AYTON TRADED!

[Covert Rain]

Yep.

Still don't like the trade.

Ayton, sleep walking through a game, provides as much on offense and is an immeasurably better defender. Nurk is flat out terrible on defense, dude is glued to the floor. I'm also already sick of his low post, flat footed weird layup thing he does that almost always gets blocked or just clanks away. He has a decent midrange game and if he has his momentum moving towards the rim he can finish, but his post game is awful and his 3 point shooting is... awful.

It's still early but the we have become a turnstile in the paint. We are currently the 6th worst team defending the paint. We also are top 10 in giving up points off of turnovers. The only reason the wheels have not completely fallen off is because we reversed from last year being one of the worst teams giving up 2nd chance points in the NBA to the 3rd best and we are #2 in blocks. Steals have also fallen way off. We are currently #13 in Def Efficiency. That has to do with other pieces we have attained (Grayson Allen) and the revamping of the bench which has swapped some defensive categories strengths and weaknesses.

In terms of a DIRECT COMPARISON, so far we are worse defensively with Nurk in the lineup. Ayton is playing better than Nurk offensively overall as well. I know we are hanging our hat on more consistency but it's looking like a downgrade on both ends of the court purely from an overall stat perspective (minus assists) overall. Although the gap offensively is much smaller verses defense. I kind of expected that though knowing we were not going to get full value for Ayton. My hope was the overall package would be a net positive.

We still have not played with a full deck though and our lineups are all screwed up. So, not reading that much into this just yet. However, the trend is a tad disturbing. I think though with Book in the lineup, things like steals and overall defense gets a boost. That will settle the rotation down as well.

 

[BirdGangThing]

Also I still have yet to see Nurk be bullied by multiple PGs

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Ayton sleepwalking through a game does not provide what Nurkic does on offense. Nurkic draws fouls, has been to the line 40 times already to Ayton's 3, yes 3 times, all season. Nurkic is also averaging almost 4 times the number of assists a game. He's not nearly the deadweight Ayton is. Yes, Ayton is shooting better but that's all he really has going in his favor over Nurkic offensively. Nurkic needs to start hitting 3's if he's going to continue taking them but he's has to play to primary or secondary playmaker too often with Booker out and Durant just forcing bad shots to try and get himself going. I'd like to see KD start passing a lot more but that's a different topic. Nurkic has done a decent job defending the paint, as well as Ayton has, so while he's not capable of guarding guys on the perimeter, that isn't his job as a 7' 265 pound Center either. Guys need to fight through screens better or rotate quicker to stop shooters. We aren't losing because opposing teams are creating so many good looks from outside while Nurkic is one of the 2 Suns defending the 2 man game.

As mentioned by @BirdGangThing also you're entirely ignoring Grayon Allen's contributions also, which are a result of unloading Ayton. We're getting far more from Nurkic and Allen than Ayton could provide. Nurkic alone has a better VORP than Ayton. Almost every advanced stat is in Nurk's favor outside of shooting percentage, which he more than makes up for by finding teammates for baskets and drawing fouls.

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3 free throws. Let that sink in. I didn’t think he could worse in that area, much less MUCH MUCH worse. IMO there’s nothing more damning of Ayton’s game than that stat.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Nurk and Ayton are both dogs. One because he lacks athleticism, the other because he lacks heart.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Nurk and Ayton are both dogs. One because he lacks athleticism, the other because he lacks heart.

Yeah, I was looking for the opposite of Ayton when we traded him...a mad dog that only cared about defense and rebounding. Nurk gives us a different level of frustration.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Yeah, I was looking for the opposite of Ayton when we traded him...a mad dog that only cared about defense and rebounding. Nurk gives us a different level of frustration.

Nurk gives us a less expensive version of frustration. Still disappointed we couldn't get more but still believe we won the deal.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Nurk gives us a less expensive version of frustration. Still disappointed we couldn't get more but still believe we won the deal.

Probably right. Maybe Book makes everything ok when he returns, but you have to squint pretty hard to see the makings of a championship team here. I'm not sure the Nurk deal did enough to put us over the hump. Beal's back is making me sad.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Nurk gives us a less expensive version of frustration. Still disappointed we couldn't get more but still believe we won the deal.

Same if only because of how good Allen’s been.

 

[BirdGangThing]

Nurk and Ayton are both dogs. One because he lacks athleticism, the other because he lacks heart.

