Amare on the block.

[greensborohill]

http://dallasbasketballdotcom.yuku.com/topic/23228

 

[jlove]

http://dallasbasketballdotcom.yuku.com/topic/23228

Now here's an IDIOTIC post if I've ever seen one. Dallas gets more in return for giving up Howard than the Suns get for giving up Amare......

From the DB.com website above..a poster posted this 3-team deal




Grant Hill is optional if you've got another player that works salarywise

Phoenix Suns


Incoming Players

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Josh Howard
Salary: $9,945,000 Years Remaining: 2
PTS: 17.9 REB: 5.0 AST: 1.7 PER: 16.21

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Raef LaFrentz
Salary: $12,722,500 Years Remaining: 1

Outgoing Players: Matt Barnes, Grant Hill, Louis Amundson, Amare Stoudemire

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Dallas Mavericks



Incoming Players

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Martell Webster
Salary: $3,771,133 Years Remaining: 5
PTS: 0.0 REB: 0.0 AST: 0.0 PER: -8.51

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Matt Barnes
Salary: $797,581 Years Remaining: 1
PTS: 9.9 REB: 5.3 AST: 2.0 PER: 11.55

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LaMarcus Aldridge
Salary: $4,631,400 Years Remaining: 2
PTS: 17.7 REB: 6.9 AST: 1.9 PER: 18.98

Outgoing Players: Josh Howard, Jerry Stackhouse

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Portland Trail Blazers



Incoming Players

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Jerry Stackhouse
Salary: $7,000,000 Years Remaining: 2
PTS: 5.3 REB: 1.9 AST: 1.1 PER: 4.74

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Grant Hill
Salary: $1,976,400 Years Remaining: 1
PTS: 10.8 REB: 4.8 AST: 1.9 PER: 14.20

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Louis Amundson
Salary: $797,581 Years Remaining: 1
PTS: 3.4 REB: 3.1 AST: 0.3 PER: 13.79

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Amare Stoudemire
Salary: $15,070,550 Years Remaining: 3
PTS: 21.0 REB: 8.1 AST: 2.0 PER: 20.56

Outgoing Players: Martell Webster, Raef LaFrentz, LaMarcus Aldridge

 

[elindholm]

http://dallasbasketballdotcom.yuku.com/topic/23228

LMAO at the three-way where the Suns give up Stoudemire, Hill, and Barnes for Josh Freaking Howard. Damn, are all Mavericks fans that stupid? Just sayin'.

Seriously, greensborotroll, we can track down nonsense fantasy "proposals" on the internet all by ourselves if we like. Your help isn't needed.

 

[TBaslim]

That's an amazingly stupid trade proposal...

 

[Diamondback Jay]

There are people here who actually prefer Chris ****ing Wilcox to Amare?????

You think Amare's bad at d? Wait till Wilcox comes to town, you'll be begging for Amare back.

 

[TBaslim]

I think the idea is that Wilcox is an expiring contract, and you take him to get a young stud like Durant or Westbrook and a draft pick. He'd be gone after this year.

 

[Folster]

There are people here who actually prefer Chris ****ing Wilcox to Amare?????

You think Amare's bad at d? Wait till Wilcox comes to town, you'll be begging for Amare back.

Not if Westbrook and our 2010 pick come with him.

 

[SO91]

There are people here who actually prefer Chris ****ing Wilcox to Amare?????

You think Amare's bad at d? Wait till Wilcox comes to town, you'll be begging for Amare back.

Wilcox is not being included in proposed trades to replace Amare, but because he's an expiring contract. The same reason LaFrentz is valuable for Portland right now.

 

[DeAnna]

Amare is one of the worst defensive PF in the league, one of the worst in rebounding and #13 in turnovers. That has been consistent no matter who has coached Amare.

Wait, weren't you the one saying repeatedly 2 years ago that Amare would blossom once he moved to the PF position? So that he wouldn't have to guard centers?

Looks like he has digressed. Maybe he'll want to be reunited with D'Antoni

They should trade Shaq.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Wilcox is light years ahead of Amare in position defense. He also rebounds/minute better. But putting him next to Shaq would be a glaring issue imo. They both play 2 feet from the basket.

 

[Covert Rain]

Wait, weren't you the one saying repeatedly 2 years ago that Amare would blossom once he moved to the PF position? So that he wouldn't have to guard centers?

Looks like he has digressed. Maybe he'll want to be reunited with D'Antoni

They should trade Shaq.

Negative. I said Amare would get better defensively if they moved him from Center to PF. The stats say Amare is better defensively then he was last year. So, what I said in fact came true. Amare was worse defensively under D'Antoni. So pairing him up with D'Antoni would only make his offensive numbers go back up. Offense is not what Amare's problem is.

Also, despite Amare improving on last season statistically on defense, when you comparing him to his counterparts he is still terrible. So, despite improving...he has not improved nearly enough.

Our 2 best defended positions on the court are SF and Center. We were dead last in the NBA when Amare was our center. Post Shaq #15.

They should keep Shaq and trade Amare.

http://dallasbasketballdotcom.yuku.com/topic/23228

Is LaMarcus Aldridge really an upgrade? I don't see it defensively or otherwise.

