Arizona Rebuilding Project On Track

[TJ]

boy... a ton of talent? I completely disagree with your assesment of our D. Dockett and Rhodes are Pro-Bowl caliber players, but Wilson's best days are behind him AND he's already injured and who's the fourth? Peterson, who hasn't even played a snap before? We have a 3-4 D which is predicated on linebackers and I believe we have the worst 3-4 linebacking core in the league. Too old or too young... there's literally no one who's proven the ability to play at a high level in the entire middle of the field.



I'm not really defending Davis, but if you've got talent at the OLB positon, it usually shines through. I think what we saw out of Porter is what we're going to get moving forward. hope to be proven wrong.

Trust me, OLB concerns me too (I think this is the overall sentiment). Like you, I hope guys like Acho and Schofield exceed my expectations.

 

[Duckjake]

Trust me, OLB concerns me too (I think this is the overall sentiment). Like you, I hope guys like Acho and Schofield exceed my expectations.

Sadly they're going to stink it up.

Seriously, those are the two guys I'm most interested in watching tomorrow. The other key of course is Big Dan. Any news on how his conditioning is progressing?

 

[Longcolts]

Sadly they're going to stink it up.

Seriously, those are the two guys I'm most interested in watching tomorrow. The other key of course is Big Dan. Any news on how his conditioning is progressing?

I'm rather surprised to not hear of Williams working off to the side with Lutui. If he's that far out of shape why isn't he?

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Trust me, OLB concerns me too (I think this is the overall sentiment). Like you, I hope guys like Acho and Schofield exceed my expectations.

Sadly, this was the entire plan of the FO. It's amazing how effective any QB looks when they can sit back there all day and pick apart secondaries. I like our D line, and think our secondary will be OK, and can even live with our ILB's, but our defense is just fatally flawed with our OLB's.

Instead of doing something, anything to improve one of the worst pass rushes in football, we're relying on an unknown quantity coming off of an injury (Schofield) and drafted a player not known for his pass rushing skills late in the draft. Even worse, Schofield has been almost invisible throughout camp. Just disgusting.

As bad as our pass rush is, it makes me even more fearful to hear this kind of talk:

"Much of the evening belonged to the defense, which consistently pressured the pocket and disrupted the offense's passing game.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jim_trotter/08/18/cardinals.postcard/index.html#ixzz1VP2XPZsQ"

Either our defense has suddenly figured out how to rush the passer, or our OL is an even bigger worry than previously thought.

I hate to be negative and still think we have a legit shot at winning the division, but the fact that OL and pass rusher weren't addressed just completely befuddles me. Can anyone explain this?

 

[Cheesebeef]

I hate to be negative and still think we have a legit shot at winning the division, but the fact that OL and pass rusher weren't addressed just completely befuddles me. Can anyone explain this?

there's only two options: the coaching staff really believes in the players at those positions (a terrifying thought considering what we watched last year) or we didn't want to spend any more money (a completely pissed off that considering what we didn't spend last year).

 

[DoTheDew]

Since when is Joe Flacco an "elite" quarterback. He's nowhere close to Brees, Brady, Manning, Roethlisberger, and Rodgers.

Last year Flacco passed for 3622 yards, with a 62.6% completion rate, had 25 TDs to 10 INTs and a 93.6 QB rating. He may not be elite yet, but he is certainly on the edge of it. His #s were roughly equal to Big Ben and better then Manning (QB rating) last year and it was only his 3rd year. If he progresses any more this year I think you have to consider him as a candidate for that group. And FWIW I think Philip Rivers belongs in that group as well, posting over a 100 QB rating 3 years in a row, having over a 65% completion rate 3 years in a row, throwing 34,28, and 30 TDs in that time, and that was with Vincent Jackson holding out most of the season last year.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Sadly, this was the entire plan of the FO. It's amazing how effective any QB looks when they can sit back there all day and pick apart secondaries. I like our D line, and think our secondary will be OK, and can even live with our ILB's, but our defense is just fatally flawed with our OLB's.