20pts / 17 rebounds / 8 assists are not dog numbers

Nurk's issues lie with consistency - Nurk's issues lie with defending American Centers (in the paint) - Nurk's issues lie with trying to dribble the ball in between rebounding it and putting it back up

But Nurk also has 46 assists!! And some of those had to be for 3 so we're talking 100 pts - in just assists alone - in just 10 games - not a dog

(we'd also have a couple more losses if it weren't for Nurk)

 

[95pro]

Ayton sleepwalking through a game does not provide what Nurkic does on offense. Nurkic draws fouls, has been to the line 40 times already to Ayton's 3, yes 3 times, all season. Nurkic is also averaging almost 4 times the number of assists a game. He's not nearly the deadweight Ayton is. Yes, Ayton is shooting better but that's all he really has going in his favor over Nurkic offensively. Nurkic needs to start hitting 3's if he's going to continue taking them but he's has to play to primary or secondary playmaker too often with Booker out and Durant just forcing bad shots to try and get himself going. I'd like to see KD start passing a lot more but that's a different topic. Nurkic has done a decent job defending the paint, as well as Ayton has, so while he's not capable of guarding guys on the perimeter, that isn't his job as a 7' 265 pound Center either. Guys need to fight through screens better or rotate quicker to stop shooters. We aren't losing because opposing teams are creating so many good looks from outside while Nurkic is one of the 2 Suns defending the 2 man game.

As mentioned by @BirdGangThing also you're entirely ignoring Grayon Allen's contributions also, which are a result of unloading Ayton. We're getting far more from Nurkic and Allen than Ayton could provide. Nurkic alone has a better VORP than Ayton. Almost every advanced stat is in Nurk's favor outside of shooting percentage, which he more than makes up for by finding teammates for baskets and drawing fouls.

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All this tells me is that DA needs to work on his 3pt attempts.

 

[BirdGangThing]

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[Chaplin]

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LOL

 

[BirdGangThing]

I'm just saying - Grayson Allen has shot 3 times as many free throws as DeAndre Ayton - yessir that little Ted Cruz looking dude is creating more contact lol and Grayson has also outscored Ayton so far

 

[BirdGangThing]

Combined .850 from the free throw line - Allen @ 100% and Nurk @ 70%

49 Free Throws attempted
14 blocks combined
19 steals combined
34 three pointers made
75 assists combined
145 rebounds combined
And 223 points in just 10 games

Not to mention the game where Allen had 8 three pointers and Nurk went ballistic

 

[AzStevenCal]

Probably right. Maybe Book makes everything ok when he returns, but you have to squint pretty hard to see the makings of a championship team here. I'm not sure the Nurk deal did enough to put us over the hump. Beal's back is making me sad.

I thought if everything came together perfectly we'd have a 5 to 10% chance of winning it all. So far though we're not even looking like a playoff team. If Booker doesn't get healthy soon and if Beal continues to play like he's wearing a straight jacket, we're going to be very disappointed around here.

 

[Superbone]

Probably right. Maybe Book makes everything ok when he returns, but you have to squint pretty hard to see the makings of a championship team here. I'm not sure the Nurk deal did enough to put us over the hump. Beal's back is making me sad.

It's going to take a lot more than hard squinting. What happened to the scrappy team that Vogel promised?

 

[Yuma]

Yep.

Still don't like the trade.

Ayton, sleep walking through a game, provides as much on offense and is an immeasurably better defender. Nurk is flat out terrible on defense, dude is glued to the floor. I'm also already sick of his low post, flat footed weird layup thing he does that almost always gets blocked or just clanks away. He has a decent midrange game and if he has his momentum moving towards the rim he can finish, but his post game is awful and his 3 point shooting is... awful.

I gotta call foul on this. Yes Nurkic is 30% athletic of Ayton. He can't jump. BUT, he's sneaky like a bigger Saric. He gets to the line 100X more than Ayton, I know that's an over exaggeration, but he does get to the line a lot more AND he makes his free throws! Plus, Ayton does NOT get the assists that Nurkic does. Nurkic is a baby Jokic. I think from now on the Suns should just go after European Centers. LOL!

 

[Mainstreet]

I gotta call foul on this. Yes Nurkic is 30% athletic of Ayton. He can't jump. BUT, he's sneaky like a bigger Saric. He gets to the line 100X more than Ayton, I know that's an over exaggeration, but he does get to the line a lot more AND he makes his free throws! Plus, Ayton does NOT get the assists that Nurkic does. Nurkic is a baby Jokic. I think from now on the Suns should just go after European Centers. LOL!

If I'm reading this correctly, you seem to be saying Nurkic has only 30% of Ayton's athletic ability. If so, I can't argue this. You may be correct.

"Nurkic is a baby Jokic." ??? Cough, cough. Maybe before injuries set his career back.

 

[Hoop Head]

I gotta call foul on this. Yes Nurkic is 30% athletic of Ayton. He can't jump. BUT, he's sneaky like a bigger Saric. He gets to the line 100X more than Ayton, I know that's an over exaggeration, but he does get to the line a lot more AND he makes his free throws! Plus, Ayton does NOT get the assists that Nurkic does. Nurkic is a baby Jokic. I think from now on the Suns should just go after European Centers. LOL!

