Barbosa Blames "Flop Artist" Ginobli

[elindholm]

Generally speaking, it's too bad that penalties for flopping weren't included in the latest CBA. It would be very easy to place it in the category of unsportsmanlike conduct, which is also a judgment call but which when discouraged by penalties makes the game better for everyone. Severe cases could be punished by technical fouls, the way that taunting and other unsportsmanlike plays are.

 

[Drop D]

This is a "classic" caption by mysanantonio.com under a photo of Barbosa being helped off the floor in SA:

"[font=arial,helvetica]The Suns' Leandro Barbosa is helped off the court at the end of the first half after colliding with Manu Ginobili in the Spurs' victory over the Suns on Saturday at the SBC Center."


[/font]

 

[devilfan02]

This is a "classic" caption by mysanantonio.com under a photo of Barbosa being helped off the floor in SA:

"[font=arial,helvetica]The Suns' Leandro Barbosa is helped off the court at the end of the first half after colliding with Manu Ginobili in the Spurs' victory over the Suns on Saturday at the SBC Center."


[/font]

As I said in a past post, to say Manu isn't the ultimate flop artist means you either never watch the NBA or are blind to the fact because your a Spurs fan.

 

[Errntknght]

Statistics says it was an probably an intentional hit on Barbosa - on someone wearing an opponents jersey, that is.

First of all if his flops put his own teammates equally at risk they would kick his a$$ until he stopped it. Or they are incredibly stupid. They have to play on the same floor with him every game so they would be at much more risk over the course of a season. Between 20 and 40 times as much risk as other players in the league. Obviously, they haven't done it so that means he makes sure he avoids hitting them.

Secondly, Popovich would stop Manure from doing if he was putting his teammates at risk. It's almost inconceiveable that Popovich hasn't talked to him about and been assured by Flopobili himself that he can easily avoid hitting his teammates.

Thirdly, no Spur has been injured by his flopping but at least two other players have, if carrrnutt is reporting accurately. Very likely if the other teams were researched there would be additional injuries discovered that resulted from his flopping.

The league should forthwith poll other teams to find out cases of injury they attribute to Manu's flops, examine tapes of those incidents and see how many hold up. If it's just the two cases then there is something like a 35 percent chance it's a random occurence so a warning to cease and desist would be appropriate. If there's a half dozen cases then it's well under a 10% chance of it being sheer good luck on the part of his teammates, then a few game suspension should be handed out to make sure he knows it's a serious matter. Twelve cases and it's under a 1% chance of it being luck, so a years suspension would be light punishment.

Popovich should be suspended if another Spur flops... he is too of a coach to have a player of his doing it without him knowing and condoning it.

Basically, I'll believe it is accidental when he takes out a teammate with a significant injury. Until then I'll go with the odds which say it's intentional.

The good thing that could come of it is that the league could deem flopping to be unsportsmanlike conduct as Elindholm suggests - and I have been saying for many years. It would be a tremendous boost to the game for everyone. I've been watching the NBA since 1954 and for the first twenty of those years players simply did not flop or otherwise exaggerate the effect of contact. Frankly, I've always been amazed that the refs didn't take care of it themselves by simply not giving a guy any call when he flopped - on the theory that if there was a foul he wouldn't need to call attention to himself and thus doing so indicates there was no foul. After all, it is an insult to refs to show that you think they can't see fouls without your assistance.


carrrnut >>Also, Shawty I'm sure is choosing not to remember the 2003 Western Conference Finals, where the man I would like to refer to as "Floppo the Clown", did a very similar thing to none other than Dirk Nowitzki.<<

 

[AZ Shocker]

LOL. Spurs are a dirty team? How long have you watched this game? Do you remember the Pistons of the 80s? Did you watch any of the Lakers/Celtics rivalry games? Ever heard of Thump N Bump? How about Maurice Lucas? You don't know the meanin' of dirty.

Or what about Fletch. C'mon...he used to bite people.

You must be registered for see images

 

[Shawty]

Hey Shawty, look what I found on NBA.com

Player Profile
Manu Ginobili | 20
Position: G
Born: Jul 28, 1977
Height: 6-6 / 1,98
Weight: 205 lbs. / 93,0 kg.
From : Argentina


By the way, he flops like every argentinean soccer player, that's the lamest thing in the world to see and that's basically cheating.