PPG Allowed (per 48):
Amare - 19.0 (PF), 19.2 (C)
Aldridge - 19.5 (PF), 20.4 (C)

PPG
Amare - 21
LaMarcus - 17.7

RPG
Amare - 8.1
LaMarcus - 6.9

APG
Amare - 2.0
LaMarcus - 1.9

BPG
Amare - 1.1
LaMarcus - 0.9

SPG
Amare - 1.0
LaMarcus - 1.0

FG%
Amare - .537
LaMarcus - .484

FT%
Amare - .832
LaMarcus - .751

 

[jlove]

Negative. I said Amare would get better defensively if they moved him from Center to PF. The stats say Amare is better defensively then he was last year. So, what I said in fact came true. Amare was worse defensively under D'Antoni. So pairing him up with D'Antoni would only make his offensive numbers go back up. Offense is not what Amare's problem is.

Also, despite Amare improving on last season statistically on defense, when you comparing him to his counterparts he is still terrible. So, despite improving...he has not improved nearly enough.

Our 2 best defended positions on the court are SF and Center. We were dead last in the NBA when Amare was our center. Post Shaq #15.

They should keep Shaq and trade Amare.




Is LaMarcus Aldridge really an upgrade? I don't see it defensively or otherwise.

PPG Allowed (per 48):
Amare - 19.0 (PF), 19.2 (C)
Aldridge - 19.5 (PF), 20.4 (C)

PPG
Amare - 21
LaMarcus - 17.7

RPG
Amare - 8.1
LaMarcus - 6.9

APG
Amare - 2.0
LaMarcus - 1.9

BPG
Amare - 1.1
LaMarcus - 0.9

SPG
Amare - 1.0
LaMarcus - 1.0

FG%
Amare - .537
LaMarcus - .484

FT%
Amare - .832
LaMarcus - .751

Ok. Now take those stats and add in the money they are both being paid. I'm a huge Amare fan, however, If we can get at least Aldridge with Bayless or Fernandez, I'm all for it.

 

[elindholm]

Just say No to Aldridge. The Suns need to do better.

 

[Covert Rain]

Just say No to Aldridge. The Suns need to do better.

+1

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Just say No to Aldridge. The Suns need to do better.

They may need to, but can they? Amare doesn't do anything other than score, is a diva, has 2 knees with no cartilage, and can opt out after next year. Not exactly high value at this point.

 

[nowagimp]

Negative. I said Amare would get better defensively if they moved him from Center to PF. The stats say Amare is better defensively then he was last year. So, what I said in fact came true. Amare was worse defensively under D'Antoni. So pairing him up with D'Antoni would only make his offensive numbers go back up. Offense is not what Amare's problem is.

Also, despite Amare improving on last season statistically on defense, when you comparing him to his counterparts he is still terrible. So, despite improving...he has not improved nearly enough.

Our 2 best defended positions on the court are SF and Center. We were dead last in the NBA when Amare was our center. Post Shaq #15.

Oh here it is

06-07 opp center PER 17.8
08-09 opp center PER 17.7

considering the slower pace, this years defense against the center may be worse, but is likely not better at all than the suspension team.

The suspension team(06-07), probably the last SSOL team the suns had, amare defended C at 17 PER, KT defended C (and PF) at 15 PER. I know that team was better than 15th in the NBA at defending the center position. I remember the suns had one of the best scoring defenses against the center position that year. Because scoring is naturally higher in faster paced games, I dont think any improvement in amares defense over 06-07 season is obvious. Last year the suns were killed in the first 15 games when they tried to integrate shaq in the defense, and hill was out for a good part of the season(best help defender, only decent swing defender). I dont think anything at all is obvious here, at least statistically.

there really is no point in keeping shaq if the suns cant win now, no point at all. I dont think they have a shot even with a trade, the boat is a leaker and its old. It might be the suns cant hold on to amare in 2010 anyway and he should be dealt for that reason. But the suns are done it appears and a well strategized(probably not possible with this management) but controlled blow up is the best course. If I want to see good basketball, I cant see that in PHX anymore, its gone.

 

[Covert Rain]

The suspension team(06-07), probably the last SSOL team the suns had, amare defended C at 17 PER, KT defended C (and PF) at 15 PER. I know that team was better than 15th in the NBA at defending the center position. I remember the suns had one of the best scoring defenses against the center position that year. Because scoring is naturally higher in faster paced games, I dont think any improvement in amares defense over 06-07 season is obvious. Last year the suns were killed in the first 15 games when they tried to integrate shaq in the defense, and hill was out for a good part of the season(best help defender). I dont think anything at all is obvious here, at least statistically.

Kurt played some pretty good defense at the Center position and PF that year both. Amare never has been and never will be a good defender. I think also Kurt was more mobile then Shaq which meant he could cover for Amare more often.

Notice also that when Shaq is not in the game the paint opens up like a turn style. Amare can't guard the paint. When you look at the Center position, when we had Kurt and Shaq both, things in the paint looked better. When Amare is out on an island or depended on to play center he is exposed.

