Alex Len

[Cheesebeef]

is there ANY word on how Len's ankles are progressing? has he played at all lately? haven't paid as much attention to the boxscores. Pretty funny to me now how many people were just destroying anyone who had health concerns with this kid.

 

[sunsfan88]

is there ANY word on how Len's ankles are progressing? has he played at all lately? haven't paid as much attention to the boxscores. Pretty funny to me now how many people were just destroying anyone who had health concerns with this kid.

It was reported about a week ago that Len is pain free and will start playing in games in 2 weeks.

 

[JCSunsfan]

That's a pretty interesting comparison. I'm not sure where I'd come down on that one.

Its a little silly since both are so highly unlikely. But it serves to show the difference between now and how things looked in September.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I appreciate his ability to hit jumpers and stretch the D. It's the fact that he can't do anything else that drives me crazy. He is a terrible defender. Pick a game, and watch him. Don't watch anyone else- just keep an eye on Frye. You told me to do the same thing last year- look at Scola and nothing else. I did, and I immediately saw what you were talking about.

Frye is by far worse than Scola. He has no concept of blocking out, he is usually late for rotations, or misses them completely. One on one, he is just not strong enough to defend any legitimate 4. His low-post game is terrible (though at least now it exists. Prior to this year, his low post game was 100% non-existent.) There is nothing he brings to the table that a good shooting 2 or 3 would bring. Hell, just start Green on 3, move Tucker to 4.

It would be interesting to do the same with established stars in the league like Tim Duncan, Dirk or KLove. I have a hunch that Dirk is as bad as Frye defensively (not that it has anything to do with this discussion). One of the few big men that I really enjoyed watching play D was Kurt Thomas. All the rest seemed disappointing.

I have watched Love a little. While he is an incredible scorer and rebounder, he has flaws. He cheats off of his man defensively in order to rebound. This leaves his man space to shoot and makes him slow to rotate. You cannot play Love on a good offensive player. He also stands and watches his shot. He is habitually late getting back on D especially if the other team is running at all.

 

[sunsfan88]

It would be interesting to do the same with established stars in the league like Tim Duncan, Dirk or KLove. I have a hunch that Dirk is as bad as Frye defensively (not that it has anything to do with this discussion). One of the few big men that I really enjoyed watching play D was Kurt Thomas. All the rest seemed disappointing.

I have watched Love a little. While he is an incredible scorer and rebounder, he has flaws. He cheats off of his man defensively in order to rebound. This leaves his man space to shoot and makes him slow to rotate. You cannot play Love on a good offensive player. He also stands and watches his shot. He is habitually late getting back on D especially if the other team is running at all.

Is Love really that much worse defensively than Frye though?

 

[95pro]

The pain was rated at a low 1. Doesn't mean there can't be set backs though.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Is Love really that much worse defensively than Frye though?

No. I don't think I said he was.

 

[Errntknght]

I really tried to watch Frye closely for a game but it was too painful! (Just kidding but I've thought about doing it and that already hurts.)

 

[SirStefan32]

It would be interesting to do the same with established stars in the league like Tim Duncan, Dirk or KLove. I have a hunch that Dirk is as bad as Frye defensively (not that it has anything to do with this discussion). One of the few big men that I really enjoyed watching play D was Kurt Thomas. All the rest seemed disappointing.

I have watched Love a little. While he is an incredible scorer and rebounder, he has flaws. He cheats off of his man defensively in order to rebound. This leaves his man space to shoot and makes him slow to rotate. You cannot play Love on a good offensive player. He also stands and watches his shot. He is habitually late getting back on D especially if the other team is running at all.

Oh I agree on just about everything. I loved watching Kurt Thomas play D. One of my favorite players. Dirk was terrible- worse than Frye, but he did get better. He's older now, so he might be worse now, but he did have 2-3 years where he was a competent defender.

Love is not a good defender. I don't think I'd even call him competent. Having said that, I do look at rebounding as a part of defense, so I am not really opposed to K-Love as long as he is playing alongside a good defensive 5.

Good news is that he is an excellent rebounder, and he is a big guy- people can't push him around as easily as they push Frye; and for the most part, teams don't have two good offensive big men, so you can "hide" Love as long as you have a good starting C, and a decent defensive PF/C back-up.

