Amare and the Playoffs

[Irish]

Offensively Amare improved from last year: 20.4 ppg to 25.2 ppg, 57.5% to 59%, FT from 78.1% to 80.5%, and assists from 1.0 to 1.5 apg. On defense Amare upped his blocks from 1.3 bpg to 2.1 bpg; but his rebounding dropped from 9.6 rpg to 9.1 rpg.

Clearly the Suns need more rebounding from Amare. I think they'll get it.

One interesting stat as it relates to the playoffs is that Amare's rebounding is closely related to the amount of rest he gets. This season, his rebounding was:

0 days rest - 7.7
1 day rest - 9.2
2 days rest - 9.4
3 days rest - 11.0
4 days rest - 13.0

It may be that the extra rest combines with his overall tendency to inprove his game in the playoffs.

2004-05
Regular 8.9 rpg 26.0 ppg
Playoffs 10.7 rpg 29.9 ppg

2006-07
Regular 9.6 rpg 20.4 ppg
Playoffs 12.1 rpg 25.3 ppg

In the Spurs series 2006-07, Amare averaged 10.6 rpg and 26.0 ppg. In 2004-05 Spurs series, he averaged 9.8 rpg and 37.0 ppg.

My guess is that there are very few people whose stats get better when playing in the playoffs including playing against the Spurs. Amare is one of them.

 

[Proteus]

What's the difference in minutes played in the regular season games vs the playoff ones?

 

[mojorizen7]

Amare just needs to stay on the floor and learn to play with 2 fouls in the first half of games.
If he can do that, we'll be good to go because the SPURS have no answer for his game.

 

[Covert Rain]

Offensively Amare improved from last year: 20.4 ppg to 25.2 ppg, 57.5% to 59%, FT from 78.1% to 80.5%, and assists from 1.0 to 1.5 apg. On defense Amare upped his blocks from 1.3 bpg to 2.1 bpg; but his rebounding dropped from 9.6 rpg to 9.1 rpg.

Clearly the Suns need more rebounding from Amare.

Amare's lack of rebounding is grossly over exaggeratedly by media and fans alike. Could he be better? OK, but that doesn't mean he isn't already good. I am sick of the media especially making it out like Amare is horrible....(i.e. the Chuckster on TNT).

Here are the top rebounding forwards in the league:

Emeka Okafor RPG 10.7 PPG 13.8
Lamar Odom RPG 10.6 PPG 14.2
Carlos Boozer RPG 10.4 PPG 21.1
Shawn Marion 10.2 PPG 15.4
Antawn Jamison RPG 10.2 PPG 21.4
Nick Collison RPG 9.4 PPG 9.8
Kevin Garnett RPG 9.2 PPG 18.8
Amare Stoudemire RPG 9.1 PPG 25.2

I did not include Tim Duncan because he is a center or anybody who doesn't qualify because they didn't play enough games and their number are skewed.

So..only 7 forwards in the entire NBA rebound more then Amare. Two of which have less then a half rebound difference. Of all those players only Boozer and Jamison are nearly taking on as much an offensive load. Sorry but I will take the leading scoring PF in the NBA with his atrocious top 8 in rebounding among PF in the NBA.

I think we need Amare to stay out of foul trouble and play more consistent defense then we do him grabbing 1 more rebound per game.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

NBA PLAYOFFS: Suns can't win it all with Amare

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[FONT=Verdana,Times New Roman,Times,Serif]By David Hirigoyen, The Daily Courier[/FONT]

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[FONT=Verdana,Times New Roman,Times,Serif]+ click to enlarge[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Times New Roman,Times,Serif]The Associated Press
Amare Stoudemire will get help from Shaq this year for Tim Duncan and San Antonio.[/FONT]

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[FONT=Verdana,Times New Roman,Times,Serif]Thursday, April 17, 2008[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Times New Roman,Times,Serif]I believe the last time I chimed in about the NBA, it was after the Spurs bounced the Suns from the playoffs and I advocated Phoenix trading Amare Stoudemire for Kevin Garnett.

Weeks ago I was prepared to whip up an I-told-you-so, but something happened - hope for Nash and crew began to emerge.

And wouldn't you know, the Suns open the playoffs the way they closed them a year ago ... against the dreaded Spurs.

Now just to get it out of the way, I still believe trading Amare would have been a good idea. That might even draw more blowback than it did last year with his recent play.

But as tremendous as Stoudemire has been down the stretch on offense, he remains one of the worst defenders in the league. Paired with Nash, that is not a good thing.

