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Crazy Canuck

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Curious....

How many teams, recently, whose "D" was on the field 5 minutes longer per game had winning records?
 

kerouac9

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You point to very specific scenarios, but it doesn't paint the overall picture.

The players should own some the responsibility of the lack of defensive production, but Billy was the man responsible for cleaning up the mess and failed to do so. As a matter of fact, he was so bad, his system was being questioned by players such as AW. Billy's guys were checking out midway through. This much was apparent.

Part of being a coordinator (especially on a team where the coordinator is in effect the head coach of one side of the ball) is to hold players accountable, get in their heads and maximize talent. These areas are where Billy Davis failed. I know you like to pick on Joey Porter a lot, but how does he go from 9 sacks in a part-time role the previous season with Miami to 5 sacks in a full-time role with Arizona in one year? I understand he is aging, but he didn't go from 33 to 42 overnight. Dude still has pass rush talents. I don't understand definitively how talent like his went from productive to mediocre in one season, but I do know that the vibe on defense was far from positive last year.

Horton brings the schemes of a LeBeau-type defense. Whether he can execute it or not in game situations has yet to be determined. However, one thing's for sure is he is a breath of fresh air in the building. I've also read about how he has held players such as Dan Williams accountable for their short comings and conducted team-building activities with his players. So far, I like what I'm hearing.

TJ, look up the word "Synecdoche" and you'll see why this is a perfectly relevant avenue of analysis.

With Porter, you can ask any scout or Miami fan and they'll tell you that Porter was an afterthought in the Dolphins' defense and collected 8 garbage sacks where he was the third or fourth concern in blocking assignments. Part of the reason that Porter was so awful here was because of his declining skills, but also because he was supposed to be the primary pass rush threat, not a third or fourth guy trying to bring pressure. You have different expectations for Shaun Ellis than you do DeMarcus Ware.

You can't make chicken salad out of chicken isht. What are the two most important positions for a 3-4 defense? Outside pass rusher and nose tackle. We had Joey Porter's decomposing corpse and Bryan Robinson, who was never good. After that it's probably run-stopping ILB. We had Paris Lenon, who is a weakside linebacker in a 4-3 defense. What was he supposed to do with those tools?

There are some rah rah type Coordinators, but I guess that you didn't learn your lesson from the Dave McGinnis regime. Billy Davis put his players in a position to be successful; the issue was that the players weren't good enough to capitalize on those positions. You can see it in the opposing team's highlight videos that they show on SportsCenter or NFLN. There are guys in positions to make plays; they're just not able to do so.
 

Duckjake

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Curious....

How many teams, recently, whose "D" was on the field 5 minutes longer per game had winning records?

Curious how many teams have had an offense that ranked 3rd in points scored and a Defense that ranked 28th in points allowed?

Also the TOP is a bogus argument because if the D would get the opposing offense off the field faster the TOP spread wouldn't be so large.
 
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Crazy Canuck

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Curious how many teams have had an offense that ranked 3rd in points scored and a Defense that ranked 28th in points allowed?

Evidently, you have an answer to your own question and not mine.
 

Cheesebeef

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Yes, but after his 17 sack season, he became a rotation/situation guy in Miami. He played far less snaps and still registered 9 sacks.

Then he plays full time in AZ and gets more snaps.

It's "strange" only because his snaps increased and his production decreased. So therefore, it's not a "steady" decline. It's a complete drop off.

actually... it's not. his 17 sack year was an INCREDIBLE anomaly from the rest of his career. 9 sacks was about the norm and that was when he was young and playing a ton of snaps. Just saying, guys who start to creep into their mid- thirties usually start losing A LOT of their effectiveness and it usually happens over night.
 

Gee!

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Since when is Joe Flacco an "elite" quarterback. He's nowhere close to Brees, Brady, Manning, Roethlisberger, and Rodgers.

He's solidly somewhere in the second tier, but he's not anywhere near "elite."

