Ayton's Development at the Quarter Mark of 2018-2019 Season

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It's not ignoring defense... christ.

The dude called him a bust and compared him to Michael Asscandy, it's an absurd comparison.

Yeah I don’t see a kandiman comp, but maybe like me he’s referring more to impact verses game. Although kandi’s numbers were even worse than Benoit’s.

 

[sdscard4]

It's not ignoring defense... christ.

The dude called him a bust and compared him to Michael Asscandy, it's an absurd comparison.

The dude is thinking soft not bust and was thinking Asskandi but said Ayton rebounds. Hence soft. But thanks for putting words in my mouth.

 

[sdscard4]

Yeah I don’t see a kandiman comp, but maybe like me he’s referring more to impact verses game. Although kandi’s numbers were even worse than Benoit’s.

I was a youngin in Calif. I hated the Lakers and would always watch the Clippers I loved Benoit!

 

[Phrazbit]

The dude is thinking soft not bust and was thinking Asskandi but said Ayton rebounds. Hence soft. But thanks for putting words in my mouth.

When you vaguely refer a "four letter word" about a rookie you think is failing AND compare him to Asskandi at the same time you lose the right to say "thanks for putting words in my mouth" when "bust" is what comes to mind, IMO.

 

[sdscard4]

When you vaguely refer a "four letter word" about a rookie you think is failing AND compare him to Asskandi at the same time you lose the right to say "thanks for putting words in my mouth" when "bust" is what comes to mind, IMO.

I think he started out well and is still young. But in my opinion he needs a coach who can develop him and teach him to not be soft. He should be fed that rock 10× more than what he's getting. Offense should go through him. This head coach is not a coach for Ayton. Hopefully he can become what we all think he can be and we can get our team back in the process.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

When you vaguely refer a "four letter word" about a rookie you think is failing AND compare him to Asskandi at the same time you lose the right to say "thanks for putting words in my mouth" when "bust" is what comes to mind, IMO.

Well, I guess that’s on you. I thought soft. Apparently i was right.

 

[jlove]

I love the way Ayton started the game tonight. Strong, decisive, seemed to be involved. Then he sat down. When he came back and for the rest of the game, putrid play. Soft, wouldn't box out, no defensive awareness. Hell, several breakaways my the Magic and instead of contesting he jogged down, conceding the basket like he had no desire to be there. It's getting annoying as hell to see his lack of desire and fight.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Well, I guess that’s on you. I thought soft. Apparently i was right.

soft was my first thought as well.

 

[Phrazbit]

Well, I guess that’s on you. I thought soft. Apparently i was right.

Okay, but if someone doesn't want "words to be put in your mouth" then don't be all vague allude to a "certain four letter word" followed by a comparison to one of the most renowned busts ever.

Soft, fine, I can see the fear that he is soft. Personally, I think it's more a question of getting him engaged on both ends. The guy is willing to body up to other centers, it's his help D that is really bad right now.

What frustrates me is how often guys use him for picks and he ends up with a wide open lane to thunder down and the ball handler instead looks to pass it to the wings, IMO if he gets a few chances to crush some poor wing defender who had to rush to the lane it will get Ayton doing his FLEX routine and fire him up on both ends.

He calls himself a rhythm player and the Suns are doing a crap job of getting him in a rhythm to do anything but 5-10 foot shots and set picks. Give him the ball with momentum going towards the hoop, not just on post ups or ally oops.

 

[JCSunsfan]

We forget that this kid is 18 months out of high school. Yeah. He is inconsistent and needs to work on aggressiveness and defense. But I am happy we have him and am convinced he will get better. He is an automatic double double right now.

 

[jlove]

He should be averaging at least 4 fouls a game right now. He's scared and lost on defense, whether 1 on 1 and help defense. He should be attacking on defense going for every rebound and blocked shots. Hell, just tonight, he finishes the game with only 2 fouls. He gave up on defense way too often, playing soft.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Okay, but if someone doesn't want "words to be put in your mouth" then don't be all vague allude to a "certain four letter word" followed by a comparison to one of the most renowned busts ever.

