Another Trade Idea

[George O'Brien]

The other option that seems to be intellegent (when talking about Marion trades) is to add depth while providing financial relief.

Not to repeat myself, but this really isn't the time to be making trades for financial relief. The team is close now and needs to focus on winning now. When has a team made it deeper into the playoffs by trading away an All-Star for some rookies? I do think that trading Marion is potentially a way to get the team to the next level, but not if his replacement is a bunch of clueless kids.

Also, what's the big panic about the payroll? I don't know if HoopsHype has the buyout for Eisley correct (probably not), but even if you figure in his full salary for 2005-06, plus start Johnson at $8 million, plus add the #21 pick and the MLE, you're still looking at a maximum of under $60 million. That's barely over the median payroll league-wide -- not a bad deal at all for one of the best teams.

(By the way, regarding Eisley's buyout, I'm pretty sure it was all paid this year, right? So even if half of it counts against the cap next season, it doesn't affect the team's bottom line. If the team was in the black this season with the full charge of Eisley's buyout, doesn't that bode well for next year?)

I couldn't agree more. Somehow there is an unstated belief the Suns MUST stay in the $50 to $55 million range, even if it means tearing apart the team. There is even a belief that the Suns need to get well below the salary cap so they can make a big bid on a center. This latter belief is simply dilusional. The Suns are not going to have real cap space for a very long time.

In any case, the best way to prepare for trade is to stockpile talent FIRST. Trade Horney and couple of second line guys for Barkley. Don't trade a starter for unproven rookies.

BTW, I saw a classic case of this kind of blunder back in the eary 90's when the Warriors traded Mitch Richmond for the draft rights to Billy Owens. It turned out to be a huge mistake. Owens never became more than journeyman after a modestly promising start, while Richmond continued to play well for a long time. Owens had the talent, but Richmond continued to be an outstanding player.

 

[overseascardfan]

I say don't trade anyone especially Marion but if I had to trade Marion I would do it for either Marcus Camby or Kenyon Martin straight up.

 

[George O'Brien]

I say don't trade anyone especially Marion but if I had to trade Marion I would do it for either Marcus Camby or Kenyon Martin straight up.

Perhaps, but that's like asking if we'd trade him for Duncan, J O'Neal, or KG. It is pointless, because their teams aren't going to trade an upper level big for a supplimental mid sized player (as opposed to a dominant scorer).

 

[elindholm]

Most likely, any other team that potentially might want Marion would see him as a SF, not as a PF as the Suns had him this year. That means Denver is definitely out, since they already have World B. Anthony.

That said, Marion is clearly worth more than Martin. I was quite high on Martin a couple of years ago, but the reality is that he just isn't that good. Camby's value is harder to assess because of his injury history.

 

[Biclops]

If teams see Marion as SF then looking at the teams need from the previous thread...

New Orleans // Charlotte // NY // Phoenix // Houston // Detriot // SA // Miami ... all fill the need for a swing man

Considering there is no way we are trading Marion to a Western conference rival (we take out houston, san antonio) or eastern conference contender (detroit and miami) that only leaves us with...

hornets (undercap), bobcats (undercap), ny (overcap)

none of these teams have any real tradeable assets other than the draft pick. I might be interested in Primoz Brezec from the Bobcats but not at the expense of Marion

I say we keep Marion unless like BC said, some incredible deal comes up



On second thought... I say we should trade Marion to NY. Last time we traded with NY, it resulted in the suns getting into the Western Conference Final. Maybe another trade with the Knicks will net us the NBA Champion trophy

 

[Mainstreet]

Perhaps the Suns should consider what trading their #1 pick might fetch. I'm not saying trade it per se, just wondering what the market might be for the pick come draft day.

Maybe trading their #1 pick and filler (maybe Voshkuhl if he takes the option) might fetch a player like Melvin Ely or fill-in-the-blank player. It might be better than rolling the dice in the draft to get a proven commodity to go with our core players. The Suns haven't selected particularly well since Stoudemire and this year's draft appears to be a crap shoot.

The Suns might even consider dropping down in the first round (if there are any takers) to pick up another second round pick. What I'm thinking, maybe there is there another way to add quality depth to this team without making a major trade. The Suns, I believe, would still have their MLE to use.

 

[George O'Brien]

Perhaps the Suns should consider what trading their #1 pick might fetch. I'm not saying trade it per se, just wondering what the market might be for the pick come draft day.

Maybe trading their #1 pick and filler (maybe Voshkuhl if he takes the option) might fetch a player like Melvin Ely or fill-in-the-blank player. It might be better than rolling the dice in the draft to get a proven commodity to go with our core players. The Suns haven't selected particularly well since Stoudemire and this year's draft appears to be a crap shoot.

