Ayton or Doncic?

[95pro]

I think Ayton has gone through a lot this season already and is doing very good. His number are good for a dynamic season.

by A LOT:

McD getting fired
His starting pg Canaan getting released
maybe a mentor in Chandler getting released
lineup changes and shuffling
booker injury (another pg)
tj injury

Doncic has had a pretty steady roster and a great established coach. The mavs already had Smith JR and Jordan, with Barnes a second level guy and Barrea a veteran pg.

The mavs are in a better position to offer Doncic better opportunities.

 

[SunnyBaller]

Man you don’t know this board at all.

Well that's just an outside observation about this board, if it changes I'll adjust that statement accordingly

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Well that's just an outside observation about this board, if it changes I'll adjust that statement accordingly

You’re entitled to your opinion. But few things on this board (as in life) are as black and white as the picture you paint.

 

[Russ Smith]

It’s funny to laugh now at the people who said Doncic’s ceiling would be Joe Ingles

He reminds me a bit of Chris Mullin, not the shooter Mullin was but he has the same ability to drive in at what seems to be slow motion, and make plays. Kyle Anderson is somewhat like that but Kyle is much slower, and much longer, and not as athletic as Luka.

I don't know that Doncic will be the elite scorer Mullin was, but he's already probably a better defender.

I am surprised how good he is.

I do think he's a perfect fit with the Mavs because they can play him as a Point Forward and let Smith Jr do what he does best, score. Smith Jr is a freak athlete but he's a ball stopper and the more Luka has the ball, the better the Mavs will be in the long run IMO.

 

[SunnyBaller]

You’re entitled to your opinion. But few things on this board (as in life) are as black and white as the picture you paint.

Black and White huh ha? Please explain how? And I'd try to refrain from jumping to your own conclusions like you did earlier, it'll strengthen your argument.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I’m going to laugh in 4 years when we look back at all the people that said 19 year old Doncic was at his ceiling 25 games into his rookie year in the nba.

Obviously it's somewhat foolish to assume he won't get any better, but considering his skill set and how pollished his game is it is not out of the realm of possibility that he is closer to his ceiling than most guys are when they are 19 years old.

I feel like people focus a bit too much on the age of player's when making the argument of how much better they will get, but basketball experience is just as, if not more important than age when talking about ceiling.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Obviously it's somewhat foolish to assume he won't get any better, but considering his skill set and how pollished his game is it is not out of the realm of possibility that he is closer to his ceiling than most guys are when they are 19 years old.

I feel like people focus a bit too much on the age of player's when making the argument of how much better they will get, but basketball experience is just as, if not more important than age when talking about ceiling.

Sometimes age (meaning youth) means very little but sometimes it means a lot. I think you have to know the players background AND watch him play before deciding whether it's a key issue or just a number. You can't just look at every 21 year old and explain away their weaknesses because of their age.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Sometimes age (meaning youth) means very little but sometimes it means a lot. I think you have to know the players background AND watch him play before deciding whether it's a key issue or just a number. You can't just look at every 21 year old and explain away their weaknesses because of their age.

Which is why I suspect Doncic to be closer to his ceiling than a lot of others his age. He already displays a high degree of skill and IQ in his game and is seemingly getting the most out of his limited athleticism. He will get better as he continues to fine tune things that he isn't perfect at, but I doubt it will be anything dramatic.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Which is why I suspect Doncic to be closer to his ceiling than a lot of others his age. He already displays a high degree of skill and IQ in his game and is seemingly getting the most out of his limited athleticism. He will get better as he continues to fine tune things that he isn't perfect at, but I doubt it will be anything dramatic.

As do I. He still has the NBA game to learn and master but he clearly understands basketball, he has an adult frame and his skills are well developed. His diet and exercise regimen probably needs work but I agree, he appears to be close to being a finished product.

 

[Mainstreet]

He reminds me a bit of Chris Mullin, not the shooter Mullin was but he has the same ability to drive in at what seems to be slow motion, and make plays. Kyle Anderson is somewhat like that but Kyle is much slower, and much longer, and not as athletic as Luka.

I don't know that Doncic will be the elite scorer Mullin was, but he's already probably a better defender.

I am surprised how good he is.

I do think he's a perfect fit with the Mavs because they can play him as a Point Forward and let Smith Jr do what he does best, score. Smith Jr is a freak athlete but he's a ball stopper and the more Luka has the ball, the better the Mavs will be in the long run IMO.

I've always like the Mullin comparison as well. It's good to have a fellow supporter.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

As do I. He still has the NBA game to learn and master but he clearly understands basketball, he has an adult frame and his skills are well developed. His diet and exercise regimen probably needs work but I agree, he appears to be close to being a finished product.