When the Suns were struggling not too long ago, this topic was heating up. But the somewhat unpopular Shaq-for-Marion trade actually covered this up.

Before, big guys would carve up the guys in purple for career bests on a nightly basis. Players like Tim Duncan would salivate at the thought of going against Stoudemire.

Shaq - if he stays out of foul trouble - can slow Duncan and the like enough to give Phoenix a shot, as demonstrated late in the year in one of the Suns' three wins this season against San Antonio.

One problem remains: While big men now have to contend with O'Neal, Phoenix still has no defense for even a descent perimeter player.

Normally, I would expect Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili to bounce the Suns before May. But the Spurs look just vulnerable enough for Phoenix to finally get by.

But don't get your hopes up. I think that will be the end of the line. Chris Paul and New Orleans or Kobe and the Lakers will send the Suns home early yet again.

Marion was the best defender they had, but the Suns still didn't play any defense. The players they have left couldn't stop a YMCA team.

Nash and Shaq will run out of gas because Mike D'Antoni refused to use his bench all year. And Stoudemire, for all his talent, is not a guy you can go to in crunch time. He can pile up the points but can't win a big game.

The good news is they will remove the Spurs from the postseason so we won't have to worry about the possibility of an unwatchable Finals again.

The bad news is it will be another season that ends before or around Memorial Day with the window of opportunity closing.

The Suns are getting older and more strapped financially. They either trade their draft picks or let them play cheerleader on the bench.

And they do things like ask Seattle what it needed to do to get the Sonics to take Kurt Thomas off their hands. So they took him off Phoenix's hands, plus two first-round draft picks, in exchange for a second-round choice.

With moves like that, don't expect Steve Kerr to come up with a fix. Too many teams have passed the Suns by and they don't have the wheels to make up any ground.
[/FONT]

 

[SirStefan32]

Amare's lack of rebounding is grossly over exaggeratedly by media and fans alike. Could he be better? OK, but that doesn't mean he isn't already good. I am sick of the media especially making it out like Amare is horrible....(i.e. the Chuckster on TNT).

Here are the top rebounding forwards in the league:

Emeka Okafor RPG 10.7 PPG 30
Lamar Odom RPG 10.6 PPG 14.2
Carlos Boozer RPG 10.4 PPG 21.1
Antawn Jamison RPG 10.2 PPG 21.4
Nick Collison RPG 9.4 PPG 9.8
Kevin Garnett RPG 9.2 PPG 18.8
Amare Stoudemire RPG 9.1 PPG 25.2

I did not include Tim Duncan because he is a center.

So..only 6 forwards in the entire NBA rebound more then Amare. 2 of which have less then a half rebound difference. Of all those players only Boozer and Jamison are nearly taking on as much an offensive load. Sorry but I will take the leading scoring PF in the NBA with his atrocious top 7 in rebounding among PF in the NBA.

I think we need Amare to stay out of foul trouble and play more consistent defense then we do him grabbing 1 more rebound per game.

So, it's ok for him to be lazy and give up rebounds because other forwards are not averaging more boards than he is?

There is no reason that somebody as athletic and as strong as Stoudemire should not be averaging 11 or 12 rebounds. He is just lazy when it comes to anything other than scoring points and occasionally blocking shots.

Nick freaking Collison is a better rebounder than Amare.

I am sorry, but just because he is the best offensive player in the game does not mean he has a license to be lazy when it comes to defense and rebounding.

 

[abomb]

Amare's lack of rebounding is grossly over exaggeratedly by media and fans alike. Could he be better? OK, but that doesn't mean he isn't already good. I am sick of the media especially making it out like Amare is horrible....(i.e. the Chuckster on TNT).

Here are the top rebounding forwards in the league:

Emeka Okafor RPG 10.7 PPG 30
Lamar Odom RPG 10.6 PPG 14.2
Carlos Boozer RPG 10.4 PPG 21.1
Shawn Marion 10.2 PPG 15.4
Antawn Jamison RPG 10.2 PPG 21.4
Nick Collison RPG 9.4 PPG 9.8
Kevin Garnett RPG 9.2 PPG 18.8
Amare Stoudemire RPG 9.1 PPG 25.2

Okafor averages 13.8 PPG.

 

[Covert Rain]

So, it's ok for him to be lazy and give up rebounds because other forwards are not averaging more boards than he is?

