Article and JJ Question

[Pariah]

25 yr old first time starter.

Can we get off the "josh is a rookie" thing already? He has (and had) plenty of PT under his belt.

And, for the record, THAT'S the difference--Josh had a couple of years to settle into the NFL. We all saw what he is: a backup QB. Arrington can be forgiven some bad games early because he really IS a rookie and hasn't seen the game played at this speed before in his life.

That said, that's why Arrington needs to be a spot-duty player for a while. To learn the game in select situations instead of throwing him in the mix where his inexperience can hurt us on every play.

 

[clif]

Because I've seen Josh play in the NFL for quite a few games now. Nothing he has done has impressed me. I've seen JJ for 8 carries (preseason, schmeseason...Josh had a tremendous preseason but I doubt that would translate to real games).

If JJ looks terrible this season, I'm probably not going to defend him. He may turn around and TJ or Hearst us, but unless he shows it here, oh well. However, Josh has had the opportunities and has looked like a very talented athelete with very limited QB skills in areas that are not easy to fix. Pattern recognition, defense recognition, leading passes, etc. I still say that Josh is a great person, and wish he were good, but from what I've seen, in regular season NFL games, he couldn't lead this team to wins; the wins they got were on the defense, in spite of 3-n-outs galore the offense put up last year.

First... I don't recall Josh playing much before last season. I remember some mop up duty in 02.. I recall him ending 03 with 3 starts... last year was his first as the starter and he undoubtedly struggled, but made strides.

Second.. everything you mentioned as his problems are completely mentally aspects that most young Qb's struggle with. I don't think you can find many people that can argue that point.

Third.. the things that Josh was blamed for last year... (3 and outs) not putting the ball in the endzone...turnovers etc... are still the same things happening today. So I think it points toward what most so called "Josh supporters" were saying last year.. the problems on this team run deeper than the QB spot.

Now I will say that Warner is better at reading defenses, finding the open man, and being accurate... but lets not forget that Warner is better at that than %99 of the other QB's in NFL HISTORY so that is not surprising. Warner is the starter and that is the way it should be right now.

FYI.. I do find it hypocritical of DG to not pull Warner last week though. I base that solely on the reason he gave for pulling Josh in last year's game against ATL. Last year IIRC he cited turnovers and the need for a spark after Josh fumbled I believe 3 times. Well Kurt fumbled twice and threw a pick, but I don't remember it ever being considered that Warner would get pulled. I don't really think he should have been pulled.. I am just pointing out the hypocrisy.

*(see red desert.. I can be critical of DG)

 

[CardinalLaw]

First... I don't recall Josh playing much before last season. I remember some mop up duty in 02.. I recall him ending 03 with 3 starts... last year was his first as the starter and he undoubtedly struggled, but made strides.

Giant Strides......huh

GAMEDATE Opp RESULT GS Att Comp Pct Yds TD Int Rate Sac Yds Att Yds Avg Lg TD Fum Rec
09/12 @STLL 10-17 Yes 29 18 62.1 181 0 0 79.8 2 24 1 5 5.0 5 0 0 0
01/02 TBW 12-7 Yes 36 16 44.4 115 0 1 40.9 0 0 2 -2 -1.0 -1 0 0 0

 

[D-Dogg]

FYI.. I do find it hypocritical of DG to not pull Warner last week though. I base that solely on the reason he gave for pulling Josh in last year's game against ATL. Last year IIRC he cited turnovers and the need for a spark after Josh fumbled I believe 3 times. Well Kurt fumbled twice and threw a pick, but I don't remember it ever being considered that Warner would get pulled. I don't really think he should have been pulled.. I am just pointing out the hypocrisy.

*(see red desert.. I can be critical of DG)

I don't find it hypocritical. Josh LOST three fumbles in the red zone in a 6-3 loss, and didn't even pass for 200 yards in that game. Kurt lost ONE fumble and threw a pick in a game he threw for 350 for but just couldn't get the ball in the endzone. Terrible decisions at the end of the game, but he had far more production than Josh did. Not to say it was a great game...we needed at LEAST two touchdowns in our redzone trips. But it wasn't anywhere close to that debacle in Atlanta last year. 4 lost redzone fumbles...that game still haunts me.

This team doesn't have 3 and outs over and over again either...not like last year. We are actually moving the ball...however we seem to have an aversion to the endzone. That needs to change in a hurry.