Ely did not really produce much at Charlotte. I think it is about time to accept that he's not really going to be more than journeyman.

However, one guy I think might make sense to the Suns is Chris Wilcox of the Clippers. Wilcox is a lot younger than Ely and much more athletic. The Clippers used him a bit at center where I thought he looked pretty good. As it is, he's not a big part of the Clippers at 18 minutes a game.

The kind of deal I can imagine would be one where the Suns sent the 21 and the rights to Voskuhl and McCarty to the Clippers. These guys would then exercise their options, thus saving the Clippers $2.8 million next year on a guy they are certain to lose the following year when he becomes an RFA.

 

[Joe Mama]

Ely did not really produce much at Charlotte. I think it is about time to accept that he's not really going to be more than journeyman.

However, one guy I think might make sense to the Suns is Chris Wilcox of the Clippers. Wilcox is a lot younger than Ely and much more athletic. The Clippers used him a bit at center where I thought he looked pretty good. As it is, he's not a big part of the Clippers at 18 minutes a game.

The kind of deal I can imagine would be one where the Suns sent the 21 and the rights to Voskuhl and McCarty to the Clippers. These guys would then exercise their options, thus saving the Clippers $2.8 million next year on a guy they are certain to lose the following year when he becomes an RFA.

that would be a terrible, terrible deal for the Clippers. They wouldn't make that deal with any team, and they especially wouldn't make it with their division foe. I do agree with you about Ely though. He's nothing special at all. Brezec would be a fantastic fit for this team. There's no way to get him though.

Joe Mama

 

[Mainstreet]

Ely did not really produce much at Charlotte. I think it is about time to accept that he's not really going to be more than journeyman.

The Suns do not need much more than a journeyman at center as long as he can play solid and can get some quality minutes in the Suns system. Look how much Nazr Mohammed helped San Antonio and I don't believe many people considered him special.

I am not sold on Ely, but I thought he might be obtainable, more so than Wilcox (who I really like as well). In fact there are a number of big players I would choose over Ely including Wilcox and particularly Brezec. My focus in this thread, was what type of quality player might be obtained with our 21st pick (packaged with some filler).

Is there a quality journeyman center that could be had with our 21st pick or even a back-up quality PG for Nash? If so, the Suns might want to give some thought to this option as I still believe this draft has so many players that could go either way.

 

[George O'Brien]

One guy I know very little about except a few minutes in a game against the Suns and his stats is Zaza Pachulia of the Bucks. Considering the Bucks are likely to draft Bogut and already have Gadzuric and Booth, I'd think he might be expendible. Whether he is worth getting is another question, but his stats this season were pretty good for a backup:

Zaza Pachulia
Milwaukee Bucks
Position: F-C
Height: 6-11 Weight: 265
From : Georgia (Europe)
Player file | Team stats

2004-05 Statistics
PPG 6.2
RPG 5.1
APG .8
SPG .59
BPG .46
FG% .452
FT% .746
3P% .000
MPG 18.9

His stats are roughly comparable to those of Rasho Nesterovic

Rasho Nesterovic
San Antonio Spurs
Position: C
Height: 7-0 Weight: 255
From : Slovenia
Player file | Team stats

2004-05 Statistics
PPG 5.9
RPG 6.6
APG 1.0
SPG .44
BPG 1.67
FG% .460
FT% .467
3P% .000
MPG 25.5

Hoopshype describes him this way: Plays physical ... Good game with his back to the basket... Runs the floor well... Tough defender.

Patricia contracts show him as finishing a two year contract after being drafted in #42 in the 2003 draft. Real GM shows him as an RFA, but with only a two year contract I don't think they have Bird rights on him.

As I said, I haven't seen much of his play so I don't know if he'd be worth taking a run at. Has anyone seen much of him?

 

[Mainstreet]

I like Zaza Pachulia alot, at least when I have seen him play against the Suns and have mentioned his name in other threads. He is quite skilled and I think he is only like 22 years old. If the Suns could get him you would see a big smile on my face.

 

[George O'Brien]

I decided to make my question a new thread:

Zaza Pachulia

 

[asudevil83]

alright folks....time for another Marion trade. this one is interesting IMO....and depending on FA signing rules, it COULD serve us quite well. so here goes.

