Amare Ought to be Embarassed

[Cheesebeef]

Why did he shrink for half of the season? I don't think he shrinks under pressure...

agree to disagree.

 

[Covert Rain]

Nuff said... you're talking about bench players... Amare's our "SUPERSTAR". He's held to higher standard. Huge road games in the playoffs aren't won with your bench or supporting players. They're won by your superstars and Amare proved once again in this series, we really have only one of those, and he's 36 years old and can't bring it every night like he used to.

It's not? Because I have heard over and over again from guys that have won rings that you have to have role players on your team to win a titles. You need stars and role players to do their job. LeBron is proof of that.

Oh...and many of you have said Amare is not a Superstar. So he is or he isn't? Make up your mind. Many of you have said numerous times he is not a Superstar. You can't call him a Superstar to boost your bashing.

 

[illone]

Suns load up on Kobe and he gets 30 8 and 8 no matter what we throw at him.

How come Amare can't get 20 and 15 no matter what THEY throw at HIM?

:whoknows:

 

[Covert Rain]

Suns load up on Kobe and he gets 30 8 and 8 no matter what we throw at him.

How come Amare can't get 20 and 15 no matter what THEY throw at HIM?

:whoknows:

Because he is not a Superstar like Kobe.....that's unless you are on this forum and need to call him one to boost your argument.

 

[illone]

Because he is not a Superstar like Kobe.....that's unless you are on this forum and need to call him one to boost your argument.

Then why is he paid like one, or want to be paid like one?

 

[Covert Rain]

Then why is he paid like one, or want to be paid like one?

He is not paid like one right now. Of-course he wants max. I want Bill Gates salary.

Besides, max contracts are not just for Superstars. Should they be is another argument. DEMAND for certain types of players that are in shortage creates a market in which players who probably shouldn't be max players...end up being max players.

Market dictates who gets the max contracts...not if your a Superstar or not.

 

[illone]

He is not paid like one right now. Of-course he wants max. I want Bill Gates salary.

Besides, max contracts are not just for Superstars. Should they be is another argument. DEMAND for certain types of players that are in shortage creates a market in which players who probably shouldn't be max players...end up being max players.

Market dictates who gets the max contracts...not if your a Superstar or not.

I dont know many GMs who will pay a guy max contract without getting max effort/return from that player. Maybe Isaiah Thomas, but isn't he working in college ball now?

 

[Renz]

I dont know many GMs who will pay a guy max contract without getting max effort/return from that player. Maybe Isaiah Thomas, but isn't he working in college ball now?

Some team that is desperate to make a splash, like New York or New Jersey, will offer Stoudemire a max contract.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Some team that is desperate to make a splash, like New York or New Jersey, will offer Stoudemire a max contract.

yup.

 

[Covert Rain]

Some team that is desperate to make a splash, like New York or New Jersey, will offer Stoudemire a max contract.

Exactly. That is called "the market". Someone will be desperate enough or there will be a shortage of Forwards/Centers and Amare is a legit scorer. If the market says he is worth it then that's that.

 

[tobiazz]

It's not? Because I have heard over and over again from guys that have won rings that you have to have role players on your team to win a titles. You need stars and role players to do their job. LeBron is proof of that.

Oh...and many of you have said Amare is not a Superstar. So he is or he isn't? Make up your mind. Many of you have said numerous times he is not a Superstar. You can't call him a Superstar to boost your bashing.

Role players are necessary, and they must perform to expectations, but they should not be expected to have to outperform the team's stars.

Amare is averaging 6.8 reb in the playoffs. He is rebounding less per minute than Channing Frye and Grant Hill. That is stunningly bad. His "boxing out" so that others can grab rebounds is no excuse for such a low number. He is probably not earning his (non-max) contract right now while most of his teammates are earning theirs. Grant Hill must be the best value in these playoffs after Rondo.

 

[tobiazz]

Amare will almost certainly get the max because I think there are more max slots available than max contracts this off-season.

I think the only way the Suns can get something in return for him, without keeping and overpaying him, is to send him to a team that has cap room for one less star than they would like so they would be willing to send contract filler plus prospects in a S&T for Amare (see Miami).

