Amare: Extension in the works

[mojorizen7]

Pay the man! Amare is a beast.

Anyway scenario that could have us getting Joe Johnson back next year?

J-Rich, Barbosa and Clark in a sign and trade or something?

No teasing!

Something tells me that a Nash/JJ backcourt in 2010 wouldn't have enough dribbles & holding of the ball to go around between them.

Love me some JJ though...

 

[overseascardfan]

Yeah, if Amare continues this level of play into the playoffs, how can you not give him the max?

Especially when he is the only big FA we have a shot at signing.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Especially when he is the only big FA we have a shot at signing.

Exactly. He's a risk, but other than Wade, Lebron, Howard, Durant and Melo, there aren't exactly a ton of guys that scream max deal. If we don't give it to him, someone will.

 

[Black Jesus]

Exactly. He's a risk, but other than Wade, Lebron, Howard, Durant and Melo, there aren't exactly a ton of guys that scream max deal. If we don't give it to him, someone will.

Amare>Howard

 

[SirStefan32]

Amare>Howard

Wow. Amare is not even close to Howard. Howard is on a whole different level than Amare. I like how well Amare's been playing recently, but to say he is better than Howard, or even on the same level as Howard is just wrong.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Wow. Amare is not even close to Howard. Howard is on a whole different level than Amare. I like how well Amare's been playing recently, but to say he is better than Howard, or even on the same level as Howard is just wrong.

Amare, playing like he is now, is better than Howard. The question is, can Amare keep healthy and motivated.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Amare, playing like he is now, is better than Howard.

no he's not. Bottom line, Defense wins championships and Dwight can completely control a game, against the elite of the elite with his D alone, not to mention a solid Offensive game. Amare can't do that.

 

[SirStefan32]

no he's not. Bottom line, Defense wins championships and Dwight can completely control a game, against the elite of the elite with his D alone, not to mention a solid Offensive game. Amare can't do that.

Exactly. Howard is the best defensive player in the league who also has a good (not great, but good) offensive game. Amare is a very good offensive player who is, at the very best, a bellow average defender.

 

[Chaplin]

Dwight Howard is a far superior defensive player, but make no mistake, Amare Stoudemire is twice the offensive player Dwight Howard is.

But championships are won with defense and until Amare improves that area, he'll be 2nd to Howard.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

no he's not. Bottom line, Defense wins championships and Dwight can completely control a game, against the elite of the elite with his D alone, not to mention a solid Offensive game. Amare can't do that.

You completely overrate Howard's defense...he's a great defender, but I certainly can't remember many games I remember him completely controlling with his defense. In addition, considering his size and skill, his offensive game is extremely limited.

Amare is a far superior offensive player, and can carry a team offensively. Howard cannot do the same. To say Amare now isn't close to Howard is ridiculous.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You completely overrate Howard's defense...he's a great defender, but I certainly can't remember many games I remember him completely controlling with his defense. In addition, considering his size and skill, his offensive game is extremely limited.

Amare is a far superior offensive player, and can carry a team offensively. Howard cannot do the same. To say Amare now isn't close to Howard is ridiculous.

I don't think so. I don't think you'd find any GM in the league who would even for half a second consider taking Amare over Howard, even if he kept playing at his current level because he's a bad defensive player and I think it's been proven ad naseum that NO ONE can carry a team offensively in the playoffs if they play bad defense. On the other hand, if you can control a game Defensively, even if your O is mediocre, you can control an entire series... or do we need to go back to Amare's blazing performance against the Spurs which ended up with us getting our asses kicked back in 2005?

 

[Cheesebeef]

You completely overrate Howard's defense...he's a great defender, but I certainly can't remember many games I remember him completely controlling with his defense. In addition, considering his size and skill, his offensive game is extremely limited.

Amare is a far superior offensive player, and can carry a team offensively. Howard cannot do the same.

and to say Howard can't carry a team offensively isn't really true either. He's not asked to do so, but the dude averaged 26 ppg on 60% shooting and 3 assists per game to catapult the heavy underdog Magic past the Cavs into the Finals. And the Cavs inability to match up with him and need to double him then opened up all their three point shooter which killed them as well. Oh and his 13 rebounds per game and shutting down the lane didn't hurt in that series either.

 

[BC867]

Howard is a Center. Amar'e is a Power Forward.

Points and rebounds, Howard is 17.7-13.2, Amar'e is 22.5-8.8.

That's a slight advantage to Howard, plus a big advantage on defense.

Still, Center vs. Power Forward -- apples and oranges.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I don't think so. I don't think you'd find any GM in the league who would even for half a second consider taking Amare over Howard

Well of course. Amare's health issues are a giant red flag. Having said that, I truly believe Amare at his best is better than Howard at his best.

even if he kept playing at his current level because he's a bad defensive player

Hyperbole, especially with the way he's playing now. Amare is not a great defender even now, but I'd say right now he's at least an average defender.

even if your O is mediocre, you can control an entire series...