Soft, fine, I can see the fear that he is soft. Personally, I think it's more a question of getting him engaged on both ends. The guy is willing to body up to other centers, it's his help D that is really bad right now.

What frustrates me is how often guys use him for picks and he ends up with a wide open lane to thunder down and the ball handler instead looks to pass it to the wings, IMO if he gets a few chances to crush some poor wing defender who had to rush to the lane it will get Ayton doing his FLEX routine and fire him up on both ends.

He calls himself a rhythm player and the Suns are doing a crap job of getting him in a rhythm to do anything but 5-10 foot shots and set picks. Give him the ball with momentum going towards the hoop, not just on post ups or ally oops.

Koko is criminally underusing his skills on offense.

 

[1Sun]

Koko is criminally underusing his skills on offense.

One of a number of reasons I think Kokoskov needs to be ousted ASAP, perception be damned. This franchise cannot afford under any circumstance for Ayton not to realize his potential.

 

[Phrazbit]

Koko is criminally underusing his skills on offense.

If we had the miracle of 30 year old Steve Nash on this team I think Ayton would be demolishing the stats Amare put up at the same age. Ayton has even started to bail on his rolls to the hoop because if he gets close to the rim the only guy who even tries to feed him is Booker, and Booker gets too fancy, going for lob dunks instead of just hitting him with momentum.

From what I can see of Ayton he is already a better rebounding and passing Amare Stoudemire, but the offense is doing a terrible job of letting him use his speed and strength.

It's great that we finally have a half court offense for the first time in 5 years, but they need to push in transition far more often than they do, especially with freak athletes like Jackson, Bridges and Ayton.

I'm not out on Koko, but he needs to make adjustments. I hope he isn't sitting back and thinking "the system works".

PS... I'm not worried in the long term. My bigger fear at the moment is Jones doing some stupid panic trade in an effort to become full time GM. Giving up a 1st round pick for a rental PG with rotting teeth. I just wish Sarver would hire a respected basketball mind and let them do their job. This season is already toast, but with Booker, Bridges, Ayton, Warren and (maybe) Jackson, our pick and a ton of space... this team would need to have grossly incompetent management to not be a beast in a year or 2.

 

[Phrazbit]

One of a number of reasons I think Kokoskov needs to be ousted ASAP, perception be damned. This franchise cannot afford under any circumstance for Ayton not to realize his potential.

No. There is no respectable person who would take this job if they fired Koko after 6 weeks.

Maybe your dream of Rick Pitino would come true, but barring prostitution being legalized and the Suns getting millions of dollars to pay players under the table, I don't think Rick would be an improvement.

 

[sunsfan88]

Well, I guess that’s on you. I thought soft. Apparently i was right.

Soft was what was on my mind as well. Can’t really call him a bust when he’s setting rookie franchise records.

 

[taz02]

I am no expert but it sure looks like we have an offense designed for wing players while our superstar center plays PG 15 feet from the basket. I cannot stand the play where he catches the ball 15 feet out and never even looks in the direction of the basket.

Maybe a PG will fix some of this but but Igors offense does not seem to fit with a dominant big man.

Ayton Needs:

1. A PG
2. A new Offense
3. Defensive PF
4. Big Man Coach
5. Time and Patience

Even though Aytons numbers are great you can see the wasted potential on offense. His interior defense is horrible and I haven't noticed any improvement. It will be interesting to see how hard he works in the offseason.

 

[Raindog]

I am no expert but it sure looks like we have an offense designed for wing players while our superstar center plays PG 15 feet from the basket. I cannot stand the play where he catches the ball 15 feet out and never even looks in the direction of the basket.

Maybe a PG will fix some of this but but Igors offense does not seem to fit with a dominant big man.

Good takes... and I agree. The biggest problem with Ayton so far seems to be Kokoskov. I am not saying that Ayton may not eventually prove - on his own - to be lacking the fire to reach his own potential. But right now, he does at least seem to be acknowledging his own need for improvement on various levels... and he is still after all, a very green 19 year old rookie, just 20 games into his first season.