But there's one thing Manu doesn't seem to understand : when you play soccer, and you dive, you're a lame cheater landing untouched on the grass like this :

You must be registered for see images

On the other side, when you drive in the paint and flop, you have a big chance to land on someone else and hurting him, because there's always at least 3 guys around you.

The day Flipobili lands on Duncan and ends his season and your title chances, we'll see if you're still so prompt to defend him.

I suppose you believe that Iverson is 6 feet also. You know half of the league are listed taller than they actually are. Charles Barkley's height was fluffed his whole career.

And you are correct about the soccer background. Many foreign players overexaggerate contact due to the "soccer" background in their country.

I don't know if you remember when your Suns put my Spurs out of postseason contention in 2000. If you do, you'll remember that Elie slid into Malik Rose's knee resulting in ligament tears. It happens even with teammates. I'm surprised it's such a big thing here that a player does that. If yall are not aware, Ginobili is not the only player who does this.

 

[elindholm]

I don't know if you remember when your Suns put my Spurs out of postseason contention in 2000.

"Your" Spurs? Didn't you just belittle me for assuming you were a Spurs fan?

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Manu would fit right in on Denver's offensive line. He's chop blocking in the NBA now!

 

[Shawty]

I'm sorry, but this makes no sense. You are a Spurs fan who came to a Suns board, and the only posts you have made are in this thread defending Manu Ginobili. Unless our definitions are different, that's an apologist.

If you check the Spurs board, I defend other players who ARE NOT Spurs. I've had defend Nash over Parker many times on a Spur board. NO, I'm not a SPur apologist. That is my squad though since I've been watchin' them as long as I can remember. Iceman used to be my fav player. Any other accusations?

My problem with Ginobili is that he had to exaggerate Bell's contact by falling onto Barbosa's knee. Yeah, it's a freak thing and Ginobili surely didn't expect to mess up Barbosa's knee, but the whole point is that as a basketball player you should be aware of your body and what's around you. There is no way you can blame Barbosa for being pissed at Ginobili for the fact that Ginobili didn't need to fall onto Barbosa's knee.

There are many times that players DON'T know who's around them. Have you ever played the game? It's one of the fastest movin' games in the world and things come at you quickly. Many players hurt anutha' without realizin'. Not once did you hear me say that Barbosa has NO RIGHT to be angry but he should know that things like that will happen on a basketball court. It's not like Manu took a bat to his dome.

And that's the crux of the argument. Everybody except Spurs fans will say that Ginobili could have prevented himself from falling onto Barbosa's knee. But, since he exaggerates contact so much (or flops, whichever term you prefer), Ginobili ended up crashing into Barbosa.

If you check my post I said it was ill-advised. What more do you want? Overexaggeratin' works and it's not like Manu invented this style of drawin' fouls. He's simply capitalizin' on an art that's been in the league for years. Those who have been watchin' b-ball for a while know that it's true.

Here's another scenario. What happens if instead of falling onto someone's knee, Ginobili someday falls in traffic, near someone's foot, on a fast break, and his wrist/leg/head gets trampled on or kicked? That's the situation I'm talking about. It's stupid and reckless to overexaggerate contact in certain situations, and it's just crappy luck for the Suns that Ginobili ended up hurting the opponent instead of himself.

I think Manu knows the risks of the game. When he flies in there and bodies up with the big men of the league, he knows they can pop him. He doesn't care. He's been trampled on, kicked in the face, slammed on the court, punched in the head, etc. and keep comin'. If he was on your team, you'd luv him. Trust me. Hate him, he's not.

 

[Shawty]

I don't know if you remember when your Suns put my Spurs out of postseason contention in 2000.

"Your" Spurs? Didn't you just belittle me for assuming you were a Spurs fan?

I'm not a Spurs apologist. You read right.

 

[Shawty]

Statistics says it was an probably an intentional hit on Barbosa - on someone wearing an opponents jersey, that is.

