ARod's dream offseason (blow it up and start over edition

kerouac9

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A lot of other teams do.

Arod is advocating to start 9 rookies plus a new quarterback who is at best a lateral move from where we are now (I have little faith in Seneca Wallace). There are teams that do that, but not a lot of successful teams who do. The Arizona Cardinals cannot afford to have another 5 win season in 2011, especially if it goes along with a work stoppage.

Who was the last team to start 9 rookies to begin the season? How successful were they?
 
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ARodg

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I'm sure that the organization is confident that they can build through the draft, I just don't think that anyone outside it is. But I think that personnel hits from the organization should be filed under "blind squirrel finding nut" until they show that it can be done with consistency.

You're not dealing with an NFL-caliber organization when you're dealing with the Cards' personnel department. They're much more like the Lions or Bengals than they are the Dolphins, Packers, or Patriots.

I get that, the problem I have is that I just don't see another way to build in the NFL. The front office needs to be replaced and I know I'm preaching to the choir.

EDIT: I get what your saying, I'm taking Ted Thompson for granted. Not every GM gets a good player with every pick.
 
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ARodg

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And the Packers aren't off the hook, either. Here are their last 6 first- and second-round picks.

B.J. Raji
Clay Matthews
Jordy Nelson
Brian Brohm
Justin Harrell
Brandon Jackson

Raji and Matthews look like perrennial pro bowlers. Brohm, Harrell, and Jackson are all stink-bombs. Brohm lost his job to an undrafted rookie free agent in training camp, Harrell has 2 starts in 3 seasons, and Brandon Jackson got his job yanked by another undrafted rookie free agent. Jordy Nelson is your 5th receiving option when Finley is healthy.

That's why you don't trade away untarnished stars for draft picks. I love the way the Green Bay Packers do business most of the time, but when you're putting your franchise in the hands of a bunch of guys who haven't played a game before, you're really in a precarious position.

I'm going to say Jordy Nelson being the 5th option isn't an indictment on his skills it's more about the Packers depth than anything else.

Brohm was #56
Jackson was #63
Harrel was #16

Harrel is a bust there's no question. Injuries have derailed his career, so he might still become something but I doubt it. If he does oh well.

My Brandon Jackson hate is unnparalleled by any player that's ever been on the Packers other than Brent Farve. Even still Jackson is a serviceable third down back. He's a great blocker and has good hands.

Brohm was just a major screw up I don't even have a reason for that pick, but he never lost his job. He asked to be cut and the Packers cut him. He never got past third on the depth chart but he never lost the #3 spot either.

2 probowlers 2 servicable players and 2 screw ups, one due to injury.

If the Cards pulled 2 probowlers out of that draft, especially at NT and Rush Backer I'd call that a success wouldn't you.
 

kerouac9

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Brohm lost his job to Matt Flynn coming out of mini-camp. Brohm was a second-round pick, Flynn was a seventh-round pick in the same draft. Not a UDFA, just practically one.

Brandon Jackson stinks. His career YPC is under 4 yards. You don't use a 2nd round pick on a serviceable 3rd down back. Jordy Nelson is an all right player, but he's the 5th option in the passing game and he's nothing special even on special teams. Both those guys are bad picks.

I love the way the Packers re-built their team in 2008 and into 2009. I love their front office. But you can't pretend because you have a whole bunch of picks in the Top 60 selections in the draft that they're all going to be good. It's a recipe for disaster.
 
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ARodg

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Brohm lost his job to Matt Flynn coming out of mini-camp. Brohm was a second-round pick, Flynn was a seventh-round pick in the same draft. Not a UDFA, just practically one.

Brandon Jackson stinks. His career YPC is under 4 yards. You don't use a 2nd round pick on a serviceable 3rd down back. Jordy Nelson is an all right player, but he's the 5th option in the passing game and he's nothing special even on special teams. Both those guys are bad picks.

I love the way the Packers re-built their team in 2008 and into 2009. I love their front office. But you can't pretend because you have a whole bunch of picks in the Top 60 selections in the draft that they're all going to be good. It's a recipe for disaster.

Then what's the solution??

Taking guys in the top 60 gives you the best chance to hit on a player.