Kokoskov is still just fresh as a head coach in the league, too. But he has a long history as a coach in other contexts, and one has to wonder if his approach is fully baked in at this point. If so, it's not encouraging, because he so far seems utterly clueless... and far worse than that, obstinate that the personnel have to fit his "system" rather than the other way around. That is especially egregious with a talent like Ayton, who could be tearing it up if he's used in the correct way.

As of this moment, it doesn't bode well for the future. I'm not saying the Suns should be considering firing him imminently, but if things don't change over the course of the season, I really see no good reason not to get rid of Igor at the end of it.

 

[Chaplin]

Well, I guess that’s on you. I thought soft. Apparently i was right.

Then why not say soft? Why is that a word like “Voldemort?” Bust would be far more controversial and closer to a word that someone at this point would not want to write.

 

[Western Font]

Put him on the block and see how much of a bust the other GMs think he is. I mean, if a couple years ago someone said we were going to have a rookie center with these numbers through 20 games, I don’t think many of us would immediately be like, “Look the the defensive numbers—pass. Let’s lock Len up.”

I know there’s a point where “give it time” starts to sound hollow (Bender), but Ayton is a college sophomore who just joined the worst team in the league, with no PG or PF, a new
coach (third in theee years), and which just fired the GM right before the season. None of this excuses shortcomings that should be improved, but in context I think impatience is winning out over expectations.

Not that Suns fans don’t have a right to be impatient.

 

[Chaplin]

I am no expert but it sure looks like we have an offense designed for wing players while our superstar center plays PG 15 feet from the basket. I cannot stand the play where he catches the ball 15 feet out and never even looks in the direction of the basket.

Maybe a PG will fix some of this but but Igors offense does not seem to fit with a dominant big man.

Ayton Needs:

1. A PG
2. A new Offense
3. Defensive PF
4. Big Man Coach
5. Time and Patience

Even though Aytons numbers are great you can see the wasted potential on offense. His interior defense is horrible and I haven't noticed any improvement. It will be interesting to see how hard he works in the offseason.

I think his interior one on one defense is actually not bad. It’s his help defense that is really terrible. We have so many problems with other players on defense, it makes Ayton’s responsibility to help that much more apparent and necessary. And since he’s no good at it, he fails miserably and then he’s proclaimed an overall terrible defender, which of course nullifies his offensive skill for people that expect him to be much better than where he is, which as mentioned before is in the TOP tier of rookie centers in NBA history with nowhere to go but up.

The question isn’t if he’ll ever be a good defender—it’s if his failings are teachable or not teachable. I think most of them are and he has an opportunity to be a lot better. But not expecting it right away and not expecting it ever are two completely different things.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think his interior one on one defense is actually not bad. It’s his help defense that is really terrible. We have so many problems with other players on defense, it makes Ayton’s responsibility to help that much more apparent and necessary. And since he’s no good at it, he fails miserably and then he’s proclaimed an overall terrible defender, which of course nullifies his offensive skill for people that expect him to be much better than where he is, which as mentioned before is in the TOP tier of rookie centers in NBA history with nowhere to go but up.

The question isn’t if he’ll ever be a good defender—it’s if his failings are teachable or not teachable. I think most of them are and he has an opportunity to be a lot better. But not expecting it right away and not expecting it ever are two completely different things.

First no one has called him a bust. Also no one here said his defensive failings “nullify” his offensive abilities. In fact I believe many posters have acknowledged and are happy with his offense. Most pin any offensive downfall on koko, the offense and lack of pg and not on Ayton. People are just pointing out Ayton’s shortcomings.

And this talk of being a good one-on-one defender I think is myth growing into legend. I think he’s got nice footwork when defending on the perimeter when he gets caught in a switch, but those happen with rarity. In the post against established bigs he pretty much gets owned. Look at the numbers center routinely put up against him. And read the above article (if you haven’t already). His defensive numbers are literally putrid. That’s not hyperbole. And it’s not just weak side blocks. The percentages against him suggest that all the talk of all the shots he’s altering is really just more wishful thinking than fact.