Phoenix Trades: $12,584,688
Marion - $12,584,688

Phoenix Recieves: $7,865,360
Swift - $6,500,000 (S&T 5 year $37.5mil)
Josh Smith - $1,365,360
2006 First Rounde Via Atlanta

Memphis Trades: $14,062,500
Swift - $6,500,000 (S&T 5 year $37.5mil)
Jay Williams - $7,562,500
#19

Memphis Recieves: $12,584,688
Marion - $12,584,688

Atlanta Trades: $1,365,360
Josh Smith
2006 First Rounder

Atlanta Recieves: $7,562,500
Jay Williams - $7,562,500
#19

Why Memphis: They get rid of Jay Williams contract. they arent satisfied with him there, and he does make a good chunk of money. Swift would be gone anyways, as he's a UFA. they are also shopping that #19 pick. here, for ALL of these unwanted pieces they get a star. sounds like a steal doesnt it? well, it works out.

Why Atlanta: They are in need of a starting PG for their young team. here, they get one. Williams will give them that flashy style of play that will hopefully draw in fans. Additionally, with that second pick in the draft, they are looking at Marvin Williams, the best SF/SG in the league. they can immediately spot him in and surround him with the likes of Harrington, Childress and Williams. with the cap space left, they are still free to look for a starting C and players to round out their bench.

AND LASTLY
Why for the Suns: We get a starting PF. he may not be the best guy out there, but he is more than servicable. Smith could also blossom into another JJ in a couple of years. he's still got 3 years on that rookie contract, so his presence is welcome. he'd be a great addition to the bench, and maybe in a year or two, the starting lineup giving us another great young player to build around with JJ and Amare.

now, their are a few things that would affect me in whether or not i'd do the trade.

1.) the salary cap. Denver seems to think that the new CBA will raise the cap to $49mil next season. that's high.
2.) what affects the salary cap in determining what teams have to offer FA's. as i understand, any team's own FA's do count against the next season's cap, unless they are renounced. since JJ has a qualifying offer, his qualifying offer ($3.2mil) automatically counts against the cap unless we renounce his rights. additionally, any player selected in the draft counted against a teams cap even if they arent signed before the FA period. and lastly, any player with a team option or player option is counted against the cap unless either the team or player declines it.
3.) who gets the MLE. i'm not positive if a team that starts the FA period under the cap gets or doesnt get a MLE to dangle around after they hit the cap during the period.

but as i see it, the suns might be $6.2mil under the cap. that's factoring the addition of Swift and Smith, and the addition off JJ's qualifying offer, Hunter's PO, and our First Rounder.....and a cap of $49mil. if hunter were to decline his PO (which he will), we'd have $7mil to spend on FA's. we'd then be able to go after one QUALITY FA or a couple quality fa's. then resign JJ.......and MAYBE use the MLE?

either way, we'd have $7mil to sign and resign FA's instead of just the MLE to offer.

i'm not clear, and i just want to know the rules before i get any grief.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Any cap space would be used to sign JJ. We can't hold his salary spot, sign FAs, then resign him.

There are a lot of question marks here. First, Bogut would have to go #1 - or else it makes zero sense for Atlanta. Even if they can get Williams, I would think that they would be able to get something much better in return for Josh Smith than an overpaid, highly erratic point guard.

 

[asudevil83]

i forgot to say though......we COULD have the ability to sign a guy like dalambert or chandler with a salary starting at $7mil .

 

[asudevil83]

Any cap space would be used to sign JJ. We can't hold his salary spot, sign FAs, then resign him.

There are a lot of question marks here. First, Bogut would have to go #1 - or else it makes zero sense for Atlanta. Even if they can get Williams, I would think that they would be able to get something much better in return for Josh Smith than an overpaid, highly erratic point guard.

i was browsing the NBA Salar Cap Faq, and came across rule 27.

"27. Can a team sign all the free agents it wants (up to the cap limit) and THEN re-sign its own free agents using the Bird exception? Yes, but there's a restriction. A team's free agents continue to count as team salary (against the salary cap). This charge is called the "free agent amount." So there may not be enough money under the cap to sign another team's free agent, because the team's own free agents are taking up all the cap room."

what does that exactly mean?

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Look at rule 28 to figure out what JJ's cap hold would be.

His hold would be about 5.5 million.

 

[asudevil83]

Look at rule 28 to figure out what JJ's cap hold would be.

