Arizona Rebuilding Project On Track

[Duckjake]

Made them think they played better. Sure helped in the last drive of the Superbowl



Like I said, I agree with the general premise, but it doesn't make it a reality.

The Steelers o-line was sub par last season; yet, it had an amazing pass rush. By that logic, shouldn't their o-line have been stellar? Correlation is not causation in this case.

Golf is a different sport entirely. I'll spare you the details, but the mentality of the game is far far far far different in that your experience on a tougher course can transfer to more success on an easier course.

College guys get used to the increased speed of the NFL game by practicing and playing against the faster NFL veterans. Well anyway I don't see how it could hurt going against Fitz every day.

As for me, playing Sun Ridge Canyon in Fountain Hills made playing at Pavilion Lakes worlds easier.

Well I have to agree with that. Playing Sun Ridge will make you wonder if maybe you should take up Bowling.

EDIT: On my top 10 favorite courses I've played.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Made them think they played better. Sure helped in the last drive of the Superbowl



Like I said, I agree with the general premise, but it doesn't make it a reality.

The Steelers o-line was sub par last season; yet, it had an amazing pass rush. By that logic, shouldn't their o-line have been stellar? Correlation is not causation in this case.

Golf is a different sport entirely. I'll spare you the details, but the mentality of the game is far far far far different in that your experience on a tougher course can transfer to more success on an easier course.

As for me, playing Sun Ridge Canyon in Fountain Hills made playing at Pavilion Lakes worlds easier.

I don't know what the heck that is but it certainly isn't "logic". The point was, practicing against quality opponents improves your game. It doesn't promise that the worst set of DB's in the world will all of a sudden become shut down corners simply because they play against great receivers.

Steve

 

[Duckjake]

Eagles v Steelers tonight will be an interesting look at how their Defenses are compared to ours. For me at least.

No wonder the Steelers are so good. They have Darnell Dockett playing LOLB for them.

 

[TJ]

I don't know what the heck that is but it certainly isn't "logic". The point was, practicing against quality opponents improves your game. It doesn't promise that the worst set of DB's in the world will all of a sudden become shut down corners simply because they play against great receivers.

Steve

Right. Which is why it was a rhetorical question.

 

[desertdawg]

Characterize it as you will, the results are the same, a failure to address glaring needs.

DC and QB were glaring, I wish we could have gotten some other positions locked down too, but it's easier said than done on a message board. Most everybody (even the hype chef (shefer(?))) with a mic and ear piece seems to believe we did better than most clubs in the draft and in the offseason. Like I said, I wish we had acquired some other players, but I aint tripping. Failure is not the word for our offseason/draft IMO, but I aint tripping so cheers.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

DC and QB were glaring, I wish we could have gotten some other positions locked down too, but it's easier said than done on a message board. Most everybody (even the hype chef (shefer(?))) with a mic and ear piece seems to believe we did better than most clubs in the draft and in the offseason. Like I said, I wish we had acquired some other players, but I aint tripping. Failure is not the word for our offseason/draft IMO, but I aint tripping so cheers.

I'd agree if you said "DC and QB were also glaring needs".

I never characterized the offseason/draft as a failure. I think we had a decent offseason, but to not do anything to address the OT and pass rush or even bring in credible competition was a huge mistake. You act like it's impossible to attack several holes.

I think we had a decent chance to win the division, but if we don't, it'll probably be because of these flaws.

 

[Shane]

I'd agree if you said "DC and QB were also glaring needs".

I never characterized the offseason/draft as a failure. I think we had a decent offseason, but to not do anything to address the OT and pass rush or even bring in credible competition was a huge mistake. You act like it's impossible to attack several holes.

I think we had a decent chance to win the division, but if we don't, it'll probably be because of these flaws.

You act as though they didnt attack several holes... They got a QB, a solid starting OG and a player many feel has PB talent at ILB as well as a starting caliber CB... All while trying to get in the Asomgha sweepstakes and offering more money to Braylon Edwards than he took in SF. I would say they not only did they show its possible they did rather well. You cant just fix everything in one off season. You just cant.

 

[desertdawg]

I'd agree if you said "DC and QB were also glaring needs".

I never characterized the offseason/draft as a failure. I think we had a decent offseason, but to not do anything to address the OT and pass rush or even bring in credible competition was a huge mistake. You act like it's impossible to attack several holes.

I think we had a decent chance to win the division, but if we don't, it'll probably be because of these flaws.

I can dig that, I think those needs will come this next time around and we will probably have more by then (needs that is). All I'm saying is there was only one team that went plum crazy, and we weren't far behind. If we don't win the division there will be lots of reasons, but if we are on the up and up it gives Whiz and Co another year and probably some more good aggressive spendings to play with in the next offseason.