There is no reason that somebody as athletic and as strong as Stoudemire should not be averaging 11 or 12 rebounds. He is just lazy when it comes to anything other than scoring points and occasionally blocking shots.

Nick freaking Collison is a better rebounder than Amare.

I am sorry, but just because he is the best offensive player in the game does not mean he has a license to be lazy when it comes to defense and rebounding.

He is top 8. What you call lazy couldn't possibly be that is just not his #1 strength? Again, his stats are good. Could it not be he is expending so much energy on offense there is not much left for rebounding? Couldn't it be his progress in technique has been stunted by not being able to play his natural position all this time?

So those same forwards I listed above who don't score as much or block as much as Amare...are they lazy too? Why should the lazy view only apply to Amare and only in regards to one stat? So those other guys on this list have a license or get a free pass when they score and block less? Last time I checked blocking shots and scoring takes allot of effort in the NBA.

I guess KG is lazy too since they were even in RPG until the last few games. Damn those last few games. KG would have gotten the lazy tag instead of Amare. Now KG is an MVP. Give me a break. Amare averaging 1 more rebound per game is going to make a difference?

Amare has deficiencies but his RPG is not a concern. His defense and staying out of foul trouble will help this team much more then averaging 1 more rebound per game and getting his name in the top 3 among Power Forwards for rebounding.

Okafor averages 13.8 PPG.

Ooops. Typo. Fixed that.

 

[nashman]

I hope we get lots of articles like the crap above, let them all doubt. For any of them to make assumptions on how this team is gonna play in the playoffs is a joke, since none of them has seen THIS team play in the playoffs.

 

[STATfan4Life]

 

[AfroSuns]

My first Post

I totally agree with steeldog, Amare shouldnt be judged as lazy by his rebounding stats, i think he makes up for it in other areas and the way i see it, with Shaq in the game i doubt he can improve on what he is currently averaging.
What i do think he needs to improve on is his defence, i think he tries too hard sometime thereby getting himself in foul trouble but we also have to cut him some slack too because every coach is gunning to put him in foul trouble as that is their only answer to his potent offense.

 

[nowagimp]

Its funny how an ignornant writer can be so sure of what this suns team can do in the playoffs. The suns cannot win a championship with amare stoudemire guarding bigger and stronger centers like tim duncan, because this is how they take him out of his game. the suns have that big fella now, amare doesnt have to guard a low post monster, unless you consider oberto(HAHA) a low post monster. Its gonna be alot harder to take amare out of his game now, bad news for opposing teams. The issue isn't amares rebounding, he's the second most important rebounder on the team(to shaq), unlike many of those other guys whos primary duty is to rebound. Amare stoudemires role on the suns is to score efficiently, and he's the best PF in the NBA at that. The big question with the suns is will the outside shooters deliver to ensure that amare has operating room? If the opposition plays zone, will they be punished? that is up to LB, Raja Nash, and Giri to ensure that the lane isnt so clogged that the best offensive weapon at PF in the NBA can do his job. Amare will do his job if the shooters give him room, and if he stays out of foul trouble.

My only concern about amare is that he tends to pick up cheap fouls, slapping at the ball when he shouldnt even try. If he's beaten defensively, he has to let that guy score, not pick up a cheapie. Hopefully shaq will show him the way. I have a feeling that amare really listens to shaq, and I am expecting him to act accordingly.

 

[Cheesebeef]

personally, I think Amare's perceived laziness comes not from the fact that he only averages 9/1 rebounds per game, it comes from the fact that he doesn't average double-digits rbeounds AND that his man seemingly gets offensive rebounds at will on him. The reason that KG doesn't get the same criticism with his numbers is a) it's the first time in years his number shave ever been that low and b) if he doesn't get the rebound, neither is his man... not to mention he's a tenacious defender.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

IMO Amare's lack of rebouding numbers are not tied to effort, it's tied to poor positioning, poor defensive strategy/coaching, his desire to contest every shot including threes and his desire to gaurd every player not his man. I just refuse to accept the theory that Amare works his ass off in every aspect of his game but purposely tanks it's on the boards, that lacks a lot of logic.

who exactly is in charge of defense on this team? Jay Humphries? dan dan tony? (the Mike Stoops of the phoenix suns) he sucked on defense too.

 

[Covert Rain]

personally, I think Amare's perceived laziness comes not from the fact that he only averages 9/1 rebounds per game, it comes from the fact that he doesn't average double-digits rbeounds AND that his man seemingly gets offensive rebounds at will on him. The reason that KG doesn't get the same criticism with his numbers is a) it's the first time in years his number shave ever been that low and b) if he doesn't get the rebound, neither is his man... not to mention he's a tenacious defender.