If we got a good PF in here who could player some defense and rebound....then there is a reason to keep Shaq. However, if your going to blow up the team, trade Amare, trade Nash etc... I agree...there is no reason to keep Shaq.

 

[Andrew]

I STILL don't see this thing happening, just a feeling...

 

[nowagimp]

Here are the stats for both players:

Amare 2006-2007
Allowed 21.1 PPG, (his PER was 19.2)

http://www.82games.com/0607/playoffs/06PHO12C.HTM

Kurt Thomas 2006-2007
Allowed 20.3 PPG at Forward
Allowed 23.3 PPG at Center

http://www.82games.com/0607/playoffs/06PHO10C.HTM

Contrary to popular belief, Kurt was not a great defender on this team. He played tough defense. There is a difference.

Shaq has brought more defense to the Center position then any center we have had in recent memory.

Not interested in the playoff PER(your links are to those), they dont have the common opponents. The reg season PER includes all teams with a much bigger sample than the few games of the playoffs.

As a TEAM as I stated above the 06-07 team defended at 178, this years at 17.7. PPG is misleading as it is more an indicator of pace than say FG defense.

Or you could just use the player PERs shaq 17.0 this year and KT's PER was 15.4 in '06-07. KT also rarely got double team help, which helps the other positions in their defense since they dont have to run around all the time and be out of position on defense.

 

[elindholm]

Overall team defense improved with Thomas in the lineup, because he made it easier for the other players to do their jobs (or at least come close). Defensive rebounding was also much better. Yes, Duncan scored reliably against Thomas, but at least Thomas made him work for it, and the Suns weren't giving up constant layups to Parker and Ginobili.

There's a reason that, a year and a half later, Thomas is still a valued defensive big man for one of the league's best teams.

 

[Covert Rain]

Not interested in the playoff PER(your links are to those), they dont have the common opponents. The reg season PER includes all teams with a much bigger sample than the few games of the playoffs.

As a TEAM as I stated above the 06-07 team defended at 178, this years at 17.7. PPG is misleading as it is more an indicator of pace than say FG defense.

Or you could just use the player PERs shaq 17.0 this year and KT's PER was 15.4 in '06-07. KT also rarely got double team help, which helps the other positions in their defense since they dont have to run around all the time and be out of position on defense.

We were 8th worst in the NBA at allowing PPG that season. We were scoring 110 but giving up 102.9. Overall defensive rank 28th. We were 5th worst team in the NBA at Points in the paint that year (we allowed 42.3 Per Game). Adding Shaq has bumped us up to 15. Say what you want, we are defending the paint better then we ever have with Kurt or just Amare at Center.

Just like this team has covered Nash's defense, they have done the same with Amare. First it was Kurt and now it is Shaq. You want to argue that Shaq doesn't cover up for Amare's horrible defense as much as Kurt...OK, I will bite.

 

[nowagimp]

Overall team defense improved with Thomas in the lineup, because he made it easier for the other players to do their jobs (or at least come close). Defensive rebounding was also much better. Yes, Duncan scored reliably against Thomas, but at least Thomas made him work for it, and the Suns weren't giving up constant layups to Parker and Ginobili.

There's a reason that, a year and a half later, Thomas is still a valued defensive big man for one of the league's best teams.

No kidding, gregg popovich doesnt play light scoring players in his rotation unless they bring valuable defense. KT is highly regarded in the NBA as an excellent position defender, he can even limit a guy like shaq from getting to his post up spots. The suns plan that year was not to double TD, and let the defenders concentrate on manu and TP. TD is the most dangerous when he is passing the ball, running the offense, and that happens when you double him.

In the 06-07 suspension season the nuggets defended KT with double teams and held his scoring down, but his assists went up alot. Ginobilli, Finley and Parker killed then in a noncompetitive series(4-1). Against the suns his assts were low(<2 a game) and his scoring was 5ppg more, but ginobilli was tamed and parker was much better controlled and finley didnt go off as he was not left open since the suns didnt double. The suns had tied up the series 2-2 in san antonio and got home court back, before the suspensions.

 

[cly2tw]

With Nash remaining and Amare gone, we are officially going to become the Phoenix Clippers with tons of picks, young talents, and expiring contracts but no competitive team.

 

[Covert Rain]

With Nash remaining and Amare gone, we are officially going to become the Phoenix Clippers with tons of picks, young talents, and expiring contracts but no competitive team.

How competitive is this team now with those guys? I mean if we have no shot at winning a title...I wouldn't call that competitive.

 

[cly2tw]

Overall team defense improved with Thomas in the lineup, because he made it easier for the other players to do their jobs (or at least come close). Defensive rebounding was also much better. Yes, Duncan scored reliably against Thomas, but at least Thomas made him work for it, and the Suns weren't giving up constant layups to Parker and Ginobili.

There's a reason that, a year and a half later, Thomas is still a valued defensive big man for one of the league's best teams.

Looking back to that season, one can only wonder what would have been had DA actually used Kurt in regular season and the the first series, instead of freezing him on the bench all season long until the second game vs. Spurs.