It's either up or down this year, I'm predicting up and I think the defense will be better in a couple years if our FO continues to be aggressive with the new Bidwill. There's only 2 directions a club can go in the off season, I think we went up, I can't complain. And I hope your matching me beer for beer.

 

[conraddobler]

I really like some moves we've made.

Kolb is growing on me.

Really nervous about our LBER's but other than that I'm pretty happy with what they've done so far.

Our Oline is questionable too.

It's a good offseason so far.

 

[desertdawg]

I really like some moves we've made.

Kolb is growing on me.

Really nervous about our LBER's but other than that I'm pretty happy with what they've done so far.

Our Oline is questionable too.

It's a good offseason so far.

That is hilarious because I named our biggest tomato plant at my store "Kevin". 2 and a half weeks weeks old and it's just beautiful.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You act as though they didnt attack several holes... They got a QB, a solid starting OG and a player many feel has PB talent at ILB

wha? who are these "many" besides people on this board? His team (which is usually a pretty good judge of talent) wanted no part of him.

and you list four guys we added... to a team that was HORRENDOUS and had a ton of money to spend. that just isn't all that impressive to me. not to mention that all of those guys (save Kolb who is an incredibly exciting prospect) have MAJOR warts on their resume. I just don't agree with the idea that more couldn't be done. There were better CBs/OL out there to get and we didn't even make much of an effort to sign those guys.

 

[Shane]

There were better CBs/OL out there to get and we didn't even make much of an effort to sign those guys.

Cheese to be honest very little impresses you

But come on the simple fact is they did attack several holes on the roster. You may not agree with how they did it or who they got warts or not and that's fair enough. But they did. IMO to debate otherwise is futile.

We attempted to go after the BEST CB available. His agent told us to pound sand. Went after arguably the most talented WR available to boot even offering him more $ than he eventually took.

All I have to say is that if Fitz signs during this pre season then there is no way you cant call this off season a rousing success. Again JMO.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Cheese to be honest very little impresses you

But come on the simple fact is they did attack several holes on the roster. You may not agree with how they did it or who they got warts or not and that's fair enough. But they did. IMO to debate otherwise is futile.

but that's just it, if they did a poor job of attacking those holes and completely ignored other more GLARING holes, that's not doing a good job IMO.

We attempted to go after the BEST CB available. His agent told us to pound sand.

then we went after the most burned CB in the league last year. I don't understand why it had to be all or nothing.

Went after arguably the most talented WR available to boot even offering him more $ than he eventually took.

going after guys and not getting them signed doesn't get you brownie points Shane. Football isn't kindergarden where teams get an A for effort. They get A's for results and I fear the results from this off-season is gonna leave our season at a C at best.

All I have to say is that if Fitz signs during this pre season then there is no way you cant call this off season a rousing success. Again JMO.

a) they get Fitz re-signed, that is a rousing success.

b) why don't we talk about that when it actually happens.

c) what will you the off-season if we don't get him signed?

 

[Shane]

a) they get Fitz re-signed, that is a rousing success.

b) why don't we talk about that when it actually happens.

c) what will you the off-season if we don't get him signed?

Hard to say right now. I am "happy" with it because we addressed our most important need at QB..

So right now I just consider it a success. If Fits signs then its a "rousing success" IMO..

But my views of being a "success" depend on how Kolb turns out. So I reserve the right to change my mind in a year or tow about this off season

 

[desertdawg]

Hard to say right now. I am "happy" with it because we addressed our most important need at QB..

This is my first multiple quote quoting.

So right now I just consider it a success. If Fits signs then its a "rousing success" IMO..

I consider you a success, you kinda rock.

But my views of being a "success" depend on how Kolb turns out. So I reserve the right to change my mind in a year or tow about this off season

I reserve the right to change my mind, but I think you and Kolb rock.


Busted my multy quote cherry with some class tonight, Linderbee taught me back in the day (good luck finding that one) how you can have fun breaking up some one's stuff and still show the coolness. I didn't figure out how to get Shane at the top of each one, still learning.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

the Cards off season could have been better. There were players out there that didn't sign extraordinary contracts that could have really helped the team. For example:
speed WR: James Jones signed a 3 year deal with GB
LB: Stepehen Tulloch signed 1 year deal with Lions
OG: there were plenty of OG's available instead of relying on a guy (Rex Hadnot) who has not played in 2 years. They were lucky to get Lutui back.
CB: A guy like Nate Clements or Carlos Rogers were available. Don't hate Marshall but when the worst team in the league lets you walk, there is room for concern.
OLB:There really wasn't much available.
DL: The biggest area of concern for me and all they did was bring in Nick Eason. Franklin, Cofield, Jenkins, and Mebane all could have helped.
OT: I knew the Cards wouldn't do much here because they like Keith and Brown.