I count 10 pro bowl caliber guys on the Packers roster:

Collins (2nd round-2005)
Finley (3rd round-2008)
Jenkins (undrafted)
Jennings (2nd round-2006)
Matthews (1st round-2009)
Raji (1st round-2009)
Rodgers (1st round-2005)
Sitton (4th round-2008)
Williams (undrafted)
Woodson (Free Agency)

3 1st rounders
2 2nd rounders
1 3rd and 4th rounder
2 were picked up as Undrafted Free Agents
1 was picked up because nobody else wanted him.

That's how I'm advocating this team rebuilding, and I am advocating rebuilding. I'd rather go 5-11 two years in a row and then turn it around, than finish 7-9 for the next decade.

I didn't include:

Chad Clifton because he didn't deserve to make the Pro Bowl but he was voted in and he was very good this year. 2nd round pick just for the record.

I didn't know whether to add Shields or not. He's the third corner but he's on the field every down because Capers plays a 2-4-5. He was good enough to make it. (Undrafted)

The point stands that teams build by drafting well and then finding the diamonds in the rough (Charles Woodson, Cullen Jenkins, Tramon Williams, Sam Shields, James Starks)
 
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desertdawg

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If you want to blow something up, might I suggest the Green Bay Packers after they lose the Superbowl. :p
 
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ARodg

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Way off Topic, I'm looking at your sig, Did Brown give up 15 sacks this year?
 
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ARodg

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If you want to blow something up, might I suggest the Green Bay Packers after they lose the Superbowl. :p

I had a long response written out, but I was going to come off like a major douche so I'll just post this

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In case you're wondering that's a Quarteback
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desertdawg

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I had a long response written out, but I was going to come off like a major douche so I'll just post this

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Not the belt! Anything but the belt. :biglaugh:
 

ASUCHRIS

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I had a long response written out, but I was going to come off like a major douche so I'll just post this

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In case you're wondering that's a Quarteback
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Footage from a preseason game? Well played...

We're more than well aware of what a QB is. Perhaps you forgot this fella?

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5 TD's and 4 incompletions? That's a quarterback.
 

Crazy Canuck

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I had a long response written out, but I was going to come off like a major douche so I'll just post this

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You would think after the Playoff loss in AZ he'd drop that childish exhibition.

That said... On the NFL Network they reported that Aaron has been consulting with Kurt Warner.

Smart Boy.
 
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ARodg

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Geez guys I was just joking around.

And for the record the correct response would have been:

63 and sunny vs. 20 with 4 inches of snow
 

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back to the topic of your offseason fanasty list. I'm with everyone else when they say do not trade Fitzgerald. That would set this program back a few more years imo.

I am not a Timmy Hightower fan at all. He fumbles to much. So trade him instead for whatever you can get out of him.

Like the Breaston resign.

After the Senoir Bowl, wouldn't be disappointed if the Cardinals drafted that Nevada QB with the #5 pick. Reminds a lot of Aaron Rogers. I just have to learn how to spell his name.
 
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ARodg

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back to the topic of your offseason fanasty list. I'm with everyone else when they say do not trade Fitzgerald. That would set this program back a few more years imo.

I am not a Timmy Hightower fan at all. He fumbles to much. So trade him instead for whatever you can get out of him.

Like the Breaston resign.

After the Senoir Bowl, wouldn't be disappointed if the Cardinals drafted that Nevada QB with the #5 pick. Reminds a lot of Aaron Rogers. I just have to learn how to spell his name.

If we drafted Kaernawhateverthehellhisnameis with the #5, I will fly down to Arizona, beat Graves to death with a tire iron and everybody on this board and the Cardinal fans at large will chip in to pay my bail and my legal fees.
 

vinnymac

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If we drafted Kaernawhateverthehellhisnameis with the #5, I will fly down to Arizona, beat Graves to death with a tire iron and everybody on this board and the Cardinal fans at large will chip in to pay my bail and my legal fees.

ok what don't I know about him. He looks like a promising prospect.
 
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ARodg

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ok what don't I know about him. He looks like a promising prospect.

He's a promising prospect but there are some flaws. He's slotted at pick#77 for a reason. You don't select a guy that's supposed to go in the 3rd round at pick #5. If they think he's the QB of the future you trade back and take him in the 2nd round, which is still a huge reach. If he busts and it's that big of a reach GMs get fired, though in this particular instance that might not be the worst thing in the world.
 

vinnymac

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He's a promising prospect but there are some flaws. He's slotted at pick#77 for a reason. You don't select a guy that's supposed to go in the 3rd round at pick #5


He is a better prospect than Cam Newton imo. I watched enough on Newton to know that he not a top 10 pick eithier, but other people have him their. I watch Ryan Mallet play all season, and he not a top 10 pick eithier, but people have him their as well. Since I don't scout for a living, I think that Nevada Qb is just good as any other of prospect except the Missouri QB. I havn't learned how to spell his name eithier. Galbart i think it is.
 

kerouac9

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Levi Brown actually gave up 7 sacks, which is the same total as his 2009 at right tackle.