His hold would be about 5.5 million.

thanks.

well, that trade really doesnt do much for us then. all it really does is give us around $5mil in cap space that could be used on a FA, instead of needing to use the MLE on a FA.

what it would equate to would be something like Marion for Smith/Swift/Marshall?/Atlanta's First

and as far as Atlanta goes, MANY fans that i've seen would be willing to give up Harrington for Williams. i dont know if a guy like smith has more value than that. and if it also has to do with giving up a 2006 first rounder, then i'd be content with taking Memphis's this year instead of sending it to Atlanta. we could then take a gamble on a guy like Morris/Blatche or any of the young big men late in the first round.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

and as far as Atlanta goes, MANY fans that i've seen would be willing to give up Harrington for Williams. i dont know if a guy like smith has more value than that. and if it also has to do with giving up a 2006 first rounder, then i'd be content with taking Memphis's this year instead of sending it to Atlanta. we could then take a gamble on a guy like Morris/Blatche or any of the young big men late in the first round.

I know there is a lot of uneasy people with Harrington, but I am surprised to hear a lot of people would like Williams over him.

 

[cly2tw]

Josh Smith is worth way more than Williams with his bad contract. Not to mention Hornet's 2006 #1 pick.

To get Swift, it might be easier to do Marion (+Jake maybe) for Swift and Battier. Battier is not as athletic as Marion but a better shooter and better defender at the 2/3 position, with a reasonable contract. If we could then sign another banger like R.Evans to the MLE and resign Hunter for 1.5m, draft say Diogu or Morris, our roster'd be:

Amare/Swift/JJ/Q/Nash

Evans/Hunter/#21/Battier/JimJ/Barbosa

Not counting pick #21, it's 10 men deep! And if Amare improves on defense at the same pace he has been regarding offense, a defensive lineup Amare/Swift/JJ/Q/Battier can stop every team including the Spurs while both JJ and Battier can handle the ball well and Amare's point center play can keep up the offense adequately.

 

[overseascardfan]

Josh Smith is worth way more than Williams with his bad contract. Not to mention Hornet's 2006 #1 pick.

To get Swift, it might be easier to do Marion (+Jake maybe) for Swift and Battier. Battier is not as athletic as Marion but a better shooter and better defender at the 2/3 position, with a reasonable contract. If we could then sign another banger like R.Evans to the MLE and resign Hunter for 1.5m, draft say Diogu or Morris, our roster'd be:

Amare/Swift/JJ/Q/Nash

Evans/Hunter/#21/Battier/JimJ/Barbosa

Not counting pick #21, it's 10 men deep! And if Amare improves on defense at the same pace he has been regarding offense, a defensive lineup Amare/Swift/JJ/Q/Battier can stop every team including the Spurs while both JJ and Battier can handle the ball well and Amare's point center play can keep up the offense adequately.

Good but there are a couple of issues. One, Seattle will match a MLE offer for Evans, and two, I don't see Memphis giving up Battier. They may offer either Bonzi Wells, James Posey or Mike Miller.

 

[cly2tw]

Good but there are a couple of issues. One, Seattle will match a MLE offer for Evans, and two, I don't see Memphis giving up Battier. They may offer either Bonzi Wells, James Posey or Mike Miller.

What? You don't think Memphis would trade Battier for a 3rd-team All-NBA allstar playing the same position but only light years better?

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

I don't really like the deal, but if they offered up Mike Miller instead of Shane Battier - Jerry West would need to retire.

 

[asudevil83]

I know there is a lot of uneasy people with Harrington, but I am surprised to hear a lot of people would like Williams over him.

Harrington is an expiring contract next season. Atlanta will once again have a big chunk of change to use on a FA if they wish.

i've modified the trade a little to make it work out better for the suns and here goes:

Phoenix Trades: $14,521,688
Marion - $12,584,688
Voskuhl - $1,937,000

Phoenix Recieves: $7,865,360
Swift - $6,500,000 (S&T 5 year $37.5mil)
Josh Smith - $1,365,360
2006 First Rounde Via Memphis

Memphis Trades: $14,062,500
Swift - $6,500,000 (S&T 5 year $37.5mil)
Jason Williams - $7,562,500
Future First
#19

Memphis Recieves: $14,521,688
Marion - $12,584,688
Voskuhl - $1,937,000

Atlanta Trades: $1,365,360
Josh Smith

Atlanta Recieves: $7,562,500
Jason Williams - $7,562,500
#19

Why Phoenix: they clear some big salary off their books, just under $7mil. in return they get themselves a starting PF who should fit nicely with their scheme. they get Josh Smith who will server them well at backup SF/SG. with 3 years remaining on his rookie deal, Smith could turn into another young piece to build this team around along with Amare/JJ. The other important thing they get is cap space. Denver is projecting the cap to rise to $49mil. after its all said and done, the suns would have $6.8mil in cap space to use on free agents. they can then resign Hunter part of the MLE and maybe Jay Williams. when it is all said and done, the suns will be in a better position cap wise, with a more well rounded roster.

with $6.8mil to spend of FA's.....Daly/Chandler with a 5 year $40mil contract?
they have the opportunity to either use the MLE or pass on it....resign Hunter with part or go after another big like kwame.
they could also use the LLE to sign a guy like Jay Williams to backup Nash.