Instead of doing something, anything to improve one of the worst pass rushes in football, we're relying on an unknown quantity coming off of an injury (Schofield) and drafted a player not known for his pass rushing skills late in the draft. Even worse, Schofield has been almost invisible throughout camp. Just disgusting.

As bad as our pass rush is, it makes me even more fearful to hear this kind of talk:

"Much of the evening belonged to the defense, which consistently pressured the pocket and disrupted the offense's passing game.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jim_trotter/08/18/cardinals.postcard/index.html#ixzz1VP2XPZsQ"

Either our defense has suddenly figured out how to rush the passer, or our OL is an even bigger worry than previously thought.

I hate to be negative and still think we have a legit shot at winning the division, but the fact that OL and pass rusher weren't addressed just completely befuddles me. Can anyone explain this?

OLB: There was only one first rate rushing outside linebacker in the draft, Miller, and he was off the board at #5. All others beyond the first round (Ayers, Houston, Moch, Acho, etc) were projects. In Schofield we already had one of the latter with as good, if not better - credentials as a pass rusher in College. There were no bonified LB pass rushers in FA. If there had been one, the Jets, for one example, would have been all over him.

OL: The Cards did make an offer to Jamal Brown, who re-signed with the Redskins. It was rumoured they tried to make a deal with Doug Free, but he decided to stay with Dallas. Again, the FA list for O-tackle is middling to weak, at best. No one let's high quality O-tackles on to the market, if they can prevent it.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Last year Flacco passed for 3622 yards, with a 62.6% completion rate, had 25 TDs to 10 INTs and a 93.6 QB rating. He may not be elite yet, but he is certainly on the edge of it. His #s were roughly equal to Big Ben and better then Manning (QB rating) last year and it was only his 3rd year. If he progresses any more this year I think you have to consider him as a candidate for that group. And FWIW I think Philip Rivers belongs in that group as well, posting over a 100 QB rating 3 years in a row, having over a 65% completion rate 3 years in a row, throwing 34,28, and 30 TDs in that time, and that was with Vincent Jackson holding out most of the season last year.

Yes on Rivers, no on Flacco. He is clearly a notch below the others listed.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

OLB: There was only one first rate rushing outside linebacker in the draft, Miller, and he was off the board at #5. All others beyond the first round (Ayers, Houston, Moch, Acho, etc) were projects. In Schofield we already had one of the latter with as good, if not better - credentials as a pass rusher in College. There were no bonified LB pass rushers in FA. If there had been one, the Jets, for one example, would have been all over him.

OL: The Cards did make an offer to Jamal Brown, who re-signed with the Redskins. It was rumoured they tried to make a deal with Doug Free, but he decided to stay with Dallas. Again, the FA list for O-tackle is middling to weak, at best. No one let's high quality O-tackles on to the market, if they can prevent it.

Excuses don't make great football teams. Are decent pass rushers and OT's hard to find? Of course, but that's what the FO is paid for. Whether it be through the draft or through free agency, the organization failed on both ends.

Even if we didn't bring in premier options at those positions, a stop gap or even competition would be preferable to what we currently have. These are the mistakes that kill seasons.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Excuses don't make great football teams. Are decent pass rushers and OT's hard to find? Of course, but that's what the FO is paid for. Whether it be through the draft or through free agency, the organization failed on both ends.

Even if we didn't bring in premier options at those positions, a stop gap or even competition would be preferable to what we currently have. These are the mistakes that kill seasons.

I see reasons, you see excuses.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I see reasons, you see excuses.

but your reason that we didn't do anything at T IS an excuse as the "weak-middling" evaluation of what was available at the position doesn't come close to jiving with the reality of the situation. It was FLUSH at that position over pretty much every thing else.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-cole_2011_nfl_free_agents_by_pos_072511&expire=1#free-OL

19. LT Jermon Bushrod(notes) – Unheralded former fourth-round pick has turned himself into an above average left tackle in a pass-oriented offense. What else needs to be said? He’s staying in New Orleans.

20. LT Charlie Johnson(notes) – He’s leaving the Colts for the Vikings. Hasn’t been as consistent as Bushrod, but is more experienced. Don’t think for a second that the Colts really wanted to let him go.