I've seen Howard in many series, and can't remember him ever controlling a series.

do we need to go back to Amare's blazing performance against the Spurs which ended up with us getting our asses kicked back in 2005?

There were plenty of reasons that we didn't win the series in 05, none of which had anything to do with Amare. How soon you forget, after that series there was legit talk about Amare being a top 3 NBA talent, including Mr. Simmons, someone that many consider a pretty strong basketball authority.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/050701&num=0

 

[Cheesebeef]

I've seen Howard in many series, and can't remember him ever controlling a series.

then you must have missed him leading his underdog Magic to a huge upset over the 66 win Cavs team to get into the Finals last year. Unless for some reason you don't think averaging 26 ppg on 60% shooting, 3 assists per game, while forcing the Cavs to double him, which opened up all their three point shooters, making them a matchup nightmare wasn't controlling a series. Oh and his 13 rebounds per game and shutting down the lane didn't hurt in that series either.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

then you must have missed him leading his underdog Magic to a huge upset over the 66 win Cavs team to get into the Finals last year. Unless for some reason you don't think averaging 26 ppg on 60% shooting, 3 assists per game, while forcing the Cavs to double him, which opened up all their three point shooters, making them a matchup nightmare wasn't controlling a series. Oh and his 13 rebounds per game and shutting down the lane didn't hurt in that series either.

Howard had a wonderful supporting cast in the series and Lebron was surrounded by garbage. Swap out Howard and Lebron, and Lebron would have won easily.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Howard had a wonderful supporting cast in the series and Lebron was surrounded by garbage. Swap out Howard and Lebron, and Lebron would have won easily.

a wonderful supporting cast? He had Rafer Alston as his freaking point guard and a rookie SG who did nothing this year away from Howard. That's about as awful a back-court as one could have. As to the rest of his guys... how effective has Turk has looked without him this year? And how much help did he get on D from his completely pathetic defensive front court. Sorry man, but that's just a weak answer. All those three point shooters would be useless if there wasn't a player who dominated double and triple teams, not only with points but by being able to swing the ball out to guys who were wide open solely because of his presence.


A wonderful supporting cast. If that was the case, why were the Cavs such favorites in that series?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Howard had a wonderful supporting cast in the series and Lebron was surrounded by garbage. Swap out Howard and Lebron, and Lebron would have won easily.

wait, I thought we were talking about Howard v. Amare? What the hell does swapping LeBron for Howard prove in the Amare discussion? A) I've already shown above that Howard's "wonderful" supporting cast consisted of probably the worst back court in Finals history and the softest front court in Finals history, and showed that without Howard, most of those "wonderful" players have hit hard times this year.

But let's get back on track.Let me ask you this. If you swapped out Amare for Howard, do you think he would have taken that team to the Finals?

 

[ASUCHRIS]

wait, I thought we were talking about Howard v. Amare? What the hell does swapping LeBron for Howard prove in the Amare discussion? A) I've already shown above that Howard's "wonderful" supporting cast consisted of probably the worst back court in Finals history and the softest front court in Finals history, and showed that without Howard, most of those "wonderful" players have hit hard times this year.

But let's get back on track.Let me ask you this. If you swapped out Amare for Howard, do you think he would have taken that team to the Finals?

You've continued to lead this conversation further and further off track. My main point was simply refuting that Amare right now "isn't even close" to Howard. It's simply not true. Amare at his best is far stronger offensively than Howard, and obviously weaker defensively. "Isn't even close" is just wrong.

Say what you want about Howard's supporting cast, but it was tailor made to benefit him, and while you continue to rip his back court, perhaps you forgot how effective Pietrus was throughout the playoffs.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You've continued to lead this conversation further and further off track.

how so? You said Howard's never carried a team in the playoffs... I presented an example of him doing so and then you for some reason decided to make this a conversation about Lebron versus Howard. That seemed to be to be getting off track, no?

However, even after you did so, I still tried to bring it back to Howard v. Amare by asking if you thought the Magic would be as good if they had Amare instead of Howard but instead of trying to get back on track and answer that question, you simply said the above which puzzled me. So, I'll ask again, do you believe that if last year's Orlando team had this Amare playing they could have beat Cleveland. If so, why?

My main point was simply refuting that Amare right now "isn't even close" to Howard. It's simply not true. Amare at his best is far stronger offensively than Howard, and obviously weaker defensively. "Isn't even close" is just wrong.

I disagree. Amare may be a great one on one scoring machine, but a) against larger teams he struggles and b) he's got tunnel vision and doesn't command double teams the way Howard does. You keep belittling Howard O and, granted as a one on one scorer he's not anything close to Amare, but he has a HUGE impact in the middle of the lane, which opens the floor for the rest of his players. An offense can run incredibly effectively through Howard, as it has for years, and at a high level where he can either get dunks, draw fouls or command doubles which allows him to kick it out.