The only thing Heap compared Flacco to was the progression being made.. It wasnt any kind of skill comparison..
 

Gee!

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The biggest upgrade to our defense will be a new QB who keeps the defense off the field & makes it harder for other teams (& their offenses) play with a lead - i.e. more freedom to pull wild plays out of their butts, run the ball more to use up clock time in the 4Q etc. etc.

Ya... you could tell the defense would be pretty much gassed and giving up in games when DA 3 and outed almost every possession last year.. In the 49ers game they all out quit and said F it and called it a season.. I had been saying this all last season.. We needed a real QB to help the defense..
 

Cheesebeef

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Ya... you could tell the defense would be pretty much gassed and giving up in games when DA 3 and outed almost every possession last year.. In the 49ers game they all out quit and said F it and called it a season.. I had been saying this all last season.. We needed a real QB to help the defense..

i saw this defense quit twice before the first quarter was over... and that was when we were still 3-2. They rolled over and died against SD and Atlanta when we didn't even know there was a season yet. Yes, the offense was horrible, but so was the defense, right from the get-go.
 

dreamcastrocks

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I never have bought into that. Especially with Arizona. The Cards had three years of high powered offense and the defense was never any good. They gave up 426 points in 2008 and tried to give up numerous leads in both '08 and '09.

The Baltimore Ravens haven't had an offense ranked in the top 12 in yards gained in 13 years yet their Defense has been ranked in the top 10 eleven times during that period.

The offense leaving the Defense on the field too long is the oldest excuse in football.

The only possible way this could be IMO is if we had a run first offense. We clearly don't have this.
 

Gee!

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i saw this defense quit twice before the first quarter was over... and that was when we were still 3-2. They rolled over and died against SD and Atlanta when we didn't even know there was a season yet. Yes, the offense was horrible, but so was the defense, right from the get-go.

Check the stats and see what exactly what went wrong.. Im not saying the defense was without fault.. Im just saying take a gander again:

Falcons game: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010091907/2010/REG2/cardinals@falcons

Chargers game: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010100311/2010/REG4/cardinals@chargers
 

MrYeahBut

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The only possible way this could be IMO is if we had a run first offense. We clearly don't have this.


I'd even say if we just had a 'run once in a while halfway decently' offense it would help greatly...

forgot to add... an offense that doesn't use the draw from the shotgun repeatedly for no gain
 

desertdawg

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The only possible way this could be IMO is if we had a run first offense. We clearly don't have this.
Fullbacks, tightends, less fumbles and Wells/Williams might balance it out some this year but we will never be a run first. I'm still hoping we just get up in the 40%.
 

TJ

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TJ, look up the word "Synecdoche" and you'll see why this is a perfectly relevant avenue of analysis.

With Porter, you can ask any scout or Miami fan and they'll tell you that Porter was an afterthought in the Dolphins' defense and collected 8 garbage sacks where he was the third or fourth concern in blocking assignments. Part of the reason that Porter was so awful here was because of his declining skills, but also because he was supposed to be the primary pass rush threat, not a third or fourth guy trying to bring pressure. You have different expectations for Shaun Ellis than you do DeMarcus Ware.

You can't make chicken salad out of chicken isht. What are the two most important positions for a 3-4 defense? Outside pass rusher and nose tackle. We had Joey Porter's decomposing corpse and Bryan Robinson, who was never good. After that it's probably run-stopping ILB. We had Paris Lenon, who is a weakside linebacker in a 4-3 defense. What was he supposed to do with those tools?

There are some rah rah type Coordinators, but I guess that you didn't learn your lesson from the Dave McGinnis regime. Billy Davis put his players in a position to be successful; the issue was that the players weren't good enough to capitalize on those positions. You can see it in the opposing team's highlight videos that they show on SportsCenter or NFLN. There are guys in positions to make plays; they're just not able to do so.

