Ayton's Development at the Quarter Mark of 2018-2019 Season

[Covert Rain]

He probably felt a little like this playing guys at the PF position in college. He ISN'T seeing none of that junk in the NBA.

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[WildBB]

To me he hasn't earned being in the starting rotation any more then Jackson as of this point. He's pretty much been overshadowed by the overall game of Holmes in the last 10 games.
As a matter of fact, it could be that the Suns have found their center. Ayton will be a nice compliment for now.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I don't know what to tell you, Ouchie. I've only watched him a handful of times, and he didn't look any different than he looks now when it comes to effort and drive. Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder could see it. How so many people didn't see it is beyond me.

Well we have to agree to disagree. I watched almost every game. And game after game the guys calling the game pop poo’ed the notion of effort and my eyes said the same. I see something different now unfortunately.

I am also acutely aware of how many of the posters on this board just won’t see faults in our players or staff or leadership or try to come up with excuses for their faults. I think that’s what you’re doing here. In a really odd manner trying to minimize the issue by saying it’s always been there. I mean, if that’s the case (a) it should be an even GREATER concern; and (b) who cares if people thought it did or didn’t exist before . . . it does now and it’s a problem. It’s not less of a problem because it preexisted. I mean, I don’t even understand why we are arguing about this. Are you saying we shouldn’t expect our number one overall pick physically dominant center to play defense? To play with effort? To play physically with aggressiveness in the post?

 

[SactownSunsFan]

Igor should be "pulled". It is the coach's job to develop a rookie (with only one year of college ball and at a different position). And to not station him at the 3-point line on a pick & roll. And to convince the Front Office to have obtained a serviceable Point Guard to feed the Center skillfully.

It's the head coach's job to draw up a game plan, call plays and to put the best combination of players on the floor at any given time to maximize the chances of winning a game. Player development largely falls on assistant coaches, and most importantly the players themselves.

And you really think a head coach going into his first year, with zero head coaching experience prior to being hired, has that kind of clout with the FO to just tell them the PG he wants and to make it a reality? Yeah, good luck with that.

I more or less agree with the rest of your points. Regardless, none of that has anything to do with Ayton's on-court activity level. The only way Igor can hope to make Ayton learn that his effort is lackluster is to let him rot on the bench. I hope we see more of that if the effort continues to be a problem.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

He probably felt a little like this playing guys at the PF position in college. He ISN'T seeing none of that junk in the NBA.

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That’s awesome.

 

[WildBB]

It's the head coach's job to draw up a game plan, call plays and to put the best combination of players on the floor at any given time to maximize the chances of winning a game. Player development largely falls on assistant players, and most importantly the players themselves.

And you really think a head coach going into his first year, with zero head coaching experience prior to being hired, has that kind of clout with the FO to just tell them the PG he wants and to make it a reality? Yeah, good luck with that.

I more or less agree with the rest of your points. Regardless, none of that has anything to do with Ayton's on-court activity level. The only way Igor can hope to make Ayton learn that his effort is lackluster is to let him rot on the bench. I hope we see more of that if the effort continues to be a problem.

There's a spot next to Bender. They can fight it out.

 

[SirStefan32]

Well we have to agree to disagree. I watched almost every game. And game after game the guys calling the game pop poo’ed the notion of effort and my eyes said the same. I see something different now unfortunately.

I am also acutely aware of how many of the posters on this board just won’t see faults in our players or staff or leadership or try to come up with excuses for their faults. I think that’s what you’re doing here. In a really odd manner trying to minimize the issue by saying it’s always been there. I mean, if that’s the case (a) it should be an even GREATER concern; and (b) who cares if people thought it did or didn’t exist before . . . it does now and it’s a problem. It’s not less of a problem because it preexisted. I mean, I don’t even understand why we are arguing about this. Are you saying we shouldn’t expect our number one overall pick physically dominant center to play defense? To play with effort? To play physically with aggressiveness in the post?

No man, I am not trying to do or say any of that. I am saying that at a fundamental level, players are who they are. Some player are motivated and others are not. Some players are nasty, and others are not. Ayton is not a nasty guy with crazy drive. If you want that, look to Doncic- that kid is never going to stop giving it 100%, and in his mind, he will never be good enough. He will always want to be the best. Ayton just doesn't have that. He has a great body, moves very well, has incredible hands, incredibly advanced offensive game for his age, and very high basketball IQ.

I'd draft him at #1 again, knowing full well I am gambling on his offense eventually being good enough to cover for his defense, and that he will show SOME improvements with drive, heart, effort, etc as he gets a little older. Another gamble is that I'm counting on Booker to provide the nastiness Ayton lacks.