See and while I agree that his frame and athleticism likely won’t improve by leaps and bounds (though it’s silly to say they won’t at all at the age of 19), I think the very point you raise is being under appreciated. Learning the nba. Basketball is a game of amazing athleticism but also nuances. When to rotate where, a clutch here, a bump there, which refs allow what, tendencies of your opponents, knowing the where’s and what’s of your teammates, increasing shooting percentage and range, learning how to better control your body as it evolves (and regardless of how mature his body is, all 19 year old bodies have maturation coming). These are all things that may be somewhat smaller or more difficult to identify than physical changes, but in the aggregate for those with high basketball IQs (and Doncic surely has that) they become a huge growth projection. Players that cannot rely on mere athleticism are constantly forced to adapt and evolve and improve their game lest they be left behind. So while players like Ayton and Bagley surely have more growth ability, most of them don’t endeavor to maximize that growth whereas those not as blessed but showing drive (like Doncic) are likely a better bet to maximize the peripheral skills that will give them an advantage. So yes I think dincic’s ultimate ceiling is lower, but i think the likelihood of his making out his ceiling is likely greater.

At the end of the day I just think it’s folly to denigrate Doncic and what he might become because none of us know, butvwith the glimpses he’s providing those that downgrade him are more likely to look foolish than those who have heightened expectations.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I've seen a few people on here call him a bust, or say that we wasted another top pick, gave him horrible player comparisons or things along those lines, there's two clear sides to this board people who actually discuss the way he plays and understands what's going on and people who it's obvious just read box scores and assume he sucked because he doesn't have 30-15 and 6 blocks

When you state “there’s two clear sides to this board people who actually discuss the way he plays and understands what’s going on and people who it’s obvious just read box scores and assume he sucked . . .” you’re attempting to make gray discussions pretty black and white. I don’t know what to tell ya if you don’t see that. Most people here, at least those who are reasonable and analytical, fall into the gray areas and not your “two clear sides.”

And I have no idea what “conclusions” you think I “jumped to” but I’m happy to keep arguing with you if you wish to continue with your misplaced condescension.

 

[Cheesebeef]

When you state “there’s two clear sides to this board people who actually discuss the way he plays and understands what’s going on and people whinits onviius just read box scores and assume he sucked . . .” you’re attempting to makie gray discussions pretty black and white. I don’t know what to tell ya if you don’t see that. Most people here, at least those who are reasonable and analytical, fall into the gray areas and not your “two clear sides.”

And I have no idea what “conclusions” you think I “jumped to” but I’m happy to keep arguing with you if you wish to continue with your misplaced condescension.

why?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

why?

Feeding trolls when bored?

 

[SunnyBaller]

There is so much more to basketball than athleticism. Doncic is already performing better than I expected this year and i suspected he’d be pretty good. You’re either (a) too much of homer to even consider that someone other than Ayton could be the best player outta this draft, (b) one of those fans that doesn’t believe a white guy can be a great player (like isiah thomas’ stupid thoughts about Larry bird), (c) part of the anti-euro crowd, and (d) have extremely limited knowledge about basketball and the nba.

Those aren't conclusions ? After giving my opinion on who I think is better now and who I think will be better later you basically said I was either an idiot or racist? I'm all for debating opinions but this all started with this comment.

 

[AzStevenCal]

See and while I agree that his frame and athleticism likely won’t improve by leaps and bounds (though it’s silly to say they won’t at all at the age of 19), I think the very point you raise is being under appreciated. Learning the nba. Basketball is a game of amazing athleticism but also nuances. When to rotate where, a clutch here, a bump there, which refs allow what, tendencies of your opponents, knowing the where’s and what’s of your teammates, increasing shooting percentage and range, learning how to better control your body as it evolves (and regardless of how mature his body is, all 19 year old bodies have maturation coming). These are all things that may be somewhat smaller or more difficult to identify than physical changes, but in the aggregate for those with high basketball IQs (and Doncic surely has that) they become a huge growth projection. Players that cannot rely on mere athleticism are constantly forced to adapt and evolve and improve their game lest they be left behind. So while players like Ayton and Bagley surely have more growth ability, most of them don’t endeavor to maximize that growth whereas those not as blessed but showing drive (like Doncic) are likely a better bet to maximize the peripheral skills that will give them an advantage. So yes I think dincic’s ultimate ceiling is lower, but i think the likelihood of his making out his ceiling is likely greater.

At the end of the day I just think it’s folly to denigrate Doncic and what he might become because none of us know, butvwith the glimpses he’s providing those that downgrade him are more likely to look foolish than those who have heightened expectations.

I can't disagree with any of this.