 

[clif]

Can we get off the "josh is a rookie" thing already? He has (and had) plenty of PT under his belt.

And, for the record, THAT'S the difference--Josh had a couple of years to settle into the NFL. We all saw what he is: a backup QB. Arrington can be forgiven some bad games early because he really IS a rookie and hasn't seen the game played at this speed before in his life.

That said, that's why Arrington needs to be a spot-duty player for a while. To learn the game in select situations instead of throwing him in the mix where his inexperience can hurt us on every play.

Josh certainly was not a rookie, but to say... he has enough PT under his belt is pretty comical. We all know (or maybe we don't) that it takes QB's way longer to settle in to their position as opposed to a RB. Also for you to say he had a couple of years to settle in to the position?? HA!... mop up duty on the wrong end of blowouts? Starting the last 3 games for a lame duck coach? Is that what you consider when you made that statement?

Why don't you tell the Ravens, Lions, Bears, and to a lesser extent Jaguars, Chiefs, Raiders, Redskins, Chargers, Broncos... hey... it is time to pull the plug... your QB's have had plenty PT.. they should be producing.

 

[clif]

Giant Strides......huh

GAMEDATE Opp RESULT GS Att Comp Pct Yds TD Int Rate Sac Yds Att Yds Avg Lg TD Fum Rec
09/12@STLL 10-17Yes291862.11810079.8224155.05000
01/02TBW 12-7Yes361644.41150140.9002-2-1.0-1000

where did I say Giant strides?

 

[Russ Smith]

That said, that's why Arrington needs to be a spot-duty player for a while. To learn the game in select situations instead of throwing him in the mix where his inexperience can hurt us on every play.

Yep JJ is going to be a good player IMHO but there's no point playing him for experience this early in the season when Shipp is playing well enough. Who knows maybe JJ gets 100 yards if he doesn't have the flu Sunday, but right now all we know is Shipp has been more effective and until JJ figures out the NFL, we have to go with Shipp.

If we're 3-7 at some point then yeah I can see starting Arrington even if he's still struggling because you want to give him more reps, but right now at 0-2 the team has to come first.

 

[jstadvl]

It's time for

a reality check. Put your semantic issues asside. What your saying is you can justify YOUR belittleing of a player because...blah, blah,.. but no one else can in a different way?
I don't disagree with your JJ point, matter of fact, i agree, your issues with McCown are pretty contradictory to your "booing a player issues".
Hold everyone to the same standards, period. Including the fans.
I'm sorry Dog, but i don't see the difference between booing a player and saying a player sucks.
To be fair, am I a McCown fan? Yes. BUT, am I a Warner fan? Yes. I don't make excuses to behave or act badly towards one of our players and reason out why I can't do the same thing to another.
Sorry man, smiles aside, I think your wrong on this one.

 

[CardinalLaw]

where did I say Giant strides?

Strides-Giant Strides samething, he took a slide though, he acually got worse from game one to game 16. He had a couple favorable matchups against piss poor defenses that give off some sort false hopes for people.

 

[clif]

I don't find it hypocritical. Josh LOST three fumbles in the red zone in a 6-3 loss, and didn't even pass for 200 yards in that game. Kurt lost ONE fumble and threw a pick in a game he threw for 350 for but just couldn't get the ball in the endzone. Terrible decisions at the end of the game, but he had far more production than Josh did. Not to say it was a great game...we needed at LEAST two touchdowns in our redzone trips. But it wasn't anywhere close to that debacle in Atlanta last year. 4 lost redzone fumbles...that game still haunts me.

This team doesn't have 3 and outs over and over again either...not like last year. We are actually moving the ball...however we seem to have an aversion to the endzone. That needs to change in a hurry.

Ok we're splitting hairs on this point. turnovers are turnovers no matter where they happen in my book.

 

[D-Dogg]

Ok we're splitting hairs on this point. turnovers are turnovers no matter where they happen in my book.

Ok, but it was still 3-2, Josh then if you don't count them being in the redzone. That, coupled with a general lack of moving the ball still has Warner far outperforming Josh based on those two games alone. I don't see where Denny should see the same thing. Josh wasn't merely benched for his turnovers in that game; he was benched because he couldn't get the offense to move up and down the field. Kurt has been able to do that, so he should be safe, from a point of view that whatever was benchable for Josh would be the same for Kurt (though I don't know if DG would hold to that line of thinking...he does things because he wants and makes up the reason later...and I'm fine with that.)