I just can't figure K-Love out. Maybe he needs a change of scenery to really become a superstar, but it really worries me that he hasn't been able to lead his team (not a terrible team, either!) to playoffs. 95% of players I can say "Yes, I want him on the team!" or "No thanks!", but K-Love is definitely one of the 5% I just can't figure out.

 

[SirStefan32]

I really tried to watch Frye closely for a game but it was too painful! (Just kidding but I've thought about doing it and that already hurts.)

Ha!

 

[sunsfan88]

More noise. He's averaging 27 minutes per game. It's not reasonable to praise him for rebounding better than someone who only plays 11 minutes per game and it's equally unreasonable to demand he pull down as many boards as a power forward logging 40 minutes per game. You took a shot at him because he didn't rebound as well as the guys you mentioned and yet it turns out he's rebounding at a better rate than 2 of the 3 guys you compared him to.



You weren't posting here at that time so I really don't know how you felt about him back then. I do know you have been avidly against him from the beginning of your time on this board. There were times when it was justified but you're coming here with the same tired stuff and ignoring all that he has done for us this season.



It's hard to say he's not living up to his salary this season. There are 106 players making more than him. If you ignore the players still on their initial contract, I don't see how you can possibly come up with 106 players that are doing a better job of earning their paychecks out there.



Actually, I think his help defense is much better than his low post defense (which can be pretty atrocious at times). He's had a handful of obvious blunders (or he's been a part of them, we'll never really know who's blew their responsibility) but for the most part he's rotated when he should and he's doubled when he should. He's not a great defender but this is by far the best I've seen him play at that end of the court.



Blocks? Who freaking cares about blocked shot stats? How many championships did Dikembe win? Do you really think if he averaged 1 more block per game that we'd be noticeably better than we are right now. And one more blocked shot per game would put him right there with Miles who is 8th in the league.



He scores in double digits about 75% of the time. NBA players have up games and down games and it's even more true if your game is mostly putting up 3 pointers. I'd like a little more consistency from him too but some of his down nights are the result of our depth. He misses his first couple shots and the Morris twins come in and get hot and the next thing you know he's logging 17 to 23 minutes instead of his usual 27 to 31 minutes. There's a reason that he's only logging one minute more per game than Markieff despite the fact that Morris doesn't start.



I didn't say it affected his defensive stats. It decreases his opportunities to pull down offensive boards. 4.5 defensive rebounds for a guy that only plays 27 minutes isn't horrible. My guess, it's somewhere around average for a forward that specializes in long distance shooting.



You really need to stop watching reruns from a couple of years ago. Your comments are so dated and so inaccurate for this year's version of team and player. Jeff doesn't give him the chance to kill us, if Frye is not the answer Jeff goes elsewhere. That's why he's playing 27 minutes per game. And he doesn't just take 3's. He takes 4 to 5 regular shots per game in addition to his three's. He usually sets up outside the arc but when the defender has overplayed him he's blown by him for a layup or slam dunk on many occasions this season.

The biggest problem here though is that you are ignoring the things that don't show up in his box score. Take Frye off of this team and we have less success penetrating and our offensive rebounds would take a huge hit too. You're also ignoring the fact he is shooting .421 from three point range. Shooting .333 from distance nets the same as shooting .500 from two point range. Shooting at his volume and making them at a .421 clip is an incredible asset to this club.

He's not a star and he can still be a liability at times but look around the NBA, that describes most of the starters in this league. We're getting plenty of bang for our buck from Channing this season. Just the simple fact that the other team has to game plan for him makes everyone else's job a little easier. Two years ago we would have had to toss in a player and maybe a pick to get rid of him. This year there are a lot of teams that would offer real value for a chance to add him to their roster. And that doesn't include the leadership he's provided for this young squad (according to his teammates).

My suggestion to you: Lay off the guy until he goes south again. History suggests that will happen. But this year, the guy has been pretty special for us. You ought to give him his due.

Steve

How are you ok with 5 rebounds a game from a PF that plays 27 mins? It blows my mind. I am going to assume that you (along with every other Suns fan in the world) were constantly bashing Amare for his rebounding when he was here but Frye with 5 is ok?

