why isn't he working out with our medical guys? Did we have an unwritten agreement with his agent or something? I can't help but think we already have the answer to our backup center problem nor can I help but remember we actually had an even better answer on our roster last year and we let him walk (to Golden State). A healthy Jermaine would give us the 15 minutes of coverage we lack right now.

Steve
 

82CardsGrad

7 x 70
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Posts
36,151
Reaction score
8,074
Location
Scottsdale
We disappeared from the finals conversation after that season because of injuries, Gar Heard and Curtis Perry especially were never again the same. They each sat out about half the next season because of injuries and Alvan by himself was well outmatched because of it.



Also, I don't buy into your 50 and fade slogan that so many have adopted. We have been more competitive than the vast majority of teams since our inception despite never having any of the iconic players until perhaps the Nash years. Although you could make the case that Connie was iconic, most of his reputation was earned before he landed in Phoenix and he certainly wasn't "special" enough to carry an expansion club.



And you need to watch the Morris brothers a little more. I think they are the type of player that will likely benefit from playoff style refereeing. They are each quite a bit more physical than their typical counterparts. Markieff is at his best when he's putting a hip into the opposing big guy and he's capable of scoring around, through and over most of the bigs he matches up with during his short stretch filling the center role. My main concern with Kieff is upstairs. He plays smart most of the time and then all of a sudden he'll go as dumb as they come. He's also fairly easy to bait, hopefully the coaching staff is working on managing his on-court demeanor.



BTW, I'm not discounting the value a healthy Okafor or a future Len might provide. I keep wondering what we're doing with Emeka. Now that it looks like we are in this for real why isn't he working out with our medical guys? Did we have an unwritten agreement with his agent or something? I can't help but think we already have the answer to our backup center problem nor can I help but remember we actually had an even better answer on our roster last year and we let him walk (to Golden State). A healthy Jermaine would give us the 15 minutes of coverage we lack right now.



Steve


Agree with this... But, with regard to Emeka and/or Len, I'm totally fine leaving that slot in the hands of McDonough and Hornacek. We're not a championship team this year, so with or without a legit backup center I don't think anything much would change for us this year. I can't wait to see what they do after this season with respect to the Center position, as well as so many others....
Until then, I'm totally enjoying this ride that will likely give us some post-season play... Seriously, who thought that was possible just a few short months ago??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

SirStefan32

Krycek, Alex Krycek
Joined
Oct 15, 2002
Posts
18,495
Reaction score
4,905
Location
Harrisburg, PA
I don't disagree, 82- we are not going to win it all, and this was supposed to be "the lost season" anyway. One thing to keep in mind though- making the playoffs will generate some revenue, and getting out of the first round will generate even more revenue, so I do think there is value is improving the team this year. I wouldn't say it's critical, or even very important, but there is some value in that. Two or three extra home games= a lot of revenue.

On the other hand, maybe showcasing what we already have (Morris twins, Frye, Green, etc) is the better way to go- increase their trade value which may bring us a missing piece or two?
 

Magnus

Veteran
Joined
Jan 1, 2011
Posts
268
Reaction score
17
I like this situation way better than being the worst team in the league.

Yes, this is not a championship team, and yes, being horrible would give us a great pick in a star-filled draft.

However, being worst and getting the pick means you have a horrible team with one really good player on it. This way, we have an excellent team with one really good player missing to be a contender. I agree with SirStefan, this raises the trade value of everyone on the team and that is very important.
 

Errntknght

Registered User
Joined
Sep 24, 2002
Posts
6,342
Reaction score
319
Location
Phoenix
I do disagree... I think we can contend for the title this year because we have a number of avenues to improve. One avenue is simply the guys playing together longer... fifty five games is the equivalent of 2 collegiate seasons and they could continue the improvement during the playoffs. Other teams will improve as well but as we are the least experienced among them (as a team) we should improve faster.

The other avenues, in no particular order.

Archie Goodwin is gradually improving and its easy to see that he has a wealth of potential. Probably the most important thing is for him to get more comfortable shooting and there is nothing like game experience to give it. Ramp his minutes up slowly - something like 1 minute more every 4 games as a target, which would allow him to reach 25 minutes by the end of the season. But tie the increase to his defensive performance, which Hornacek has already done I think. Insert him into the game at the same juncture every game so he can be mentally prepared for it, predictability of that kind should help his comfort level. Horny could be doing that already but I don't keep track.