 

[Catfish]

The Republic lists Carter as 6'5, 300 lbs. Whether 300 or 280, I think it's too light for NT. Eason looks more like a NT, size wise, but the team seems to like him at DE. I still think that after Larry is signed, that we'll bring in another NT. All in all, an optimistic writeup.

Good assessment Garth-----and you may be right about the NT coming after Larry gets locked up. I have discovered that Carter is thicker than has been indicated. Not prototypical bottom heavy NT thick, but proportionally thick. To me, I am less concerned with the weight, than with his ability to stand up to a double team. If he is tough, aggressive, and stays low enough, he might be effective even though he is lighter than most. (Sendlein is not exactly a big center, but he does pretty well against the big boys).

I am anxious to see how he stacks up from a conditioning standpoint, (this being his first year as a pro, and the lockout curtailing all the off season work that normally occurs). I hope we see him at length while the ones are out there. I would like to get a good look at him to see what it is that the coaches see.

 

[Catfish]

You point to very specific scenarios, but it doesn't paint the overall picture.

The players should own some the responsibility of the lack of defensive production, but Billy was the man responsible for cleaning up the mess and failed to do so. As a matter of fact, he was so bad, his system was being questioned by players such as AW. Billy's guys were checking out midway through. This much was apparent.

Part of being a coordinator (especially on a team where the coordinator is in effect the head coach of one side of the ball) is to hold players accountable, get in their heads and maximize talent. These areas are where Billy Davis failed. I know you like to pick on Joey Porter a lot, but how does he go from 9 sacks in a part-time role the previous season with Miami to 5 sacks in a full-time role with Arizona in one year? I understand he is aging, but he didn't go from 33 to 42 overnight. Dude still has pass rush talents. I don't understand definitively how talent like his went from productive to mediocre in one season, but I do know that the vibe on defense was far from positive last year.

Horton brings the schemes of a LeBeau-type defense. Whether he can execute it or not in game situations has yet to be determined. However, one thing's for sure is he is a breath of fresh air in the building. I've also read about how he has held players such as Dan Williams accountable for their short comings and conducted team-building activities with his players. So far, I like what I'm hearing.

Good stuff in your debate TJ-----In my opinion, another positive that Horton brings, is that he is relentless in his search to determine exactly what each of his players brings to the table, (even so far as posing a question, or negative comment to them, in order to see how they react to it). That would indicate to me that he has a far greater interest in finding the right hole to plug the player into, based upon his talents and strengths, than the typical Cardinals move of trying to pound the square peg into the round hole. I am REALLY hoping that Horton is able to get more from the talent we have than his predecessors, just from this one trait. It is VERY hard to get the best from your players when you play them out of position, or play to their weaknesses rather than to their strengths. Horton seems to be very aware of that, and seems to be tireless in his efforts to identify his players strengths and weaknesses. Lets hope that we see a real improvement in how his players are utilized, as opposed to how Davis and Clancy used them.

Relying on A-Dub to pass cover deep was futile last year. It's just not one of his strengths. Failing to put DRC into position to BEST use his skills was counter productive. He was not interested in zone coverage, and either freelance himself out of position to make a play, or simply went to sleep on the job, due to his presumed lack of interest in the scheme.

 

[Catfish]

I just don't see how replacing Brian Robinson with Dan Williams and DRC with PP21/Jefferson is going to improve Defense from 29th to top 12.

Maybe if PP21 weren't a rookie and Big Dan didn't come to camp too big and Adub hadn't been hurt and Whisenhunt didn't have a track record of fielding mediocre at best Defenses.

But as long as our NT spot is suspect and the LBs are Haggans,Lenon,Washington, and Porter and ADub is at 76%, the Defense is going to be suspect no matter who is DC.

Tomorrow night will be interesting to see if another week has given Horton some time to put in what he wants. I know last week I couldn't tell the Cards had a new DC.

I wouldn't give up just yet on Horton. It just may be that he is able to play to his players strengths, and therefore get more out of the same talent than both Clancy and Davis failed to do. While I certainly don't look forward to Dan Williams holding the fort at the Nose, (at least until he gets himself into some degree of playing shape), the coaches seem to be high on Carter. I don't know if that is because he is really bringing something to the table, or if Williams is just so bad right now that even Carter looks good. I hope to see him play against the ones in GB, so that we can see what it is that the coaches are allegedly seeing.