And doesn't matter if there's 106 players who are paid more than Frye. Frye isn't a top 80 or probably even top 100 player. Just cause there a few who are overpaid like him doesn't justify him not living up to the deal.

I'm glad you noticed that all he does is 3pt shooting as well. Any player who only focuses on 3pt shooting will be inconsistent throughout their whole career. Even the great Ray Allen didn't rely on 3pt shooting for all his pts in his prime. Frye chucking doesn't give him the excuse to be inconsistent.

And btw, Frye has scored in double digits 50% of the time this season, not 75%.

Here is Frye's game log for December:

9 pts vs GSW
7 pts vs LAL
18 pts vs DAL
3 pts vs DEN
22 pts vs SAS
20 pts vs GSW
11 pts vs SAC
11 pts vs LAL
2 pts vs TOR
14 pts vs HOU
8 pts vs MEM

Awful consistency.

And just because this is the best defense Frye has played doesn't mean that he's playing good defense. The smartest kid in a class full of mentally challenged kids isn't smart.

You are right that Hornacek doesn't give Frye the chance to kill us. That's one of the main things I like about Hornacek and one of the things I hated about Gentry. But that doesn't make Frye good. You think Horncaek is happy with having to pull his starter because he's playing like crap? Uh no.

And you don't think Kieff can fill Frye's role? I agree that if you take Frye off the team, penetrating will be more difficult for Dragic and Bledsoe but Kieff can do what Frye does and actually play better defense and rebound. And we just need someone who can knock down jumpers and has an inside game like LMA, Amare in his prime, Dirk, Millsap, Horford, Love etc.

I'm curious about this "real value" that we can get for Frye. What do you think we can get?

 

[Chaplin]

Frye is definitely a top 5 player on this team--if you think otherwise, you either have orange-colored glasses on or simply don't watch the games. He's far from perfect, but really, if he's as bad as you all think he is, than why bother coming up with trade scenarios where you actually give him a value that is higher than you think he has? Makes no sense.

 

[AzStevenCal]

How are you ok with 5 rebounds a game from a PF that plays 27 mins? It blows my mind. I am going to assume that you (along with every other Suns fan in the world) were constantly bashing Amare for his rebounding when he was here but Frye with 5 is ok?

I'm not thrilled with 5 rebounds per game (7 if he plays typical starter minutes). I've said over and again that I would prefer a typical bruiser power forward. I'd much rather have a power forward that can post up, grab every rebound in his area, defend on the blocks and hold his position against all comers. Frye is not my idea of a power forward. BUT. He's a hard worker, gives everything he has out there, shoots it well from distance and is a good role model for the rest of the young players on this team.

Answer me this, if he truly is one of the worst players in the league as you continually make him out to be then why is he at the top of the +/- list for us? Here are the numbers:

Channing Frye 129
Goran Dragic 123
Marcus Morris 92
Markieff Morris 17
Dionte Christmas 12
Miles Plumlee 10
PJ Tucker 8
Eric Bledsoe 3
Gerald Green 1
Alex Len -13
Archie Goodwin -18
Ish Smith -26
V Kravtsov -28

Sure, this stat can be somewhat misleading at times but in general it's a pretty good indicator of the impact a player has on his club. If you look around the league you'll see that the better players typically have the better numbers. It's not perfect, Norris Cole for example leads Miami in this stat but it's still a pretty revealing tool

I wish we could get away with just using him in the right matchup situations but our needs are such that we demand more from him. No matter how much I'd prefer a different style power forward though I'm not blind to the simple fact that Frye has helped us win this season. He was horrible last night and he was horrible the first 8 games of the season. In between there was a 19 game stretch where he shot 47% from three point range and we were winning in large part because of it.

 

[BC867]

He's a hard worker, gives everything he has out there, shoots it well from distance and is a good role model for the rest of the young players on this team.

Steve, you're really reaching. You are an honorable man.

But the best you can find to say about Channing Frye is:

-- Hard worker (I would hope so)

-- Gives everything he has (I would hope so)

-- Shoots it well from distance (in his 4 Suns seasons, he
has averaged 11.2, 12.7, 10.5 and 11.0. 'Pretty marginal
for the only statistical attribute you mention)

-- Good role model ('not the basis for tying up a spot as a
starter or even in the rotation)

 

[AzStevenCal]

Steve, you're really reaching. You are an honorable man.