I'll can the trade talk while the Suns are still in the playoffs.

 

[Covert Rain]

Role players are necessary, and they must perform to expectations, but they should not be expected to have to outperform the team's stars.

I never said they did and the bench didn't show up in the 1st half and they didn't show up at times in the first 2 games in L.A. You said it.....they should perform to expectations. They didn't.

Amare is averaging 6.8 reb in the playoffs. He is rebounding less per minute than Channing Frye and Grant Hill. That is stunningly bad. His "boxing out" so that others can grab rebounds is no excuse for such a low number. He is probably not earning his (non-max) contract right now while most of his teammates are earning theirs. Grant Hill must be the best value in these playoffs after Rondo.

I also don't disagree with your assessment of his rebounding either and I don't make any excuses for his lack thereof.

 

[Cheesebeef]

He is not paid like one right now.

what are you talking about? He signed a MAX contract extension back in 2005:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2180248

"The deal is the maximum allowed under the NBA collective bargaining agreement for the forward who jumped from high school to stardom."

 

[Irish]

Top 30 NBA Salaries http://hoopshype.com/salaries.htm

So would someone please define which players have "max" contracts. considering this is before the bidding war this summer?

1. Tracy McGrady New York - $23,239,561

2. Kobe Bryant LA Lakers - $23,034,375

3. Jermaine O'Neal Miami - $22,995,000

4. Tim Duncan San Antonio - $22,183,218

5. Shaquille O'Neal Cleveland - $20,000,000

6. Dirk Nowitzki Dallas - $19,795,714

-. Paul Pierce Boston - $19,795,712

8. Ray Allen Boston - $19,766,860

9. Rashard Lewis Orlando - $18,876,000

10. Michael Redd Milwaukee - $17,040,000

11. Pau Gasol LA Lakers - $16,451,250

-. Andrei Kirilenko Utah - $16,451,250

13. Kevin Garnett Boston - $16,400,000

14. Yao Ming Houston - $16,378,325

-. Amare Stoudemire Phoenix - $16,378,325

16. Vince Carter Orlando - $16,300,000

17. Gilbert Arenas Washington - $16,192,080

18. Zach Randolph Memphis $16,000,000

19. Carmelo Anthony Denver - $15,779,912

-. LeBron James Cleveland - $15,779,912

-. Chris Bosh Toronto - $15,779,912

-. Dwyane Wade Miami - $15,779,912

23. Kenyon Martin Denver - $15,363,636

24. Dwight Howard Orlando - $15,133,800

25. Joe Johnson Atlanta _ $14,976,754

26. Elton Brand Philadelphia - $14,858,471

27. Predrag Stojakovic New Orleans - $14,202,000

28. Richard Jefferson San Antonio - $14,200,000

29. Larry Hughes Sacramento - $13,655,268

30. Chris Paul New Orleans - $13,655,268

 

[tobiazz]

I never said they did and the bench didn't show up in the 1st half and they didn't show up at times in the first 2 games in L.A. You said it.....they should perform to expectations. They didn't.

There will be times when the bench does not show up and there will be times when a certain player does not show up and that's to be expected so I agree that you cannot blame a player for a single game.

However, Amare's overall performance in the playoffs has been sub-par, so he does not get a pass for a particular game because he has bad in most of them. Out of all 15 playoff games (almost 1/5 of the number of regular season games he played) he has only had over 8 rebounds 3 times. He gets double digit rebounds once every five games. It's hard to express just how bad that is for a PF averaging 36 minutes.

The low rebound totals make more sense in this series since the Lakers have shot such a high percentage, but much of that can be attributed to Amare's half-assed defense in games 1 and 2. I didn't hone in on him that much in the other games, so I don't know if his standing around continued.

Anyway, let's hope the trend ends and he tears through the Lakers.

 

[Covert Rain]

what are you talking about? He signed a MAX contract extension back in 2005:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2180248

"The deal is the maximum allowed under the NBA collective bargaining agreement for the forward who jumped from high school to stardom."