One other thing-----the past two years, we lost considerable containment because of some of our more gifted players running themselves right out of position to make a play. As I recall, we put up some genuinely stiff defense when we were able to control the aggression of guys like DD, and kept them from over-running a play, or running clear out of position in which they would be able to make a play. Getting a real handle on controlled aggression might help tremendously to get the talent we DO have to be in position to HELP each other and contain the opposing offense instead of wildly running ourselves out of a play.

 

[Duckjake]

I'd like someone with a better handle on the X's and O's to explain why the Cards are so terrible for 80 yards and then get real tough in the RedZone.

My take was that the Cards pass defense is what has killed them ever since CKW arrived. Then of course the field compresses once you get inside the 10 and the Cards pass defense became less of a liability. In addition I've always thought that the Cards were too small to play a 3-4. (And after watching the Steelers last night I haven't changed my mind.) But once they got inside the 10 here came Alan Branch and Gabe Watson and Dan Williams to play the middle along with DD and CC and suddenly it wasn't so easy to move the football.

I couldn't believe how big Lamarr Woodley looked last night. I'd like to get a picture of him next to Darnell Dockett just to compare the two.

 

[Cheesebeef]

well, Kent Somers just perfectly encapsulated my entire thought process towards our boys right now:


"Unlike the Packers, the Cardinals' two-deep is really a flow chart of the unknown. Their starting two outside linebackers, Joey Porter and Clark Haggans, are 34. Starting nose tackle Dan Williams reported to camp in poor condition. The two starting cornerbacks, A.J. Jefferson and Greg Toler, are young and unproven. There is no premier pass rusher and strong safety Adrian Wilson is out with a torn biceps tendon.

On offense, Kolb has practiced for just two weeks. Running backs Beanie Wells and Ryan Williams haven't proved they can be productive over an entire season. There is no proven receiving threat after Larry Fitzgerald, and the offensive line remains a work in progress."

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/sports/car...reseason-green-bay-packers.html#ixzz1VUEDT1zs

 

[Mulli]

well, Kent Somers just perfectly encapsulated my entire thought process towards our boys right now:


"Unlike the Packers, the Cardinals' two-deep is really a flow chart of the unknown. Their starting two outside linebackers, Joey Porter and Clark Haggans, are 34. Starting nose tackle Dan Williams reported to camp in poor condition. The two starting cornerbacks, A.J. Jefferson and Greg Toler, are young and unproven. There is no premier pass rusher and strong safety Adrian Wilson is out with a torn biceps tendon.

On offense, Kolb has practiced for just two weeks. Running backs Beanie Wells and Ryan Williams haven't proved they can be productive over an entire season. There is no proven receiving threat after Larry Fitzgerald, and the offensive line remains a work in progress."

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/sports/car...reseason-green-bay-packers.html#ixzz1VUEDT1zs

If you aren't used to that by now, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[chickenhead]

I buy into the "offense left the defense on the field" excuse a little bit when it comes to the Cardinals of the last few years because they were something of an opportunistic defense rather than a solid one. Given enough time they will get torched. When they are gassed it turns into flag football.

In a way, the classic playoff game against the Packers was the perfect demonstration of our team. Offense running on all cylinders, defense nowhere to be found. And yet the most important plays were probably the early INT of Rodgers and (of course) the strip and return for TD in overtime. Just leaves you shaking your head.

 

[Cheesebeef]

If you aren't used to that by now, I don't know what to tell you.

used to it doesn't mean I have to like it!

 

[Crazy Canuck]

the Cards off season could have been better. There were players out there that didn't sign extraordinary contracts that could have really helped the team. For example:
speed WR: James Jones signed a 3 year deal with GB
LB: Stepehen Tulloch signed 1 year deal with Lions
OG: there were plenty of OG's available instead of relying on a guy (Rex Hadnot) who has not played in 2 years. They were lucky to get Lutui back.
CB: A guy like Nate Clements or Carlos Rogers were available. Don't hate Marshall but when the worst team in the league lets you walk, there is room for concern.
OLB:There really wasn't much available.
DL: The biggest area of concern for me and all they did was bring in Nick Eason. Franklin, Cofield, Jenkins, and Mebane all could have helped.
OT: I knew the Cards wouldn't do much here because they like Keith and Brown.

LB: Stepehen Tulloch signed 1 year deal with Lions

We needed a "thumper" (Bradley) not another 240 lb tackling machine; that's Washington's job

CB: A guy like Nate Clements or Carlos Rogers were available. Don't hate Marshall but when the worst team in the league lets you walk, there is room for concern.

Well, both SF and Washington let those two go, and Marshall turned down a 3 year deal with Carolina a year ago. I like a guy who insists on a 1-year deal to prove himself.