But the best you can find to say about Channing Frye is:

-- Hard worker (I would hope so)

-- Gives everything he has (I would hope so)

-- Shoots it well from distance (in his 4 Suns seasons, he
has averaged 11.2, 12.7, 10.5 and 11.0. 'Pretty marginal
for the only statistical attribute you mention)

-- Good role model ('not the basis for tying up a spot as a
starter or even in the rotation)

If you followed this conversation from the beginning though you'd see that I'm not really championing Channing Frye as much as I am defending him. 88 has continually ripped him and while I don't think he's a star, I do believe he's been a valuable asset this season. IMO, this 19 game stretch (that ended prior to the Warriors loss) is the best he's ever played on both ends of the court.

I do think you're overlooking one of the points I've made in Channing's favor. We have an unusual team this season. Having a pair of penetrating point guards out there together makes Frye far more important than he would be in a traditional offense. I'm not sure it's the way to go in the long run but right now, his ability to pull his counterpart out of the paint is of huge importance to our success and it doesn't show up in his individual stats unless you look at the +/- numbers. It's the only explanation I have for why we are so much more successful when he is on the court. Although I haven't ruled out magic.

Steve

 

[sunsfan88]

I'm not thrilled with 5 rebounds per game (7 if he plays typical starter minutes). I've said over and again that I would prefer a typical bruiser power forward. I'd much rather have a power forward that can post up, grab every rebound in his area, defend on the blocks and hold his position against all comers. Frye is not my idea of a power forward. BUT. He's a hard worker, gives everything he has out there, shoots it well from distance and is a good role model for the rest of the young players on this team.

Answer me this, if he truly is one of the worst players in the league as you continually make him out to be then why is he at the top of the +/- list for us? Here are the numbers:

Channing Frye 129
Goran Dragic 123
Marcus Morris 92
Markieff Morris 17
Dionte Christmas 12
Miles Plumlee 10
PJ Tucker 8
Eric Bledsoe 3
Gerald Green 1
Alex Len -13
Archie Goodwin -18
Ish Smith -26
V Kravtsov -28

Sure, this stat can be somewhat misleading at times but in general it's a pretty good indicator of the impact a player has on his club. If you look around the league you'll see that the better players typically have the better numbers. It's not perfect, Norris Cole for example leads Miami in this stat but it's still a pretty revealing tool

I wish we could get away with just using him in the right matchup situations but our needs are such that we demand more from him. No matter how much I'd prefer a different style power forward though I'm not blind to the simple fact that Frye has helped us win this season. He was horrible last night and he was horrible the first 8 games of the season. In between there was a 19 game stretch where he shot 47% from three point range and we were winning in large part because of it.

Not sometimes, its extremely misleading. Posters on this board including myself have ripped Slinslin for using +/- to guage if a player is good or not. Its one of the most useless stats in basketball right next to PER and per 36.

And I didn't address this before so I'll do it now. You said that I was wrong because Frye averages more rebounds than Anderson. You are correct. However, I also posted that I would be ok with Frye being bad on the boards if he giving us some very good scoring....he isn't and Anderson is. Anderson averages almost twice as many pts as Frye while shooting a better % from 3. I wouldn't complain about him if Frye was giving us 20 pts a night on the same efficiency as Anderson.

I think there's one thing both me and you agree on...Frye can't be counted on as a starter but he makes a ton of sense as a role player off the bench. If he's hot leave him in, if he's not keep him out. Same way Pop uses Matt Bonner except Frye is like the better version of Bonner.

Remember one thing, the Suns were at their best in the past when Frye came off the bench. That's when we made our run to the WCF. He started for us, cooled off and sucked and then became good role player for our bench which was spectacular that year.

I just want us to find a PF that can do the things that guys like Thad Young, Chris Bosh, LMA, Amare (in his prime), Lee, Love etc. A guy that can hit jumpers but also a guy that we can dump the ball off to in the paint and say go score.

 

[Suns_fan69]

I don't ever remember a version of Amare that we could dump the ball off to in the paint and say go score. His points came almost exclusively off pick and rolls with a guard and getting the ball while diving hard to the rim.