As for whether it will change, I hope so. But my hope is growing more faint. He doesn’t seem to possess the anticipation of drive or timing. I think those things are difficult to acquire. And again the article above suggests that based on historical data these types of dreadful numbers don’t undergo a significant shift over time typically.

I know he’s a big pup and potentially a piece of clay that needs molding. But man the eye test of his defense combined with the data provided by that article paint a bleak picture of aytons defensive upside (or lack thereof) for the future. I wish it was otherwise but I tend to believe what’s in front of me rather than pinning my hopes on what could be.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I did not read the article. I am guessing he is one of the worst, using whatever statistic they are looking at.

To me, he gets one for one on one defense, he gets another one for not doing stupid stuff (like Chriss and Jackson, for example), and he gets one for rebounding. You may disagree, but I consider rebounding to be a part of defense.
Bottom line is that he sucks defensively, but he could be worse (especially in one on one situations), and he could be doing stupid stuff.

I've said this many times, but some people had unrealistic expectations. People proclaimed him to be a David Robinson, and dismissed obvious issues with his drive and defense, proclaiming that he has the body of a Greek God, and he will be a good defender when he starts playing his natural position. Anyone who had one ounce of objectivity is not surprised by his lack of drive and defense. He never had any drive, aggression, or defense. Not in high school, not in college. He wasn't magically going to get aggressive, find his drive, and start playing defense the day he stepped onto an NBA court.

Rebounding is definitely a defensive skill.

 

[GatorAZ]

Put him on the block and see how much of a bust the other GMs think he is. I mean, if a couple years ago someone said we were going to have a rookie center with these numbers through 20 games, I don’t think many of us would immediately be like, “Look the the defensive numbers—pass. Let’s lock Len up.”

I know there’s a point where “give it time” starts to sound hollow (Bender), but Ayton is a college sophomore who just joined the worst team in the league, with no PG or PF, a new
coach (third in theee years), and which just fired the GM right before the season. None of this excuses shortcomings that should be improved, but in context I think impatience is winning out over expectations.

Not that Suns fans don’t have a right to be impatient.

He’s got to WANT to dominate on the block. He really does nothing to fight for position or demand the ball and rarely goes up strong to the rim. I think Igor is in over his head but a coach can’t brainwash a player into something he’s not.

 

[JCSunsfan]

If we had the miracle of 30 year old Steve Nash on this team I think Ayton would be demolishing the stats Amare put up at the same age. Ayton has even started to bail on his rolls to the hoop because if he gets close to the rim the only guy who even tries to feed him is Booker, and Booker gets too fancy, going for lob dunks instead of just hitting him with momentum.

From what I can see of Ayton he is already a better rebounding and passing Amare Stoudemire, but the offense is doing a terrible job of letting him use his speed and strength.

It's great that we finally have a half court offense for the first time in 5 years, but they need to push in transition far more often than they do, especially with freak athletes like Jackson, Bridges and Ayton.

I'm not out on Koko, but he needs to make adjustments. I hope he isn't sitting back and thinking "the system works".

PS... I'm not worried in the long term. My bigger fear at the moment is Jones doing some stupid panic trade in an effort to become full time GM. Giving up a 1st round pick for a rental PG with rotting teeth. I just wish Sarver would hire a respected basketball mind and let them do their job. This season is already toast, but with Booker, Bridges, Ayton, Warren and (maybe) Jackson, our pick and a ton of space... this team would need to have grossly incompetent management to not be a beast in a year or 2.

Igor has so many things to deal with right now. He has one of the biggest challenges I have ever seen an NBA coach take on.

He has four rookies in his ten man rotation. That does not include Josh Jackson, who is playing like a rookie. Think about that. What NBA coach can win games with that type of inexperience. On top of that, his vet players are basic no-shows except for Crawford. He is only getting consistent play from Booker, Warren, and Holmes, and even then Holmes is a second round energy guy and Booker is playing a new position.

This roster has talent, but it is just way too young to expect a coach to be winning many games at all. I believe he will end up developing players, but with this young group it is not going to happen quickly.