You really feel that a turnover on your 40 is the same as, say an interception you throw in the endzone?

 

[D-Dogg]

I'm sorry Dog, but i don't see the difference between booing a player and saying a player sucks.

I don't know how you can't see that. Saying a player sucks to a bunch of fans versus booing a player who is actively playing, on the field. I don't get how it's remotely the same. I'm sure me telling fans that Josh sucks too really rattled him, some 70 yards away, while I'm damn POSITIVE than 3/4 of the stadium booing King after his first pass did rattle him.

This is the difference. Both QBs sucked, but I didn't boo any of them. I don't believe in booing players...if they are sucking, they know it. Boo refs, sure. Boo the other team, hell yeah. But don't ever boo your own.

There's a huge difference.

 

[clif]

You really feel that a turnover on your 40 is the same as, say an interception you throw in the endzone?

In some cases I could argue that it is worse. You not only kill your chance to score you give the other team great field position.

Look I am not claiming that Warner should have been pulled. I thought he should finish the game, but Josh should have also. IIRC we moved the ball fairly well that game last year, but hey it's over with.

Can you honestly say you don't see ANY hypocrisy in that?

 

[conraddobler]

Booing Warner if that's what was done seems kinda silly to me.

It was one game and he had tons of yards just couldn't punch it in.

One fumble and one interception dosen't get you pulled.

If Josh plays our season is probably done so I'm rooting for Kurt and don't want him pulled, once you sit him it's over he's not comming back.

I just hope we don't get Warner killed and are forced to play Josh, I don't want to hear the constant OMG he sucks posts it's tired and old.

It is ironic though that Kurts so far been unable to win a game and all we needed was a good QB right?

 

[clif]

Booing Warner if that's what was done seems kinda silly to me.

It was one game and he had tons of yards just couldn't punch it in.

One fumble and one interception dosen't get you pulled.

If Josh plays our season is probably done so I'm rooting for Kurt and don't want him pulled, once you sit him it's over he's not comming back.

I just hope we don't get Warner killed and are forced to play Josh, I don't want to hear the constant OMG he sucks posts it's tired and old.

It is ironic though that Kurts so far been unable to win a game and all we needed was a good QB right?

No Warner was not booed. They were talking about King last year.

It was 2 fumbles and a pick, but I wouldn't have pulled him either.

You could probably say that being that Josh is now the backup which in and of it's self leads most to believe that he isn't getting the same amount of reps and thus won't be ready.

Agreed.

Agreed as well.

 

[D-Dogg]

No Warner was not booed. They were talking about King last year.

It was 2 fumbles and a pick, but I wouldn't have pulled him either.

You could probably say that being that Josh is now the backup which in and of it's self leads most to believe that he isn't getting the same amount of reps and thus won't be ready.

Agreed.

Agreed as well.

It was one fumble and one pick. Only one lost fumble. At least that's what the stats say.

 

[D-Dogg]

It is ironic though that Kurts so far been unable to win a game and all we needed was a good QB right?

This is true.

The oline seems far worse than last year though, and it was supposed to be better.

 

[Russ Smith]

Ok, but it was still 3-2, Josh then if you don't count them being in the redzone. That, coupled with a general lack of moving the ball still has Warner far outperforming Josh based on those two games alone. I don't see where Denny should see the same thing. Josh wasn't merely benched for his turnovers in that game; he was benched because he couldn't get the offense to move up and down the field. Kurt has been able to do that, so he should be safe, from a point of view that whatever was benchable for Josh would be the same for Kurt (though I don't know if DG would hold to that line of thinking...he does things because he wants and makes up the reason later...and I'm fine with that.)

You really feel that a turnover on your 40 is the same as, say an interception you throw in the endzone?

Agree on the turnovers, where they are plays a big role, to me turning it over inside your own 20 is just as bad as in the redzone.

But to be fair, I'm pretty sure Clif is right that DG specifically said he benched Josh because of the fumbles, he said you have to protect the ball, I don't think moving the team or not was the issue the issue was his fumbles.

Overall I agree Warner is much better than Josh.

 

[D-Dogg]

Agree on the turnovers, where they are plays a big role, to me turning it over inside your own 20 is just as bad as in the redzone.

But to be fair, I'm pretty sure Clif is right that DG specifically said he benched Josh because of the fumbles, he said you have to protect the ball, I don't think moving the team or not was the issue the issue was his fumbles.