Your right...at the time. I was referring to current slots and what it would take to make him a max player today. He is not in the top 10 in terms of salary. I think 16 million for a player of his offensive talent is worth it.

He is not making 20+ million per year which to me is superstar money. I would hesitate to pay him that kind of money. However, if there are NO big men available via free agency or any plausible trade scenarios....it might be the only option.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Top 30 NBA Salaries http://hoopshype.com/salaries.htm

So would someone please define which players have "max" contracts. considering this is before the bidding war this summer?

I think it's pretty simple... A MAX contract is one in which a player gets the Maximum amount of years and money allowed under the CBA.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Your right...at the time. I was referring to current slots and what it would take to make him a max player today. He is not in the top 10 in terms of salary. I think 16 million for a player of his offensive talent is worth it.

He is not making 20 million per year which to me is superstar money.

16 is about right to me for Amare. Sadly, he'll get more on the open market. 20 would choke this team for years I fear and I'll be torn up about being bad or mediocre again, but long term, letting him walk at that salary is probably our best bet.

 

[Covert Rain]

Sadly, he'll get more on the open market. 20 would choke this team for years I fear and I'll be torn up about being bad or mediocre again, but long term, letting him walk at that salary is probably our best bet.

If this was any other position and if big men grew on trees in the NBA I would agree. If history says anything, the Suns might not get another legit 20+ a night scorer for a long long long time.

 

[tobiazz]

16 is about right to me for Amare. Sadly, he'll get more on the open market. 20 would choke this team for years I fear and I'll be torn up about being bad or mediocre again, but long term, letting him walk at that salary is probably our best bet.

Signing Amare at 20M would be like signing him for 16M and also having to sign Banks to a new 4M contract. We know what lengths Sarver would go to to get rid of that 4M contract, but since there is no Banks here, we would have to save 4M by mailing away another player that is not dead weight.

The potential horror of this off-season makes these next two games that much more important.

 

[tobiazz]

If this was any other position and if big men grew on trees in the NBA I would agree. If history says anything, the Suns might not get another legit 20+ a night scorer for a long long long time.

If the Suns lose Amare, JRich would probably become that 20+ scorer, but it would kill the team's overall PPG. I really don't see a scenario where Amare leaves and the Suns have a chance to make it to the WCF next season.

 

[Cheesebeef]

If this was any other position and if big men grew on trees in the NBA I would agree. If history says anything, the Suns might not get another legit 20+ a night scorer for a long long long time.

problem with that is if Amare gets that money, then he's the most important player on the team... period and any team with him making the most money ain't ever winning jack squat IMO. It would be an exercise in futility trying to find someone we could afford to be the leader of that team while Amare's choking the salary structure.

if they just want to be competitive and make the playoffs and get run in the first round, maybe second, then be all means, sign him to 20 and buckle up for mediocrity. But if your goal is to win a title, they need to finally do the right, but very hard thing, which is just moving on from this era.

 

[Covert Rain]

if they just want to be competitive and make the playoffs and get run in the first round, maybe second, then be all means, sign him to 20 and buckle up for mediocrity. But if your goal is to win a title, they need to finally do the right, but very hard thing, which is just moving on from this era.

We are in the WCF and have been multiple times with Amare. He has had the same issues with defense and rebounding througout his career. I don't buy that it would mean mediocrity.

I do believe though that it makes your job harder as a GM to get the pieces in place to make up for Amare's shortcomings. What I can't decide is will that be harder to do or will be trying to find a big man replacement for Amare be harder.

If we go another 10 years without finding an adequate replacement...now that will guarantee mediocrity.

 

[Irish]

During their late season run, it seemed like Amare played some defense and rebounding pretty well. You can attribut that to Lpez being in the lineup, but very few quaity bigs have had to play with such "big men" as Voskow and Marion. Marion was used as a wing defender and Amere was under orders to stay out of foul trouble - on a team that couldin't keep people out of the paint.

IMHO, Amare will look more improved next season if he stays with the Suns and Lopez is healthy.