I think the disagreement is about what Ayton is. I submit that he is who he is, and not who we want him to be. Trust me, I'd be thrilled if he was Anthony Davis on defense and Shaq on offense, but that's not who he is.

 

[elindholm]

If you want that, look to Doncic- that kid is never going to stop giving it 100%, and in his mind, he will never be good enough. He will always want to be the best.

You'd think it would occur to him to hit the gym, then.

 

[SirStefan32]

You'd think it would occur to him to hit the gym, then.

He is not hitting the gym? Please enlighten all of with information from your overflowing fountain of knowledge, Professor!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

He is not hitting the gym? Please enlighten all of with information from your overflowing fountain of knowledge, Professor!

Eh I think you can look at Doncic and find E’s comment convincing.

 

[elindholm]

He is not hitting the gym? Please enlighten all of with information from your overflowing fountain of knowledge, Professor!

I'm sorry, but this is another Bender-like example of you seeing what you want to see and manufacturing evidence out of whole cloth. We heard the last two years about how Bender was obviously so smart and talented, and he turned out to be unexceptional in either of those areas. Now you're telling us that Doncic has the eye of the tiger, where once again your claim is based entirely on what you believe you see. Sure, he's more aggressive than Ayton at this point in his career, but beyond that, we have no idea.

 

[Krangodnzr]

He is not hitting the gym? Please enlighten all of with information from your overflowing fountain of knowledge, Professor!

Doncic CAN be a demon on the court, but not get after it off the court. Those ideas aren't mutually exclusive.

Doncic doesn't have the body of a LBJ, because he doesn't get after it in the weight room the way James did/does. I don't think Elindholm is wrong in this aspect. American athletes just tend to spend more time working on their bodies than non-Americans.

 

[SirStefan32]

Doncic CAN be a demon on the court, but not get after it off the court. Those ideas aren't mutually exclusive.

Doncic doesn't have the body of a LBJ, because he doesn't get after it in the weight room the way James did/does. I don't think Elindholm is wrong in this aspect. American athletes just tend to spend more time working on their bodies than non-Americans.

I understand that, but my question is how does anyone know that Doncic is NOT in the gym regularly these days? One of my coworkers is a Mavs' fan and I remember him sharing something about Luka in the gym multiple times since he was drafted. I don't remember the details, but I remember seeing a couple of different times I've seen pictures of Doncic in the gym.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I understand that, but my question is how does anyone know that Doncic is NOT in the gym regularly these days? One of my coworkers is a Mavs' fan and I remember him sharing something about Luka in the gym multiple times since he was drafted. I don't remember the details, but I remember seeing a couple of different times I've seen pictures of Doncic in the gym.

Plenty of fat people spend time in the gym. I'm not saying Doncic is fat, it's just that quality matters a lot in the gym more than quantity. Also diet matters a lot. Either way, it doesn't look like Doncic is that devoted to fitness, which will make a HUGE difference in his game.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Plenty of fat people spend time in the gym. I'm not saying Doncic is fat, it's just that quality matters a lot in the gym more than quantity. Also diet matters a lot. Either way, it doesn't look like Doncic is that devoted to fitness, which will make a HUGE difference in his game.

Yeah and without knowing much about him specifically, I'd think diet might be his biggest issue right now.

 

[Hoop Head]

Plenty of fat people spend time in the gym. I'm not saying Doncic is fat, it's just that quality matters a lot in the gym more than quantity. Also diet matters a lot. Either way, it doesn't look like Doncic is that devoted to fitness, which will make a HUGE difference in his game.

And it doesn't look like Zion hits the gym either but to some people he seems to be the answer to most of the Suns problems. So what's the issue? If a player isn't built like Lebron they can't be a winner? Look at Dirk, look at Nash, those are 2 former MVP's who no one would ever mistake for professional athletes if they weren't so tall. Neither of them looked carved out of granite like some other NBA players. Being buff doesn't equal success in the NBA.

 

[Cheesebeef]

And it doesn't look like Zion hits the gym either but to some people he seems to be the answer to most of the Suns problems. So what's the issue? If a player isn't built like Lebron they can't be a winner? Look at Dirk, look at Nash, those are 2 former MVP's who no one would ever mistake for professional athletes if they weren't so tall. Neither of them looked carved out of granite like some other NBA players. Being buff doesn't equal success in the NBA.

no one is saying it's an issue and Doncic can't be a winner because of it. it's just an observation based on Stef saying Doncic gives 100% and questioning that if he's not putting in the work on his body outside the court.

I'll never understand the people who see arguments about things that don't exist.

And Nash and Dirk were both in great shape. Didn't mean they could leap over anyone, but they didn't look doughy at all.