21. LT Jeremy Trueblood(notes) – He’s staying in Tampa. Again, it’s not often that capable offensive tackles get to free agency. Like Bushrod and Johnson, Trueblood isn’t an All-Pro, but he’s a good pro.

26. LT Doug Free(notes) – Like Bushrod, Free is a former fourth-round pick who has turned himself into a solid left tackle, even if he’s simply not that good an athlete for the spot. The Cowboys will re-sign him to a four-year, $32 million deal.

34. RT Tyson Clabo(notes) – Not many guys work their way from being undrafted to the practice squad to the Pro Bowl. The Falcons re-signed him to a five-year, $25 million deal.

38. RT Sean Locklear(notes) – Another offensive tackle who can’t play the left side, but is reasonably athletic for the right side. He may not be great, but he’ll get paid.

39. LT Matt Light(notes) – He got a two-year deal to stay in New England. Has it really been 10 years of watching Light use his middling skills to become one of the most consistent left tackles in the game? Yes, and he has a few more in him.

Seven of the top 39 players in FA were Tackles and most of them were YOUNG tackles.

and even below them you had these guys:

AGREED TO TERMS 53. LT Jared Gaither(notes) – The talent is there for the future Raider to be better than guys like Bushrod and Trueblood, but a combination of injuries and attitude have gotten in the way.

AGREED TO TERMS 59. OL Marshal Yanda(notes) – Yanda is staying in Baltimore after getting a five-year, $32 million deal. He has played most of his career at guard, where he’s pretty good. He has also played right tackle, which makes him valuable.

Weak to middling at T couldn't be further from the truth. Saying the position wasn't really there to make an impact signing is an excuse and nothing more.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

but your reason that we didn't do anything at T IS an excuse as the "weak-middling" evaluation of what was available at the position doesn't come close to jiving with the reality of the situation. It was FLUSH at that position over pretty much every thing else.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-cole_2011_nfl_free_agents_by_pos_072511&expire=1#free-OL

19. LT Jermon Bushrod(notes) – Unheralded former fourth-round pick has turned himself into an above average left tackle in a pass-oriented offense. What else needs to be said? He’s staying in New Orleans.

20. LT Charlie Johnson(notes) – He’s leaving the Colts for the Vikings. Hasn’t been as consistent as Bushrod, but is more experienced. Don’t think for a second that the Colts really wanted to let him go.

21. LT Jeremy Trueblood(notes) – He’s staying in Tampa. Again, it’s not often that capable offensive tackles get to free agency. Like Bushrod and Johnson, Trueblood isn’t an All-Pro, but he’s a good pro.

26. LT Doug Free(notes) – Like Bushrod, Free is a former fourth-round pick who has turned himself into a solid left tackle, even if he’s simply not that good an athlete for the spot. The Cowboys will re-sign him to a four-year, $32 million deal.

34. RT Tyson Clabo(notes) – Not many guys work their way from being undrafted to the practice squad to the Pro Bowl. The Falcons re-signed him to a five-year, $25 million deal.

38. RT Sean Locklear(notes) – Another offensive tackle who can’t play the left side, but is reasonably athletic for the right side. He may not be great, but he’ll get paid.

39. LT Matt Light(notes) – He got a two-year deal to stay in New England. Has it really been 10 years of watching Light use his middling skills to become one of the most consistent left tackles in the game? Yes, and he has a few more in him.

Seven of the top 39 players in FA were Tackles and most of them were YOUNG tackles.

and even below them you had these guys:

AGREED TO TERMS 53. LT Jared Gaither(notes) – The talent is there for the future Raider to be better than guys like Bushrod and Trueblood, but a combination of injuries and attitude have gotten in the way.

AGREED TO TERMS 59. OL Marshal Yanda(notes) – Yanda is staying in Baltimore after getting a five-year, $32 million deal. He has played most of his career at guard, where he’s pretty good. He has also played right tackle, which makes him valuable.

Weak to middling at T couldn't be further from the truth. Saying the position wasn't really there to make an impact signing is an excuse and nothing more.

Why muddy the waters with facts? On the bright side, we did have arguably the worst starting tackle tandem of any NFL team. Surely, none of these players would be an improvement on what we currently have...