The way I'd rebuild the team is the same way we built it before: Keep a strong foundation of your core players (when Denny came in it was Adrian Wilson, Gerald Hayes, and Anquan Boldin), build through smart drafting (in this case it was Fitz, Karlos Dansby, Darnell Dockett, Deuce Lutui and Antonio Smith), and make smart, responsible free agent acquisitions (Warner, Bertrand Berry, Chike Okeafor, Robert Griffith, Kendrick Clancy, etc.).

I would not rather go 5-11 two years in a row and hope that you can draft 9 starting-caliber players with 9 picks in one draft, especially in a draft that I think is as relatively talent-poor as this one. I think this is a team that can go 5-11, 8-8, and then fight for playoff contention. Ask the Buffalo Bills if even 4-12 will get them their franchise quarterback. Heck, ask the Carolina Panthers if 2-14 is going to do it.

I think that this team make a mistake in not recognizing Dansby as a core player and securing his services. The question now is who are those core players on your roster? For me, it's Fitz, Dockett, Wilson, DRC, Lutui, L. Brown, and Calais Campbell. I'd add Beanie Wells to that list, but he has to earn his starting job from the thoroughly mediocre Tim Hightower. I think that you can go 8-8 or better with those guys.

So who are the other veterans on your roster that you can win with? I've already mentioned Tim Hightower. I'm trusting Krang that you can win with Rex Hadnot; I think you can win with Lyle Sendlein. I'm sure you can win with Kerry Rhodes, and I'm pretty sure about Greg Toler. I think that Brandon Keith is coming along, and I think that Paris Lenon is a good depth player who can contribute as a spot starter and on special teams. Clark Haggans has another good year left in him, and Will Davis and O'Brien Schofield can both become solid players or maybe better. Daryl Washington we've committed to at WILB, and Dan Williams looks very promising at NT. LaRod Stephens-Howling is a dynamic kick returner and may develop into a Darren Sproles-type back in the next year.

Those are 21 players on the 53 not counting special teams (Leach and Feeley are going to be back, I'm not sure about Graham). With those, we have 23. Of those, 16 are starters. You also have developing or solid backup players in guys like Rashard Johnson as a 3rd safety/nickel back and Jim Dray as a 2nd TE. Add those guys in and we're at 26. What we're missing is a rush WOLB (to compete with Schofield), SILB (starting), 3rd DT, backup NT, 3rd CB, TE, #2 WR, and, unfortunately, quarterback.

What's interesting about this offseason is that free agency will likely follow the draft. When usually you fill roster holes through free agency and then take the best players available at need positions in the draft, we have enough needs that we'll almost be able to take the best players available and slide them into need positions and still fill needs in free agency.

I don't think you'll be able to unload the 5th overall pick in this draft to anyone. I wouldn't unload Larry Fitzgerald for literally anything less than a Pro Bowl-caliber quarterback.

I think you can address the rush linebacker, inside linebacker, and tight end positions in this draft as starters. I think you can probably get the 3rd DT or backup NT, as well, along with some offensive line depth. I don't think you can address the QB position in this draft.

What I do think you can do is get more help in free agency. I'd sign QB Alex Smith (San Francisco) to a three-year contract for $25 million with $18 million guaranteed and another $12 million in incentives (for performance and playing time). I'd also sign QB Brodie Croyle (Kansas City) to a two-year, $8 million contract with $4 million guaranteed. I think that this gives at least some stability to the quarterback position for the next two years.

You have to do something more than draft at the rush linebacker position. I'd love to throw money at Ray Edwards to come over from Minnesota, but I don't think that's happening. Same with Mathias Kiwanuka of the Giants. I think that Tamba Hali is going to get a huge deal from the Chiefs. I'd pursue Manny Lawson (San Francisco) or Kamerion Wembley (Oakland) to compete with Schofield and a draft choice. I think you could get either of them for four years, $30 million, $12 million guaranteed. You have to overpay for pass rushers, but $7.5 million per season for a proven pass rush specialist isn't too much to pay.