Dragic and Bledsoe can play better together than they have so far by having more direct interaction between them. Now one runs the offense for a while and the other cuts and circulates like a SG, then they switch roles. Recently I gave a list of maneuvers to accomplish the direct interaction and the basic idea is to have split seconds during which the defense is unsure which of them will wind up with the ball, giving them the opportunity to guess wrong. I had another thought about them screening for each other to pick on a weak defender - if there isn't a noticeably weaker one, just choose one and pick on him. Its bound to make the other team wonder what they're up to and it will tire the picked on guy - what you really want to accomplish is getting them to alter the way they defend the screens, which adds a bit of confusion. Or maybe it'll disturb their substitution pattern.

Okafor or Len may get healthy enough to play. We can definitely use stronger rebounding and defense when Plumlee is off the floor and to a lesser extent when he is on it. Fifteen minutes or so from one of them would be enough though it would probably be hard to limit a healthy Okafor to that amount. I wouldn't even rule Kravtsov out of having a role, in spite of SirStephan's (and others) complete disdain for him. Not fifteen minutes but maybe half that - as needed. He is not a stiff except when it comes to shooting - he is even somewhat athletic for a guy his size. He's big and strong and he has played for his national team with some success. I'm not giving up on him until I see for myself that he simply cannot cut it in the NBA. Heck, the regular season is for finding out things like that and I'd like to see him on the floor long enough to get into the flow a few times.

I think we've seen the best of Channing Frye already but I think Markieff can improve some - he just needs to bring it every game. He needs to come on the floor and get into attack mode immediately, regardless of the who we are playing. To me he seems rather timid at first when we play the better teams.

We can keep up the fastbreak pressure more consistently than we do now. Ish Smith has performed well enough to help with that. (I'm glad to see others having a good word to say about him of late.) He can't shoot for sh*t but the other guys just need to work harder to get themselves open so he doesn't feel the need to do it - he prefers to pass the ball.
 

ProdigalSun

Hall of Famer
Joined
Dec 1, 2005
Posts
1,655
Reaction score
1,586
Location
Seattle
I feel like every championship contender has a go-to-guy in crunch time (Heat with Lebron, Lakers with Kobe, Spurs with Parker, etc). Do we have that guy on this team and who would is it?
 

BC867

Long time Phoenician!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
17,827
Reaction score
1,709
Location
NE Phoenix
I feel like every championship contender has a go-to-guy in crunch time (Heat with Lebron, Lakers with Kobe, Spurs with Parker, etc). Do we have that guy on this team and who would is it?
zett said:
It is a big jump from Bledsoe to Lebron/Kobe. Better than we have had in years? Yes. Lebron/Kobe--championship contender? Hardly! (I removed Parker because he was not the most important player on his championship teams.)

We are thrilled that our Suns are no longer the team whose best interest was tanking in 2013-14. But to compete with the best-of-the-best? We have a long way to go if we put it in the hands of Bledsoe, who may choose to move on before we'd ever know.
 

SirStefan32

Krycek, Alex Krycek
Joined
Oct 15, 2002
Posts
18,495
Reaction score
4,905
Location
Harrisburg, PA
I do disagree... I think we can contend for the title this year

I appreciate homerism as much as the next guy, but that's just silly. Suns are not a contender. It's one thing to be 17-10 now, but beating San Antonio, OKC, Indiana, or Miami in a 7 game series is a whole different animal. Suns are not even close.
 

JCSunsfan

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 24, 2002
Posts
22,114
Reaction score
6,547
I appreciate homerism as much as the next guy, but that's just silly. Suns are not a contender. It's one thing to be 17-10 now, but beating San Antonio, OKC, Indiana, or Miami in a 7 game series is a whole different animal. Suns are not even close.

I don't think it is homerism to think that we can compete with any team in the west. Based upon play so far that seems to be true. Of course things can change. Teams could "figure out " the Suns- if not in the regular season then on the playoffs.

Competing with Miami and Indy is completely another matter.
 
Top