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I see reasons, you see excuses.

Characterize it as you will, the results are the same, a failure to address glaring needs.

 

[TJ]

FWIW, last season, both the Steelers and Packers had much maligned offensive lines; yet, made it to the Superbowl.

I am a proponent of the notion that a solid line is a primary indicator for a successful offense, but it's not necessarily a death sentence if you don't have one. We proved this as well in 2008 and 2009. It helps that we have a mobile QB rather than timid statues behind center this season.

JMHO.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Why muddy the waters with facts? On the bright side, we did have arguably the worst starting tackle tandem of any NFL team. Surely, none of these players would be an improvement on what we currently have...

and that doesn't even go into the Gs that were available... where we signed a guy who's described as "Any way you look at Colledge, he’s a limited player. He can only play guard and some people think he’s not that good." YAY! That guy alone should solve the woes of one of the worst O-line in football last year!

 

[ASUCHRIS]

and that doesn't even go into the Gs that were available... where we signed a guy who's described as "Any way you look at Colledge, he’s a limited player. He can only play guard and some people think he’s not that good." YAY! That guy alone should solve the woes of one of the worst O-line in football last year!

Yeah, hard to get too excited about the worst player from GB's O-line. Always frightening signing the scraps from superior organizations, it's worked really well so far for us... Meanwhile our best o-lineman sits on the sidelines, despite the fact that he is STILL the best even grossly overweight. Yowza...

 

[kerouac9]

We have a ton of talent on our team too, but we're a sum of parts....not a whole. IMO, we have at least 4 pro bowl caliber players on defense alone.

Dockett, Wilson, Rhodes... Who do you think is the 4th?

But the big issue is that those Pro Bowl caliber players are at non-impact positions. Safety and 3-4 DE? You can get guys to the Pro Bowl if they put up shiny stats (which Dockett does because he's listed as a DT not a DE), but they're not going to keep opposing OCs up at night. Who do you think that opposing offenses have to game plan around on Wednesdays? Do you really think that after the last two years that offensive coordinators are worried about Adrian Wilson?

We have below-average talent on our defense and a complete lack of playmakers. That's just the fact of it right now. Horton could be the second coming of Dick LeBeau as our third choice for DC, but if he as nothing to work with, as I said, the product will be on the field.

I hope I'm wrong, but this team's D was atrocious last year because a) they had a bad D-coordination and b) because it was relatively talentless. This year? who knows about the D coordinator - he was our third choice and his section of the Pittsburg D has always been it's weakest link and our talent is at best even with the drek we put out there last year, with whatever youth we have being balanced out by old guys being even older and still pretty much ZERO depth across the board.

If I had to rank the problems of the D last year, I'd rank them thusly:

1) Lack of competitive spirit or responsibility. Coach didn't put games in the defenses hands by running the ball and keeping it close to the end. He came out throwing and that was a problem. When the offense couldn't do anything and was embarrassingly bad, guys started playing for themselves.

2) Lack of talent at impact positions. When you're depending on Bryan Robinson, Paris Lenon, and Walking Dead Joey Porter to be the foundational players for the 3-4 scheme, you've lost before you've even started. Losing Karlos Dansby and replacing him with lost and soft Daryl Washington exposed Adrian Wilson.

3) Uncreative defensive coaching. This is a distant third. You can coordinate a defense when you have a guy you can depend on at each level of the defense, but we didn't have anyone to depend on in the linebacking corps, which is the most important in this scheme. Virtually no depth across the board didn't help, either.

Last year Flacco passed for 3622 yards, with a 62.6% completion rate, had 25 TDs to 10 INTs and a 93.6 QB rating. He may not be elite yet, but he is certainly on the edge of it. His #s were roughly equal to Big Ben and better then Manning (QB rating) last year and it was only his 3rd year. If he progresses any more this year I think you have to consider him as a candidate for that group. And FWIW I think Philip Rivers belongs in that group as well, posting over a 100 QB rating 3 years in a row, having over a 65% completion rate 3 years in a row, throwing 34,28, and 30 TDs in that time, and that was with Vincent Jackson holding out most of the season last year.