So, with both players, you can run effective offenses through them. However, Amare in no way shape or form can anchor a defense. Not even close. You say I over-rate Howard's D, but how can I possibly do that? The guy cleans glass like no one else, blocks more shots than anyone else and singlehandedly anchors a team with nothing even close resembling a power forward in the starting lineup. The guy is the most dominant defensive presence in the game and it's his ability to be the centerpiece offensively and defensively which is what puts him head and shoulders above Amare.

Say what you want about Howard's supporting cast, but it was tailor made to benefit him, and while you continue to rip his back court, perhaps you forgot how effective Pietrus was throughout the playoffs.

Even throwing Pietrus is there and an Alston, Lee, Pietrus back court is still woeful and probably the worst in Finals history... and how successful would Pietrus be without getting wide-open looks? We'll probably find out once he's gone from the team, just like we have Lee, Alston and even Turk to a degree.

 

[Black Jesus]

how so? You said Howard's never carried a team in the playoffs... I presented an example of him doing so and then you for some reason decided to make this a conversation about Lebron versus Howard. That seemed to be to be getting off track, no?

However, even after you did so, I still tried to bring it back to Howard v. Amare by asking if you thought the Magic would be as good if they had Amare instead of Howard but instead of trying to get back on track and answer that question, you simply said the above which puzzled me. So, I'll ask again, do you believe that if last year's Orlando team had this Amare playing they could have beat Cleveland. If so, why?




I disagree. Amare may be a great one on one scoring machine, but a) against larger teams he struggles and b) he's got tunnel vision and doesn't command double teams the way Howard does. You keep belittling Howard O and, granted as a one on one scorer he's not anything close to Amare, but he has a HUGE impact in the middle of the lane, which opens the floor for the rest of his players. An offense can run incredibly effectively through Howard, as it has for years, and at a high level where he can either get dunks, draw fouls or command doubles which allows him to kick it out.

So, with both players, you can run effective offenses through them. However, Amare in no way shape or form can anchor a defense. Not even close. You say I over-rate Howard's D, but how can I possibly do that? The guy cleans glass like no one else, blocks more shots than anyone else and singlehandedly anchors a team with nothing even close resembling a power forward in the starting lineup. The guy is the most dominant defensive presence in the game and it's his ability to be the centerpiece offensively and defensively which is what puts him head and shoulders above Amare.



Even throwing Pietrus is there and an Alston, Lee, Pietrus back court is still woeful and probably the worst in Finals history... and how successful would Pietrus be without getting wide-open looks? We'll probably find out once he's gone from the team, just like we have Lee, Alston and even Turk to a degree.

You are forgetting that Rashard Lewis and Turkaglu were lights out in the playoffs as well as Pietris. Those are long wings that can shoot.

Rafer Alston is not bad either.

Lets also not forget that Howard was being covered by Z. Thats like asking Nash to cover Tyreke Evans.

 

[Chaplin]

The fact that Howard was covered by Ilgauskus is a big thing. It's a fact that Howard is a one-dimensional offensive player. But he is VERY effective in that one dimension.

Howard scoring 26ppg in a playoff series tells me one thing: the Cavs were AWFUL at trying to draw fouls.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You are forgetting that Rashard Lewis and Turkaglu were lights out in the playoffs as well as Pietris. Those are long wings that can shoot.

I'm not forgetting them at all... I actually made a point of talking about them how it's much easier to be lights out when you're shooting WIDE OPEN threes because the Cavs couldn't guard Howard to save their life with one person.

And I'm also not forgetting them on the defensive end where both are complete and utter sieves, who's impact was blunted by Howard's dominance down low no matter who's next to him.

Rafer Alston is not bad either.

yeah, he is. how's he doing this year without Howard?

Lets also not forget that Howard was being covered by Z. Thats like asking Nash to cover Tyreke Evans.

That statement on it's own does have some validity, but how does that take away from the fact that he did in fact dominate that series, which Chris says he's never seen him do?

 

[Cheesebeef]

The fact that Howard was covered by Ilgauskus is a big thing. It's a fact that Howard is a one-dimensional offensive player. But he is VERY effective in that one dimension.

I'm not debating that. Just pointing out that he was able to dominate in a huge series at both ends of the court.

 

[elindholm]

Guys, give it up. Cheesebeef is right on this one. The only people trying to argue that Stoudemire and Howard are in the same echelon are Suns homers. Howard was the pivotal player in the Magic's upset win over the Cavs. Call it "dominating" or not, it doesn't matter. He was the focal point of the offense and the anchor of the defense.

When Stoudemire leads a team deep into the playoffs, we'll talk. So far, he has been to the WCF only once, and that was when Marion had to do the dirty work for him after he conveniently fouled out at the end of Game 6 against Dallas. For all of his statistical brilliance against the Spurs in the postseason, he has notched only a small handful of victories against them -- and two of those were back when the likes of Stephon Marbury and Jake Voskuhl were the ones hitting game-winning shots.