What I remember is him backing down slowly and then wildly flailing while yelling "AND 1" repeatedly.

 

[sunsfan88]

I don't ever remember a version of Amare that we could dump the ball off to in the paint and say go score. His points came almost exclusively off pick and rolls with a guard and getting the ball while diving hard to the rim.

What I remember is him backing down slowly and then wildly flailing while yelling "AND 1" repeatedly.

Amare didn't have much of a back to the basket game but he was very skilled in getting the ball and facing the basket and either driving it in to score/get fouled or shooting the jumper.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Frye being bad

I am so tired of defending Frye, I can just imagine how tired everyone is from reading all this crap. So I surrender. Shoot him and bury his carcass out back.

Steve

 

[JCSunsfan]

I am so tired of defending Frye, I can just imagine how tired everyone is from reading all this crap. So I surrender. Shoot him and bury his carcass out back.

Steve

Every year there has to be a villain on the team that people can complain about. With Beasley and brown gone and the Morris bros playing well, frye is all there is left. Pretty good news when your team scape goat has the best +/- on the team.

 

[Errntknght]

And you've done a good job of defending him. You gave me cause to think with his +126 rating on +/- stat. I know the pitfalls of that stat and tend to only use it for point guards because for them their +/- is their bottom line but it means a little something. I dug back into Frye's history and the two years that he played with Nash he was second only to Nash and was not that far behind him. One possibility is that Gentry tended to only play him when Nash was on the floor and he got sort of a free ride. I don't recall anyone pointing that out but if his floor time was 70% with Nash, it probably wouldn't be that noticeable as long as they didn't sub in and out together most of the time.
Still its enough of a pattern to make me think I need to pay more attention to Frye's effect on the game without getting too caught up in his mistakes. We tend to remember events that agree with our preconceived notions and forget ones that disagree. Its simply the way our brains work at the unconscious level and we have to work hard mentally to counteract it even if we know it's true. (In fact, its worse than thet - we constantly rework our memories to make them more consistent with events or changes in our outlook that happened later, quite unaware that we do it as it is not under conscious control. No trace of the original memory remains so we cannot compare it with the new one and catch ourselves 'fixing' it. Of course, if you're married you might find yourself having disagreements about past events that you are absolutely sure of. 'I remember it like it was yesterday!')

 

[Kel Varnsen]

It was reported about a week ago that Len is pain free and will start playing in games in 2 weeks.

Is this so he has time to get into playing shape or something?

 

[AzStevenCal]

Is this so he has time to get into playing shape or something?

I don't know for sure but this sounds likely. He can't be anywhere near game shape given how much he's had to stay off his feet.

Steve

 

[Phrazbit]

Every year there has to be a villain on the team that people can complain about. With Beasley and brown gone and the Morris bros playing well, frye is all there is left. Pretty good news when your team scape goat has the best +/- on the team.

As you all know, I love to bemoan the guys that infuriate me, but so far this year I don't have a target on the Suns.

Frye is playing better than I ever remember him playing, including his first year here, which I felt like all he did was shoot wide open shots courtesy of Nash. Coming into the year I thought the Suns would be better off if he retired, but instead his ability to spread the court has become a vital cog in the offense. The Morri have been flat out solid. PJ (who I liked last year too) has cut down on his trademark "foot out of bounds to begin the dribble" routine.

Closest thing to a whipping boy I think this team has is Green, but the bar was set so low for him coming into the year that his faults are largely forgiven. Seriously though, that guy takes dumber shots and is a less willing passer than Shannon the Cannon, but he is much better defensively and, on the occasions that he spot up shoots rather than tries to take guys off the dribble, is a better shooter than Shannon.

Oh, and I guess titular-Len obviously qualifies here. Not exactly as a "villian", but certainly the biggest dud worth grousing about thus far in the season.

 

[sunsfan88]

Is this so he has time to get into playing shape or something?

Probably. He's gonna have to start practicing for at least a week before playing games I would think.

Coro's update on him:

Suns rookie center Alex Len has progressed to joining in the Suns’ shooting drills in practices. He has not played in a game for more than a month due to soreness in the left ankle that was repaired in May. He has not felt soreness recently but is being worked back in slowly to prevent another reoccurrence.