Overall I agree Warner is much better than Josh.

Hmm, I thought that DG said protecting the ball and moving the team. Maybe that's because that was MY major issue with Josh...that he kept our D on the field entire games. I forget...I'd like to see what his reasons were exactly.

Is there some hypocrisy there on my part? Sure...but then again, these two situations are not exactly the same. Different players, different issues, and even a different amount of turnovers (2 for warner this game, 3 for josh that one). So yeah, it's a bit hypocritical but at the same time, different situations don't call for the exact same response. And as someone pointed out earlier, if you bench Warner, you don't ever come back to him. Benching Josh last year was seen by many (including me) as a possible last ditch effort to light a fire under the dude and get him moving since he was so tentative...letting him know that inactivity with the offense was just as bad as bad results. You could do that with Josh; you can't with Kurt. You pull Kurt, it means the rest of the season belongs to Josh and to Navarre. Again, kind of a different scenario so even if the two games were IDENTICAL, the situtation behind the scenes might give DG pause to try the same tactics. Not to mention, he's seen Josh in games and hadn't seen King at that time. He knows what he's going to now.

I guess I'm trying to say that you can't say "these two situations are kind of the same, why didn't DG act the same" when there are many seemingly small but not unimportant details to consider.

 

[Russ Smith]

I guess I'm trying to say that you can't say "these two situations are kind of the same, why didn't DG act the same" when there are many seemingly small but not unimportant details to consider.

To me the biggest difference was one you already touched on, that Green knew who he had on his bench in Josh, but he didn't know who he had on his bench in King .I admit listening to the game I was thinking uh oh the evil Warner is popping up, but I certainly wasn't thinking pull him for Josh. Last year when Josh was struggling I WAS thinking put in King. Until I saw King play and then I was embarassed I ever said anything nice about the guy he clearly had lost any semblance of an arm that he ever had, and he never really had a good arm to begin with.

I think we can win with Warner but we've got to get the run game going so there's at least the threat of the run to keep people off Warner, otherwise Josh will be playing soon and Kurt will be on the bench playing "how many fingers" with a trainer.

 

[D-Dogg]

Last year when Josh was struggling I WAS thinking put in King. Until I saw King play and then I was embarassed I ever said anything nice about the guy he clearly had lost any semblance of an arm that he ever had, and he never really had a good arm to begin with.

Man, that sounds EXACTLY like me last year.

 

[clif]

Man, that sounds EXACTLY like me last year.

Think about what the Ravens fans must be thinking... They got Boller and he is just terrible, but then he goes down and Wright comes in to promptly throw 3 picks.

 

[duckfallas]

Green was saying the same thing about King since we saw Navarre the next week.

 

[Russ Smith]

Think about what the Ravens fans must be thinking... They got Boller and he is just terrible, but then he goes down and Wright comes in to promptly throw 3 picks.

to this day I'm amazed the Ravens traded up to get Boller. I saw the guy play in college and yeah he's an athlete and he has a decent arm but it was so obvious that he was not a polished QB and had no feel for the position. Tedford was just smart enough to say look I know what he can do and can't do so I'm only going to ask him to do what he CAN do. He had a big year and then great workouts and the rest is history.

about the only worse trade in recent history might be Washington giving up this years #1 pick in the Portis trade. They got a great player in Portis but can you imagine how dumb it's going to look if they win 4-5 games and then Denver gets to pick top 5 with their pick?

 

[daves]

Time of Possession in 2004

Hmm, I thought that DG said protecting the ball and moving the team. Maybe that's because that was MY major issue with Josh...that he kept our D on the field entire games.

This is a myth which for some reason seems to be widely held.

Fact: The Cardinals average time of possession in 2004 was 30:53, which was 10th best in the league. In games McCown played, it was slightly lower at 30:30, which would've ranked 11th. (Source: http://www.nfl.com/stats/teamsort/NFL/OFF-TOTAL/2004/regular?sort_col_1=4&_1:col_1=15, etc.)

These numbers do not include TOP in overtime, so anything over 30:00 is better than average.

A while back, someone made a similar claim with regard to the Cardinals' second game vs. San Francisco last year. I've already debunked the "Josh-led offense can't keep the defense off the field" myth with regard to that particular game here: http://arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showpost.php?p=762139&postcount=103

Just keepin' it real....

...dave