I wanted Jimmy Kennedy (Minnesota) last year, and I hope to get him this year. He could backup at NT or DT.

We also have to get a #2 WR who is a cheaper alternative to Steve Breaston. I don't think we need a guy to Sharpie in at the position, but I want someone to compete with Early Doucet and Stephen Williams (a UDFA rookie who showed a lot of promise but got lost in the shuffle). Malcolm Floyd would be tasty if you can get him for four years, $22 million, $10 million guaranteed. I'd probably settle for giving Limas Sweed a chance on a two-year, $5 million contract with $1.5 million guaranteed. The free agent market is going to be glutted with big names. It'll be interesting to see how it shakes out if there is free agency this year.

With those moves, I think you get to 8-8 or better with solid coaching. Unfortunately, there's no way that any of them come to pass, and I think we'll be looking at a bad season next year and a head coaching search.
 

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Sorry K9. Levi is NOT part of the foundation nor the solution to the team. He is the antithesis of everything you assert. I dont know how much more horrid play you want to see to be convinced of this (unless of course you are just stirring the pot and leading us all on). Sounds to me you want another four years of it, give or take.

And there are no cooked up stats that will help your argument. He is just bad. Doesnt matter if we was the #5 pick in the 2007 draft or an UDFA, he is not a starting offensive lineman in this league. He is just flat out offensive ......

I also found this Walterfootball comment amusing when they talk about us needing a left tackle in the draft

Left Tackle: Levi Brown was probably the worst offensive lineman in the NFL this season. As a Penn State grad, I hang my head in shame. Nate Solder and Demarcus Love will be options in Round 2.
http://walterfootball.com/offseason2011arz.php
 
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Cheesebeef

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arodg, I appreciate that you want to be knowledgeable about the local team and are without a doubt NOT a troll and your football opinions are valued here, but dude, you gotta stop referring to the Cardinals in the "we" form. that just doesn't fly when you already have a team.
 

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1. I think any offseason plan for this team needs to include an upgrade at TE. Especially with so many solid FAs expected to be on the market. Outside of Dray, there isn't a TE on this roster worth keeping.

2. I don't see any need to replace Campbell as a starter. He didn't have the ultra-breakout year many predicted, but he played well when healthy. The current defensive line also consists of a first rounder, a second rounder and a recipient of a newly signed monster contract. Adding in another high second rounder seems like an overkill of resources.

3. Washington is a starter. The staff loves him, and he should improve after a full offseason with the team. I really don't think he'll be relegated to second string.
 
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ARodg

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arodg, I appreciate that you want to be knowledgeable about the local team and are without a doubt NOT a troll and your football opinions are valued here, but dude, you gotta stop referring to the Cardinals in the "we" form. that just doesn't fly when you already have a team.

I accept that and will try to correct that habbit. It's a bad habbit I seem to have picked up along the way.
 

Gee!

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Yeah, I'm a Packers fan who just got into ASU, so I'm trying to get into the Cardinals, because I don't want to be one of those douche bags who just yammers on about how great my team is. I want to be able to talk intelligently about the local team.

ARodg said:
Yeah, I'm a Packers fan who just got into ASU, so I'm trying to get into the Cardinals, becauseI don't want to be one of those douche bags who just yammers on about how great my team is. I want to be able to talk intelligently about the local team.

Looks like you failed..

:cats:
 
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ARodg

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Levi Brown actually gave up 7 sacks, which is the same total as his 2009 at right tackle.

The way I'd rebuild the team is the same way we built it before: Keep a strong foundation of your core players (when Denny came in it was Adrian Wilson, Gerald Hayes, and Anquan Boldin), build through smart drafting (in this case it was Fitz, Karlos Dansby, Darnell Dockett, Deuce Lutui and Antonio Smith), and make smart, responsible free agent acquisitions (Warner, Bertrand Berry, Chike Okeafor, Robert Griffith, Kendrick Clancy, etc.).

I would not rather go 5-11 two years in a row and hope that you can draft 9 starting-caliber players with 9 picks in one draft, especially in a draft that I think is as relatively talent-poor as this one. I think this is a team that can go 5-11, 8-8, and then fight for playoff contention. Ask the Buffalo Bills if even 4-12 will get them their franchise quarterback. Heck, ask the Carolina Panthers if 2-14 is going to do it.