Porter was benched for bad attitude in Miami and the emergence of Cameron Wake.

Is his performance regression a variable? Sure. But it doesnt explain how he goes from 9 sacks as a part-time player to 5 as a full time. Again, he didnt age by 10 years overnight. To clarify, I don't expect elite performance this season, but I do think he'll be more motivated in 2011.

As for me "learning my lesson," I think that's hogwash, bro. Coach Mac was a ra ra coach, but his fatal flaw was he was too nice to his players. Horton can be empathetic with his players, but hard when he needs to be. That is part of the recipe for a good coach. I've been around enough good and bad coaches as a professional consultant to know this.

For Davis? I really don't understand your constant support for him. It sounds to me that your analysis is akin to playing Madden and inserting talent into your roster. and evaluating the results thereafter. Even then, if a player is not good at picking plays, the results are unwanted. There is a psychological component to coaching. Listen to interviews with players on Sportscenter. Listen to guys like AW and DRC question the system. Wouldn't you agree with me that it at least had a small contributing factor to the demise of the defense?

There is a difference between that and real life football. Players begin resenting coaches if the scheme is not to their liking or the simply don't like their coaches. It's just the nature of the beast. I would think you'd understand this being a school teacher. You probably had students that loved you, but some that didn't like your style of education and simply regressed based on their opinion of you, whether or not it was your fault.

Davis did not put his players in a position to succeed. Had he done so with the talent available, he'd be in Flagstaff right now. It's not like he was the scapegoat for poor performance. He simply doesn't have the prowess to be a coordinator. The Cards need someone with a little more passion and fire. Nothing about him exuded this.
 

AzStevenCal

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i saw this defense quit twice before the first quarter was over... and that was when we were still 3-2. They rolled over and died against SD and Atlanta when we didn't even know there was a season yet. Yes, the offense was horrible, but so was the defense, right from the get-go.

I hate to keep going back to the preseason but I still can't get the game against the Texans out of my mind. Perhaps our defense did eventually mail it in but the Houston 1st stringers simply manhandled our guys and that was the first preseason game, long before the writing was on the wall about our offense. Preseason games mean very little but I really can't remember ever seeing a team physically dominated in the manner we were that day. I want to believe it was all scheme but that's a hard thing to wrap my mind around.

Steve
 

TJ

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actually... it's not. his 17 sack year was an INCREDIBLE anomaly from the rest of his career. 9 sacks was about the norm and that was when he was young and playing a ton of snaps. Just saying, guys who start to creep into their mid- thirties usually start losing A LOT of their effectiveness and it usually happens over night.

He was 32 and playing part-time when he had 9 sacks.

I agree there is a regression component once you hit your thirties, but the fact that he played more and contributed less going from one team to the next in one year tells me there is something more to the equation.

Miami has had a playoff caliber defense for a while and part of that is from the scheme. AZ Finest can probably elaborate on this more than I because he lives in the greater Miami area. Bottom line is the scheme and chemistry play a big part in success; something the Cardinals lacked overall last season.
 

Cheesebeef

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He was 32 and playing part-time when he had 9 sacks.

and like K9 said, he was playing on a D that had a good deal of talent so he was an after thought for most teams scheming against them. Here, he's not an after thought... and he's two years older.

I agree there is a regression component once you hit your thirties, but the fact that he played more and contributed less going from one team to the next in one year tells me there is something more to the equation.

right... he played with less talent, was depended on more and was older. All of those seem to be similar factors going into this season, especially considering that I've read reports that Schofield hasn't lit the world on fire during this camp. And he's another year older. At 34, what do you really expect from this guy? That's pretty damn old for a pass-rusher.

Miami has had a playoff caliber defense for a while and part of that is from the scheme. AZ Finest can probably elaborate on this more than I because he lives in the greater Miami area. Bottom line is the scheme and chemistry play a big part in success; something the Cardinals lacked overall last season.

but part of that caliber D in Miami is also TALENT and I still think that's something we're lacking going into this season.
 