 

[leclerc]

Who is more athletic. Present day Larry Bird or Luka Doncic?

Point is if you're good you don't have to have world class athleticism.

 

[jf-08]

See and while I agree that his frame and athleticism likely won’t improve by leaps and bounds (though it’s silly to say they won’t at all at the age of 19), I think the very point you raise is being under appreciated. Learning the nba. Basketball is a game of amazing athleticism but also nuances. When to rotate where, a clutch here, a bump there, which refs allow what, tendencies of your opponents, knowing the where’s and what’s of your teammates, increasing shooting percentage and range, learning how to better control your body as it evolves (and regardless of how mature his body is, all 19 year old bodies have maturation coming). These are all things that may be somewhat smaller or more difficult to identify than physical changes, but in the aggregate for those with high basketball IQs (and Doncic surely has that) they become a huge growth projection. Players that cannot rely on mere athleticism are constantly forced to adapt and evolve and improve their game lest they be left behind. So while players like Ayton and Bagley surely have more growth ability, most of them don’t endeavor to maximize that growth whereas those not as blessed but showing drive (like Doncic) are likely a better bet to maximize the peripheral skills that will give them an advantage. So yes I think dincic’s ultimate ceiling is lower, but i think the likelihood of his making out his ceiling is likely greater.

At the end of the day I just think it’s folly to denigrate Doncic and what he might become because none of us know, butvwith the glimpses he’s providing those that downgrade him are more likely to look foolish than those who have heightened expectations.

Quality stuff right there.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Quality stuff right there.

reverend!

 

[SunnyBaller]

Here's a question for everyone, as of the last two weeks the Mavs have been on a lossing streak while the suns are winning/competing and ayton is showing huge improvement from early avg 20+ and 14reb . If the Mavs don't make the playoffs is doncic still a lock for ROTY ?

 

[BC867]

Here's a question for everyone, as of the last two weeks the Mavs have been on a lossing streak while the suns are winning/competing and ayton is showing huge improvement from early avg 20+ and 14reb . If the Mavs don't make the playoffs is doncic still a lock for ROTY ?

My response is that . . . how can there be a lock for Rookie of the Year after a quarter of the season?

There is a lot of time left. As evidenced by the Suns not being blown out by 20-30 points regularly within the past five games, which affects rookies as well as veterans.

 

[elindholm]

Here's a question for everyone, as of the last two weeks the Mavs have been on a lossing streak while the suns are winning/competing and ayton is showing huge improvement from early avg 20+ and 14reb . If the Mavs don't make the playoffs is doncic still a lock for ROTY ?

Probably. Doncic has been better than I expected and is definitely off to a very good start, but it's still true that there's a lot of weird fantasy projection going on, by whom I can only assume are other semi-athletic white guys who see some sort of identity redemption in him.

 

[SunnyBaller]

My response is that . . . how can there be a lock for Rookie of the Year after a quarter of the season?
/QUOTE]


I mean ask ESPN and really most people right now, but of course there's plenty of time left . No matter what I think doncic wins 100% if he gets the Mavs into the playoffs , but if they don't and ayton continues this kind of progress especially defensively I think he could take it

 

[GatorAZ]

Here's a question for everyone, as of the last two weeks the Mavs have been on a lossing streak while the suns are winning/competing and ayton is showing huge improvement from early avg 20+ and 14reb . If the Mavs don't make the playoffs is doncic still a lock for ROTY ?

As good as Ayton has been of late...

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[Hoop Head]

Here's a question for everyone, as of the last two weeks the Mavs have been on a lossing streak while the suns are winning/competing and ayton is showing huge improvement from early avg 20+ and 14reb . If the Mavs don't make the playoffs is doncic still a lock for ROTY ?

If the Mavs miss the playoffs I don't think Doncic is a lack for the ROY. I'm probably in the minority now because I don't consider him a lock right now anyways but I know the press will credit Doncic with a Mavericks playoff appearance and vote for him regardless of whether he's the reason or not. I do think he's a big reason in their turnaround but having a relatively healthy Barnes and Matthews is also helping them plus having a reinvigorated rim protector in DeAndre Jordan. It's a combination of things that have turned the Mavs around but Doncic is getting the lions share of accolades for it.

That's not to say Ayton is a clear cut #2 in voting. If the Suns can play close to 500 basketball the rest of the way then I think there's a chance he's #2 or considered for it but there are other rookies helping their teams like Kevin Knox, Wendal Carter, Jaren Jackson, and Trae Young that deserve some recognition as well. The only lock at this point is Luka for 1st Rookie team. He's not losing that spot and I don't think he deserves to either. He's definitely a top 5 rookie this year.