I think that this team make a mistake in not recognizing Dansby as a core player and securing his services. The question now is who are those core players on your roster? For me, it's Fitz, Dockett, Wilson, DRC, Lutui, L. Brown, and Calais Campbell. I'd add Beanie Wells to that list, but he has to earn his starting job from the thoroughly mediocre Tim Hightower. I think that you can go 8-8 or better with those guys.

So who are the other veterans on your roster that you can win with? I've already mentioned Tim Hightower. I'm trusting Krang that you can win with Rex Hadnot; I think you can win with Lyle Sendlein. I'm sure you can win with Kerry Rhodes, and I'm pretty sure about Greg Toler. I think that Brandon Keith is coming along, and I think that Paris Lenon is a good depth player who can contribute as a spot starter and on special teams. Clark Haggans has another good year left in him, and Will Davis and O'Brien Schofield can both become solid players or maybe better. Daryl Washington we've committed to at WILB, and Dan Williams looks very promising at NT. LaRod Stephens-Howling is a dynamic kick returner and may develop into a Darren Sproles-type back in the next year.

Those are 21 players on the 53 not counting special teams (Leach and Feeley are going to be back, I'm not sure about Graham). With those, we have 23. Of those, 16 are starters. You also have developing or solid backup players in guys like Rashard Johnson as a 3rd safety/nickel back and Jim Dray as a 2nd TE. Add those guys in and we're at 26. What we're missing is a rush WOLB (to compete with Schofield), SILB (starting), 3rd DT, backup NT, 3rd CB, TE, #2 WR, and, unfortunately, quarterback.

What's interesting about this offseason is that free agency will likely follow the draft. When usually you fill roster holes through free agency and then take the best players available at need positions in the draft, we have enough needs that we'll almost be able to take the best players available and slide them into need positions and still fill needs in free agency.

I don't think you'll be able to unload the 5th overall pick in this draft to anyone. I wouldn't unload Larry Fitzgerald for literally anything less than a Pro Bowl-caliber quarterback.

I think you can address the rush linebacker, inside linebacker, and tight end positions in this draft as starters. I think you can probably get the 3rd DT or backup NT, as well, along with some offensive line depth. I don't think you can address the QB position in this draft.

What I do think you can do is get more help in free agency. I'd sign QB Alex Smith (San Francisco) to a three-year contract for $25 million with $18 million guaranteed and another $12 million in incentives (for performance and playing time). I'd also sign QB Brodie Croyle (Kansas City) to a two-year, $8 million contract with $4 million guaranteed. I think that this gives at least some stability to the quarterback position for the next two years.

You have to do something more than draft at the rush linebacker position. I'd love to throw money at Ray Edwards to come over from Minnesota, but I don't think that's happening. Same with Mathias Kiwanuka of the Giants. I think that Tamba Hali is going to get a huge deal from the Chiefs. I'd pursue Manny Lawson (San Francisco) or Kamerion Wembley (Oakland) to compete with Schofield and a draft choice. I think you could get either of them for four years, $30 million, $12 million guaranteed. You have to overpay for pass rushers, but $7.5 million per season for a proven pass rush specialist isn't too much to pay.

I wanted Jimmy Kennedy (Minnesota) last year, and I hope to get him this year. He could backup at NT or DT.

We also have to get a #2 WR who is a cheaper alternative to Steve Breaston. I don't think we need a guy to Sharpie in at the position, but I want someone to compete with Early Doucet and Stephen Williams (a UDFA rookie who showed a lot of promise but got lost in the shuffle). Malcolm Floyd would be tasty if you can get him for four years, $22 million, $10 million guaranteed. I'd probably settle for giving Limas Sweed a chance on a two-year, $5 million contract with $1.5 million guaranteed. The free agent market is going to be glutted with big names. It'll be interesting to see how it shakes out if there is free agency this year.

With those moves, I think you get to 8-8 or better with solid coaching. Unfortunately, there's no way that any of them come to pass, and I think we'll be looking at a bad season next year and a head coaching search.

If you don't think the Cards need to fix the O-Line then God have mercy on your soul. Lutui is pretty good but other than that. . .

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Even if the Cards did bring in a stud QB I'd be freaking out about the fact that he's going to get killed a million times a game. 50 sacks in a season is down right terrible. If the Bears didn't have the worst offensive line in NFL history the Cards would have given up the most sacks in the league.
 

Cheesebeef

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I accept that and will try to correct that habbit. It's a bad habbit I seem to have picked up along the way.

bravo dude. you could have easily gotten defensive there, but you seem pretty level headed about the cards and your pack. welcome to the board.
 

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