Good points. It does bring to mind though when Amare was averaging like 50 points against Duncan. Was not Duncan still having a good night as well? I seem to remember him having good scoring nights and rebounding nights against Amare during those games. So, was Duncan being lazy on defense against Amare during those games? That's ridiculous.

I just don't see how anybody can consider anybody in the top 10 of anything in the NBA bad. Just makes no sense. 1 more rebound per game and the guy would be in the top 3. It's not like he is 5 away. I just hate it when people apply logic to one aspect (statistic) then conveniently only apply it to Amare.

The media is really pissing me off lately. If your going to make a stupid argument it should at least be logical. Yes I am talking to you Sir Charles. Either that or qualify your argument with "anybody out of the top 5 at rebounding in their position is bad" then back it up. As stupid as that would be for anybody to say, at least it would be logical and apply across the board.

IMO Amare's lack of rebouding numbers are not tied to effort, it's tied to poor positioning, poor defensive strategy/coaching, his desire to contest every shot including threes and his desire to gaurd every player not his man. I just refuse to accept the theory that Amare works his ass off in every aspect of his game but purposely tanks it's on the boards, that lacks a lot of logic.

Somebody else gets it. Good post Treesquid. Besides 8th in the league is not tanking it. If your top 10 anything in the NBA your good.

Sorry guys...stepping off my soap box. I am getting a little testy 1 day away from the playoffs.

 

[outcent13]

I actually had a nightmare that Amare was chasing Tony Parker around the court with a tennis racket and got suspended for the rest of the playoffs.LOL I think I might have had a few that night.

 

[AfroSuns]

I actually had a nightmare that Amare was chasing Tony Parker around the court with a tennis racket and got suspended for the rest of the playoffs.LOL I think I might have had a few that night.

LOL, i hope it wont come to that but i strongly believe this is going to be a very physical series and Amare being who he is; all passionate and all is not thrown out of a game, Bowen pissed him off the last game i wont be surprise if bowen pulls another one in an effort to get STATS to act rashly. Hopefully Shaq will keep him level-headed through out the series so that he can stay away from ticky tack Technicals.

 

[Covert Rain]

LOL, i hope it wont come to that but i strongly believe this is going to be a very physical series and Amare being who he is; all passionate and all is not thrown out of a game, Bowen pissed him off the last game i wont be surprise if bowen pulls another one in an effort to get STATS to act rashly. Hopefully Shaq will keep him level-headed through out the series so that he can stay away from ticky tack Technicals.

I really hope the series doesn't come down with Bowenitis or Horryitis. I would prefer that the refs send an early message and keep a tight whistle at the start to send a clear message the crap that Cheap Shot Bob pulled last year or Bonehead Bowen did this year will not be tolerated.

If not, start the count down now until the first confrontation on court.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Good points. It does bring to mind though when Amare was averaging like 50 points against Duncan. Was not Duncan still having a good night as well? I seem to remember him having good scoring nights and rebounding nights against Amare during those games. So, was Duncan being lazy on defense against Amare during those games? That's ridiculous.

well, Amare was and is one of the greatest offensive forces in the NBA and some guys are literally unstoppable, as Amare was. The problem is that seemingly EVERYONE looks unstoppable against Amare. He makes guys who have business looking even good, look great. That in my opinion is what the difference is. If a superstar who can't be stopped by anyone else is lighting you up it's one thing, but to be lit up by every tom, dick and harry you're matched up against is another.

 

[Irish]

My main point was that I think Amare will play better in the playoffs than during the regular season.

BTW, I'm curious about the matchups

Oberto defending Amare
Duncan defending Shaq
Bowen defending Nash
Parker defending Bell
Manu defending Hill

Last year Oberto had weakside help from Duncan, which seems less likely with Shaq in the lineup. Hill's ball handling skills may end up negating the "get the ball out of Nash's hands" strategy.

 

[SirStefan32]

IMO Amare's lack of rebouding numbers are not tied to effort, it's tied to poor positioning, poor defensive strategy/coaching, his desire to contest every shot including threes and his desire to gaurd every player not his man.

It is tied to his refusal to block out, plain and simple. Blocking out, rebounding and defending doesn't get you on Sportcenter, so he doesn't do it. That's all there is to it.