Why Memphis:
they part ways with two guys that they dont need or want anymore. marion would play great alongside Gasol and Miller. they get a star in return.

Why Atlanta:
with marvin williams as the probably pick, the Hawks can afford to part with one of their guys. Jason Williams gives them a PG that hopefully will bring fans into the seet, and the pick that they can use on a backup big.

Our new lineup has the potential to be something like:

Chandler or Daly/Hunter/Morris
Amare/Swift
Q/Smith
JJ/JJax/Barbs
Nash/Williams/Barbs

and an EXTREMELY reasonable $54mil payroll.

 

[asudevil83]

this is just something i thought of earlier today....as an entire offseason plan. it sounds crazy but works.

Trades:

Phoenix Trades: $14,521,688
Marion - $12,584,688
Voskuhl - $1,937,000
Phoenix Recieves: $1,365,360
Josh Smith - $1,365,360
#13

Portland Trades: $12,731,125
Van Exel - $12,731,125
#3
Portland Recieves: $12,584,688
Marion - $12,584,688

Charlotte Trades:
#5
#13
Charlotte Recieves: $12,731,125
Van Exel
#3

Atlanta Trades: $1,365,360
Josh Smith - $1,365,360
Atlanta Recieves: $1,937,000
Voskuhl - $1,937,000
#5

Why Phoenix: they make a HUGE salary dump. Smith gives them a very nice backup SF that will be a piece that the suns can incorporate into building around. the three of Amare/JJ/Smith would be something to be feared in a couple of years. not to mention that this team would have an amazing amount of cap space to go after FA's. Denver projects that the cap will rise to $49mil.....and this suns team would have just under $12mil to go after FA's, plus the MLE and LLE. That means they can go after Dalambert/Chandler if they wish.....pretty much nobody is out of reach.

Why Portland: they get a great star in Marion for essentially the #3 pick. Porland would then have a few very expendable pieces that they could trade for talent if possible. i think this would be a steal for portland.

Why Charlotte: they want to move up in the draft. the trade fo Van Exel and the #3 for the #13 and #5 has been rumored for a while. this trade just elaborates it a little. Charlotte then declines the option and are out no money.

Why Atlanta: two lotto picks would be HUGE for Atlanta. they are figured to draft Marvin Williams, who would make their SF/SG slots a little full. by taking the #5 pick, they set themselves up to draft a PG. Voskuhl gives them some depth at the C, and his expiring contract doesnt hurt much at all. in a couple of years this team will be good. they are setting themselves up to be the next baby bulls here.

Signings:

Samuel Dalambert: 5 year $40.5mil starting $6.9mil with $600,000 raises.
This signing is obvious. Dalambert would be a great addition to this team. it would allow Amare to move back to PF. those two would be quite a duo.

Chris Andersen: 4 year $14.4mil starting $3.3mil with $200,000 raises.
He'd bring some defense and hustle to the bench. we dont need many big scorers, and its time to emphasize defense on this team a little more.

Jay Williams: 3 year $5mil contract starting at $1.66mil with no raises.
Williams might just be the backup PG that we need. he's looked pretty good in workouts, and he'd be a low risk signing. both JJ and Barbs can also play the point.

Re-Sign Steven Hunter part of MLE: 3 year $7.5mil contract starting at $2.2mil with $300,000 raises.
Hunter played well for us last year. he really fits our system well, and i'm pretty sure that he wouldnt do any better in another system. he wants a larger contract, but hopefully he'd stay with the suns.

Re-Sign JJ - 6 year $60mil starting at $8.25mil with $700,000 raises.
JJ is staying no matter what. if someone offers higher, the suns will match. if it means not signing Andersen, then so be-it. JJ STAYS ON THIS TEAM.


Draft:

#13 - Antoino Wright: he'd be a nice backup at the SG slot. after next season Jimmy J may or may not be with the team. Wright would fill in nicely in JJax's spot if he departs.

#21 - Randolph Morris: Morris is a young kid. chances are he'd be a lotto pick next season. he needs work, but this suns team has the depth and time to let him develop.

New Lineup:
Dalambert/Hunter/Morris
Amare/Andersen
Q/Smith/JJax
JJ/Wright/JJax
Nash/Williams/Barbs

Payroll: $53.4mil