Have you seen their FT totals? No need for the disclaimer. I'd genuinely find it funny if someone took exception to you claim considering Nurkic averages 5.3 FT a game to Ayton's 0.4 right now.

 

[Phrazbit]

Ya'll are hung up on the free throw totals... I don't give a crap.

Nurkic is a sub par starter in good circumstances, put him up against a team who forces him to move on defense and Nurkic is a freaking train wreck. He is a REALLY bad defender against any team that can force him to move around, which is the majority of teams in the league.

And his free throw rate doesn't blow my hair back either because his shooting percentages suck. I don't care if you 4 or 5 free throws a game if you're building a brick house when attempting field goals.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Ya'll are hung up on the free throw totals... I don't give a crap.

Nurkic is a sub par starter in good circumstances, put him up against a team who forces him to move on defense and Nurkic is a freaking train wreck. He is a REALLY bad defender against any team that can force him to move around, which is the majority of teams in the league.

And his free throw rate doesn't blow my hair back either because his shooting percentages suck. I don't care if you 4 or 5 free throws a game if you're building a brick house when attempting field goals.

You also completely ignore almost 5 assists per game from Nurkic to Ayton’s 1, while conveniently ignoring Ayton’s WOEFUL defensive stats last year and the fact that his offense has fallen off a cliff this season without anyone to set him up with easy buckets.

Reality is they are both below average Centers who make almost zero positive impact on the court.

The idea that Ayton would be making more of an impact on this team that he literally quit on in the playoffs is fallacy. And if not for the trade, we wouldn’t have Allen, who’s been one of the only consistent players on this team all season.

 

[Phrazbit]

You also completely ignore almost 5 assists per game from Nurkic to Ayton’s 1, while conveniently ignoring Ayton’s WOEFUL defensive stats last year and the fact that his offense has fallen off a cliff this season without anyone to set him up with easy buckets.

Reality is they are both below average Centers who make almost zero positive impact on the court.

The idea that Ayton would be making more of an impact on this team that he literally quit on in the playoffs is fallacy. And if not for the trade, we wouldn’t have Allen, who’s been one of the only consistent players on this team all season.

Not ignoring the assists... don't care. He sucks under the hoop, he sucks from 3, he can't defend anyone. I don't give a crap if he can pass a bit (while also having some brutal turnovers). The negatives far out weight the positives... if there are positives... rebounding... every other game?

Ayton's defense last year was disapointing, but there is no way to claim it was "woeful", he was still an above average defensive big, he wasn't what he was in '21, that is true, and the drop off was frustrating. However, Nurkic is ass on defense, HE is the guy teams target and torch over and over.

As for Allen... he's averaging 12 points a game in 31 minutes. Woo hoo. His punchable face as a decent 8th man does little to make up for a disaster of a front court and a team that can do nothing on the interior.

Ayton is a clown... he quit... twice... I know. He still had value, as annoying as he was his good still outweighed the bad. We should have tried to rehab his value and traded him for a better deal.

We settled for scraps.

 

[jf-08]

We settled for scraps.

Nothing better was available.

 

[Phrazbit]

Nothing better was available.

Hold out for better… hope Ayton under a new staff can up his value.

I don’t see the offers getting worse.

 

[Hoop Head]

Ayton is a clown... he quit... twice... I know. He still had value, as annoying as he was his good still outweighed the bad. We should have tried to rehab his value and traded him for a better deal.

He had enough value we got Nurkic, Allen, and Little for him and Camara. That's his value. His value wasn't going up, he didn't want to be here and honestly it doesn't seem like he wants to play competitive basketball either. We're lucky we got what we did for him. His value was higher before this past off-season but I don't believe we ever could have received what you and others still upset about the trade believed we could get. We know the Nets wanted nothing to do with him, going back to the 2022 off-season when Durant requested a trade. We should have traded him after the finals run, when his value was highest but I don't think anyone was pushing for it at that point. There were rumors we almost traded him during the 2021-22 season for Sabonis but Ayton's value wasn't high enough then to get a deal done.

This idea we were going to get a more consistent Center for him as well as another starting caliber player, and valuable draft picks or young players was always foolish. Why would any other team downgrade at Center to help us upgrade? It's illogical. We did the best we could, which has been pretty good. We got a Center who is producing within 10% of Ayton across the board, who is making less than half what Ayton did, and we added Allen who has been a lot more than an 8th man.

You're usually logical and I agree with your views and opinions but you're so far off here I don't understand why you believe Ayton had the value of an All-Star or All-NBA player. He was a #1 pick but ever since that selection was made, the value of that pick has gone. We could have received much more if we traded that pick that became Ayton than we ever could have for Ayton and Ayton's value continued to shrink as more people saw him phone it in.