Cheesebeef

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Check the stats and see what exactly what went wrong.. Im not saying the defense was without fault.. Im just saying take a gander again:

Falcons game: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010091907/2010/REG2/cardinals@falcons

Chargers game: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010100311/2010/REG4/cardinals@chargers

don't have to check the stats... I remember every minute of that Chargers game because I witnessed that shellacking live in person.

And I remember the Falcons game where the Falcons came out on their opening drive and just mauled us. Then, we went three and out, they scored AGAIN. Then we scored a TD to bring us within 7... and then they just came back and mauled us AGAIN.

they didn't even show up for those games from the opening kick-off and that's when the team was still at or above .500 early in the season.

I hope I'm wrong, but this team's D was atrocious last year because a) they had a bad D-coordination and b) because it was relatively talentless. This year? who knows about the D coordinator - he was our third choice and his section of the Pittsburg D has always been it's weakest link and our talent is at best even with the drek we put out there last year, with whatever youth we have being balanced out by old guys being even older and still pretty much ZERO depth across the board.
 

TJ

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and like K9 said, he was playing on a D that had a good deal of talent so he was an after thought for most teams scheming against them. Here, he's not an after thought... and he's two years older.





right... he played with less talent, was depended on more and was older. All of those seem to be similar factors going into this season, especially considering that I've read reports that Schofield hasn't lit the world on fire during this camp. And he's another year older. At 34, what do you really expect from this guy? That's pretty damn old for a pass-rusher.



but part of that caliber D in Miami is also TALENT and I still think that's something we're lacking going into this season.

We have a ton of talent on our team too, but we're a sum of parts....not a whole. IMO, we have at least 4 pro bowl caliber players on defense alone.

And no, I don't expect much from Porter this season. I was simply making a point that a significant regression in one player that came from one team and went to another who, for all intents and purposes, wasn't a cohesive bunch. Obviously we disagree on this, but It's very difficult to ignore the fact that Billy Davis and his personnel moves, preparation and ability to maximize player talent was a profound reason the defense struggled last season.
 

Duckjake

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The only possible way this could be IMO is if we had a run first offense. We clearly don't have this.

Exactly. You don't hear people complaining that the offense left the Defense on the field too long when their passing offense is zipping down the field to score in a minute and a half.

Interesting stat from last season: The Baltimore Ravens were 22nd in yards gained per game but 11th in time of possession.

Finally the Cardinals don't really fit into the usual categories. I mean they were -7 in turnover differential and dead last in rushing yards and went to the Super Bowl.

Meanwhile last season our defense and special teams scored 10 TDs and they finished dead last in the worst Division in the NFL.

We're just fans of a very unusual football franchise.
 

Cheesebeef

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We have a ton of talent on our team too, but we're a sum of parts....not a whole. IMO, we have at least 4 pro bowl caliber players on defense alone.

boy... a ton of talent? I completely disagree with your assesment of our D. Dockett and Rhodes are Pro-Bowl caliber players, but Wilson's best days are behind him AND he's already injured and who's the fourth? Peterson, who hasn't even played a snap before? We have a 3-4 D which is predicated on linebackers and I believe we have the worst 3-4 linebacking core in the league. Too old or too young... there's literally no one who's proven the ability to play at a high level in the entire middle of the field.

And no, I don't expect much from Porter this season. I was simply making a point that a significant regression in one player that came from one team and went to another who, for all intents and purposes, wasn't a cohesive bunch. Obviously we disagree on this, but It's very difficult to ignore the fact that Billy Davis and his personnel moves, preparation and ability to maximize player talent was a profound reason the defense struggled last season.

I'm not really defending Davis, but if you've got talent at the OLB positon, it usually shines through. I think what we saw out of Porter is what we're going to get moving forward. hope to be proven wrong.
 

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