Roethlisberger only played 12 games and he still averaged 0.8 YPA and over 40 YPG(!!!) more than "elite" Flacco. Manning lost his second-favorite target and wasn't supported by the NFL's 11th-ranked run defense, either. Ask anyone who watches games and they'll tell you that Flacco has a ways to go to become an elite QB, and he'll likely get pushed further back by Josh Freeman's emergence this year.

I just forgot Phillip Rivers in my list. IMO, he's the best QB in the NFL.

 

[Mitch]

FWIW, last season, both the Steelers and Packers had much maligned offensive lines; yet, made it to the Superbowl.

I am a proponent of the notion that a solid line is a primary indicator for a successful offense, but it's not necessarily a death sentence if you don't have one. We proved this as well in 2008 and 2009. It helps that we have a mobile QB rather than timid statues behind center this season.

JMHO.

Yes, TJ...but how were the Packers and Steelers able to improve their pass protection?

Every day in practice, their tackles had to block versus some of the best edge rushers in the league.

What compounds the Cardinals' situation is that the tackles don't get anywhere near the edge pressure in practice that they have to face in games.

Remember last pre-season when Brandon Keith was steamrolled on the first play of pre-season by Mario Williams?

How often have we heard that the tackles struggled mightily early in game but improved some as the game went along? We even heard this last week versus Oakland.

Conversely, the Cardinals' edge rushers don't get the same kind of challenge in practice as what they face in the games, because our tackles aren't as well-developed or as talented.

And to further prove how correct ASUCHRIS is---here's what the Cardinals have actually done to improve the T and OLB situation this off-season:

No tackles were added.

Sam Acho was drafted in the 4th round---and they signed Duke Lemmons as a UCFA.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Why muddy the waters with facts? On the bright side, we did have arguably the worst starting tackle tandem of any NFL team. Surely, none of these players would be an improvement on what we currently have...

One fact, worth noting, is 6 of the list re-signed with their existing team. In other words, a premium had to be paid to pry them from their comfortable surroundings. Was it prohibitive, I don't know.

As to whether our present group of 3 O-tackles will meet the test, again, I don't know. Left to be seen, as they say.

Q: If the remaining tackles that got onto the market were so good, or so much better than what we have, I'm wondering why none of them was picked by the Philly "dream team". Despite Vick's mobility they gave up almost as many sacks as the Cards last season.

 

[Cheesebeef]

One fact, worth noting, is 6 of the list re-signed with their existing team. In other words, a premium had to be paid to pry them from their comfortable surroundings.

sure, it's worth noting... but there usually is a premium to be paid for getting players that are accomplished at their positions.

Was it prohibitive, I don't know.

I think it's more prohibitive not even trying on most of them and just going with the atrociousness we saw last season on our own team.

As to whether our present group of 3 O-tackles will meet the test, again, I don't know. Left to be seen, as they say.

but didn't we see that they completely failed the test last season? why would we think after an off-season where they basically got no work in that they should be trusted to take that test again?

Q: If the remaining tackles that got onto the market were so good, or so much better than what we have, I'm wondering why none of them was picked by the Philly "dream team". Despite Vick's mobility they gave up almost as many sacks as the Cards last season.

maybe because they set their sights on loading up on the defense which was their weak link last year? Any team with Vick is always going to have more sacks than most because of the style he plays.

but do you still believe that class of OL was weak-to-middling?

 

[Duckjake]

Eagles v Steelers tonight will be an interesting look at how their Defenses are compared to ours. For me at least.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

sure, it's worth noting... but there usually is a premium to be paid for getting players that are accomplished at their positions.



I think it's more prohibitive not even trying on most of them and just going with the atrociousness we saw last season on our own team.



but didn't we see that they completely failed the test last season? why would we think after an off-season where they basically got no work in that they should be trusted to take that test again?



maybe because they set their sights on loading up on the defense which was their weak link last year? Any team with Vick is always going to have more sacks than most because of the style he plays.

but do you still believe that class of OL was weak-to-middling?[/QUOTE]

Yes... to those who actually became available.