 

[Covert Rain]

well, Amare was and is one of the greatest offensive forces in the NBA and some guys are literally unstoppable, as Amare was. The problem is that seemingly EVERYONE looks unstoppable against Amare. He makes guys who have business looking even good, look great. That in my opinion is what the difference is. If a superstar who can't be stopped by anyone else is lighting you up it's one thing, but to be lit up by every tom, dick and harry you're matched up against is another.

Although Amare has faired better at the PF position versus Center. Someone posted the difference in PA and FG% when comparing his guarding centers versus PF. All I am saying is that I could make the same argument against PF that play Amare every single night. He usually gets platooned.

Why doesn't the media call just about every PF and center for that matter who plays against Amare lazy? It just isn't logical. Amare needs to improve on defense no doubt. Just don't want to hear he is a bad rebounder any more from bonehead media. That and start pointing out how bad other players defense is when guarding Amare. Fair is fair.

It is tied to his refusal to block out, plain and simple. Blocking out, rebounding and defending doesn't get you on Sportcenter, so he doesn't do it. That's all there is to it.

First that's total crap. Second since when is top 10 in rebounding considered "not doing it".?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Although Amare has faired better at the PF position versus Center.

could he have fared any worse?

Someone posted the difference in PA and FG% when comparing his guarding centers versus PF.

I'm curious to see those numbers. Not because I don't believe you, just because I haven't seen them and maybe my perception of him is still rooted in the beyond pathetic D he was playing when matched up against Cs.

All I am saying is that I could make the same argument against PF that play Amare every single night. He usually gets platooned.

Why doesn't the media call just about every PF and center for that matter who plays against Amare lazy? It just isn't logical. Amare needs to improve on defense no doubt. Just don't want to hear he is a bad rebounder any more from bonehead media. That and start pointing out how bad other players defense is when guarding Amare. Fair is fair.

The media doesn't call those guys out because a) Amare is an acknowledged unstoppable force who gets his points against anyone and everyone and b) because there's very few players in the league with as much skill/talent/athleticism as Amare. Amare's supposed to have those huge games., thus it's not out of the norm and attention isn't drawn to his defender. What's not supposed to happen is that every guy he goes up against does better than what they usually do. That's why he gets the criticism. I don't see why you don't understand that.

 

[Cheesebeef]

amare also seems to be a feast or famine rebounder which is what bothers me as well. I don't know what it's like for other rebounders in the top ten because I don't care about them enough to scrutinize what they do, but it's like he either gets 13 boards or 6 boards. It's the inconsistency which is what chaffes my hide. I mean, in the last 15 games, he's been in single digit rebounds 10 times. That shouldn't happen. Anyone know where he ranks in double doubles this season?

 

[Covert Rain]

I'm curious to see those numbers. Not because I don't believe you, just because I haven't seen them and maybe my perception of him is still rooted in the beyond pathetic D he was playing when matched up against Cs.

I will try and find the post and repost it here. It was either here or over at RealGM. I didn't do the research so I can't speak to it's accuracy.

The media doesn't call those guys out because a) Amare is an acknowledged unstoppable force who gets his points against anyone and everyone and b) because there's very few players in the league with as much skill/talent/athleticism as Amare. Amare's supposed to have those huge games., thus it's not out of the norm and attention isn't drawn to his defender. What's not supposed to happen is that every guy he goes up against does better than what they usually do. That's why he gets the criticism. I don't see why you don't understand that.

First off I think your steering the debate in the wrong direction. I have acknowledged Amare's deficiencies in defense. I don't even mind hearing the sometimes one sided arguments in that regard. The premise of my original argument was based more so on the ridiculous, often quoted and unsubstantiated view that Amare doesn't rebound despite being in the top 10.

His issues with defense was really just another example how often Amare is targeted with his deficiencies yet similar stars a la Duncan can guard him and yet are not criticized for their defense after a game in which he lights them up. It's the Superstar syndrome. I get that. However, this debate really wasn't about defense. So I don't think you understand how illogical that argument sounds especially when they are calling out a player who is top 10 in rebounding among PF then critisized for not being a good rebounder.

If you want to criticize his inconsistency in rebounding fine. However, that is not what the media is saying (a la Charles). That's not what certain fans are saying. That's the point. I have never claimed Amare is a top 10 defender. So criticize away. Just don't tell me the guy is not a good rebounder. Inconsistent or not he is still in the top 10. I would buy however that Amare should be top 5 if not for some more consistency. Now that is a logical argument.