 

[Hoop Head]

I'll never understand the people who see arguments about things that don't exist.

And I'll never understand ********* who try to escalate discussions into arguments with snide remarks.

 

[elindholm]

And I'll never understand ********* who try to escalate discussions into arguments with snide remarks.

What the hell? Follow the discussion. The question isn't whether getting chiseled is mandatory, but whether it's realistic to say that someone will "do whatever it takes" when his body discipline is well below the league standard.

 

[95pro]

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[Hoop Head]

What the hell? Follow the discussion. The question isn't whether getting chiseled is mandatory, but whether it's realistic to say that someone will "do whatever it takes" when his body discipline is well below the league standard.

The discussion was hijacked by a snide remark about Doncic not going to the gym because why? That had what to do with him having more of a killer instinct than Ayton. Stef talked about how he's been a winner and competitor everywhere he's been and has a drive that can't be questioned. Rather than debate that you brought up how he could go to the gym, because why? Is his physique or conditioning hurting his game? No. So again, what's the issue?

Rather than address the actual issue, whether Doncic had a strong will to win and compete, you sidestepped it completely by saying people see what they want to see. So him winning MVP in Euroleague while playing on one of the best teams in that league at 18 years old isn't drive? That's just like Bender, people imagining things and seeing what they want. The kid has won a Euroleague title, MVP, and helped his country will a gold medal in Euro Tournament. Somehow that isn't tangible proof that he has a drive to win and compete though, it's like Bender because he's a 19 year old kid and a little chubby? Ok.

Now I'm the one who went off discussion by disputing the value of whether he is a gym rat or not by mentioning a player that everyone has been fawning over from Duke, Zion, and mentioned a couple other NBA players that aren't built like gym rats and don't look like they have muscles on top of muscles but have been quite successful and then I get Cheese saying no one's saying it's an issue? Sorry but that's all the discussion turned to. Then he wants to try taking a shot at me for seeing "an arguments about things that don't exist" when clearly this turned into whether Doncic hit the gym enough, because there are a half dozen posts prior to mine talking about that exact thing. So I didn't stay on discussion though and turned this into argument? Right.

 

[elindholm]

The discussion was hijacked by a snide remark about Doncic not going to the gym because why? That had what to do with him having more of a killer instinct than Ayton. Stef talked about how he's been a winner and competitor everywhere he's been and has a drive that can't be questioned. Rather than debate that you brought up how he could go to the gym, because why? Is his physique or conditioning hurting his game? No. So again, what's the issue?

I guess I wasn't clear. I'm not disputing that Doncic is more aggressive than Ayton at this point in their career. I said that explicitly, but maybe the font wasn't large enough, or maybe it wasn't early enough in the post for you to have read it.

What I objected to is the claim that Doncic's drive is so great that he'll do anything he can to be the best he can be. There's simply no evidence to support that; in fact, there is evidence to the contrary. Exaggeration and other distortions of the truth simply aren't conducive to fruitful discussion. If we could stick to the facts, we'd have a much better time communicating with one another.

 

[Mainstreet]

Doncic could well be the best player in the 2018 draft. It's so easy to forget Doncic is only 19 and has lived up to expectations in Europe and now the NBA. I could care less if he is a gym rat at this stage of his career. He has done all that has been asked of him. Too much is expected of these young players.

 

[95pro]

I guess I wasn't clear. I'm not disputing that Doncic is more aggressive than Ayton at this point in their career. I said that explicitly, but maybe the font wasn't large enough, or maybe it wasn't early enough in the post for you to have read it.

What I objected to is the claim that Doncic's drive is so great that he'll do anything he can to be the best he can be. There's simply no evidence to support that; in fact, there is evidence to the contrary. Exaggeration and other distortions of the truth simply aren't conducive to fruitful discussion. If we could stick to the facts, we'd have a much better time communicating with one another.

He's putting up points and winning. Just because he isn't ripped to shreds doesn't mean he's not working either. Easier said than done as they say.

 

[SirStefan32]

I guess I wasn't clear. I'm not disputing that Doncic is more aggressive than Ayton at this point in their career. I said that explicitly, but maybe the font wasn't large enough, or maybe it wasn't early enough in the post for you to have read it.

What I objected to is the claim that Doncic's drive is so great that he'll do anything he can to be the best he can be. There's simply no evidence to support that; in fact, there is evidence to the contrary. Exaggeration and other distortions of the truth simply aren't conducive to fruitful discussion. If we could stick to the facts, we'd have a much better time communicating with one another.

Actually, there are years and years of evidence to support that. You choose to ignore it because he is a white European and it doesn't fit your narrative.