Again, I'm not privy to the efforts made to meet needs going into this season. Although, mildly suspect, there've been hundreds of conversations between agents and FO staff. I'm not prepared to judge efforts without some detail.

In the end the proof will be on the field come September, and I'm looking forward to it without the hand-wringing and trepidation of some.

 

[TJ]

Yes, TJ...but how were the Packers and Steelers able to improve their pass protection?

Every day in practice, their tackles had to block versus some of the best edge rushers in the league.

That doesn't necessarily create competency for the offensive line. It can also have a counter-intuitive effect in that it creates self-doubt if those players are mentally weak.

Put it this way: was our pass defense better a couple of years ago because it had to go against Boldin and Fitz every practice?

While I agree with the general premise, there isn't much of a correlation between going against a strong pass rush at practice and implementing that experience into the actual game.

What compounds the Cardinals' situation is that the tackles don't get anywhere near the edge pressure in practice that they have to face in games.

Remember last pre-season when Brandon Keith was steamrolled on the first play of pre-season by Mario Williams?

It was preseason and Keith's first start at RT. I went to that game against Houston and realized Williams was in front of him. I predicted he would struggle and he did. But that's ok because it was a good learning experience for him out of the gate and the result of the game was inconsequential. But prior to his injury, Keith was progressing and even displayed toughness when he continued to play through that injury when he sustained it.

Conversely, the Cardinals' edge rushers don't get the same kind of challenge in practice as what they face in the games, because our tackles aren't as well-developed or as talented.

This kind of goes with what I said above. I'll add that if you have to rely solely on the competition in practice to make you better, then you're simply not a good player.

In my experience working one-on-one with football players and improving mental toughness, this has yet to be an issue or a topic of discussion.

And to further prove how correct ASUCHRIS is---here's what the Cardinals have actually done to improve the T and OLB situation this off-season:

No tackles were added.

Sam Acho was drafted in the 4th round---and they signed Duke Lemmons as a UCFA.

....buta competent QB with mobility and a new DC with fire in his belly were added, and that's more important to me than getting a tackle and an OLB. While I am just as disappointed as you that the tackle position wasn't addressed, I also had to realize that all football teams have strengths and weaknesses. It's about how you compensate for those weaknesses is what improves a team. Horton may have a way to get the most out of guys like Porter, Schofield and Acho and make a weakness a strength. I'm not 100% sold on the fact that we are going to lag in pass rush. I'm waiting to see how Horton motivates his troops.

The only weakness that seems nearly impossible to make up for is incompetency at QB. I think we learned this last season. At least for me, this is not a concern as I think Kolb will do just fine this season.

Pass protection scares me. The only positives I can think of are that Sherman seems like he can hold his own and Beanie is getting better at picking up blitzes (notice how I only referenced backs?) I think our interior is respectable, but the edges are going to be our Achilles's heal. I've come to terms with it.

But as I stated in my OP, will it be the death of this team? Not necessarily, but only time will tell.

 

[Duckjake]

Put it this way: was our pass defense better a couple of years ago because it had to go against Boldin and Fitz every practice?

I think I remember our DBs saying it made them better.

I'm of the opposite opinion and believe that going against tougher guys in practice does make you a better player.

I know playing a really tough golf course on a regular basis has allowed me to score better when I go play other courses than I did when I played a much easier course regularly.

 

[TJ]

I think I remember our DBs saying it made them better.

I'm of the opposite opinion and believe that going against tougher guys in practice does make you a better player.

I know playing a really tough golf course on a regular basis has allowed me to score better when I go play normal courses.

Made them think they played better. Sure helped in the last drive of the Superbowl



Like I said, I agree with the general premise, but it doesn't make it a reality.

The Steelers o-line was sub par last season; yet, it had an amazing pass rush. By that logic, shouldn't their o-line have been stellar? Correlation is not causation in this case.

Golf is a different sport entirely. I'll spare you the details, but the mentality of the game is far far far far different in that your experience on a tougher course can transfer to more success on an easier course.

As for me, playing Sun Ridge Canyon in Fountain Hills made playing at Pavilion Lakes worlds easier.