First of all if his flops put his own teammates equally at risk they would kick his a$$ until he stopped it. Or they are incredibly stupid. They have to play on the same floor with him every game so they would be at much more risk over the course of a season. Between 20 and 40 times as much risk as other players in the league. Obviously, they haven't done it so that means he makes sure he avoids hitting them.

Secondly, Popovich would stop Manure from doing if he was putting his teammates at risk. It's almost inconceiveable that Popovich hasn't talked to him about and been assured by Flopobili himself that he can easily avoid hitting his teammates.

Thirdly, no Spur has been injured by his flopping but at least two other players have, if carrrnutt is reporting accurately. Very likely if the other teams were researched there would be additional injuries discovered that resulted from his flopping.

The league should forthwith poll other teams to find out cases of injury they attribute to Manu's flops, examine tapes of those incidents and see how many hold up. If it's just the two cases then there is something like a 35 percent chance it's a random occurence so a warning to cease and desist would be appropriate. If there's a half dozen cases then it's well under a 10% chance of it being sheer good luck on the part of his teammates, then a few game suspension should be handed out to make sure he knows it's a serious matter. Twelve cases and it's under a 1% chance of it being luck, so a years suspension would be light punishment.

Popovich should be suspended if another Spur flops... he is too of a coach to have a player of his doing it without him knowing and condoning it.

Basically, I'll believe it is accidental when he takes out a teammate with a significant injury. Until then I'll go with the odds which say it's intentional.

The good thing that could come of it is that the league could deem flopping to be unsportsmanlike conduct as Elindholm suggests - and I have been saying for many years. It would be a tremendous boost to the game for everyone. I've been watching the NBA since 1954 and for the first twenty of those years players simply did not flop or otherwise exaggerate the effect of contact. Frankly, I've always been amazed that the refs didn't take care of it themselves by simply not giving a guy any call when he flopped - on the theory that if there was a foul he wouldn't need to call attention to himself and thus doing so indicates there was no foul. After all, it is an insult to refs to show that you think they can't see fouls without your assistance.


carrrnut >>Also, Shawty I'm sure is choosing not to remember the 2003 Western Conference Finals, where the man I would like to refer to as "Floppo the Clown", did a very similar thing to none other than Dirk Nowitzki.<<

That's just flat-out ridiculous. Everyone else posts serious type stuff and you come with trash. Pop is NOT Buddy Ryan. He's never made a "hit" on someone. Get real! That's just stupid. And why don't you look at the tape from the 2003 WCF. I have it on tape. THAT WAS CLEARLY INCIDENTAL CONTACT. Next...

 

[Shawty]

but for anyone to say he doesn't ACT to the excess has either never watched him play or are blinded by the truth because their a Spurs fan

Who said he doesn't act? Now you're just grabbin' for anything.

 

[elindholm]

It's one of the fastest movin' games in the world and things come at you quickly. Many players hurt anutha' without realizin'.

Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound?

 

[Shawty]

Below is a response I gave to a Spurs fan, on a general NBA board, after I posted a link to the article that started this thread here. The Spurs fan said:



My response was:



Also, Shawty I'm sure is choosing not to remember the 2003 Western Conference Finals, where the man I would like to refer to as "Floppo the Clown", did a very similar thing to none other than Dirk Nowitzki.

Where in those pics do you see a man outta' control? This is basketball not chess. It's a physical game. If you can't stand it, why play it? This is a league that showcased Piston goons, Karl Malone's elbows and knees, Utah's forearm picks, Rodman's headbutts, and the Celtics flyin' tackles and everyone here is worried about a guy who hits the floor when a bigger body makes contact with him. The Suns are not that soft of a team. They are much more rugged than this. It's almost like I'm talkin' to Mav fans here.

 

[Shawty]

It's one of the fastest movin' games in the world and things come at you quickly. Many players hurt anutha' without realizin'.

Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound?

What part sounds ridiculous? "It's" or "Many".

 

[dreamcastrocks]

What part sounds ridiculous? "It's" or "Many".

I would say this part

It's one of the fastest movin' games in the world and things come at you quickly

 

[Shawty]

I would say this part

I assume you've played. Have you ever drew a foul expectin' to hurt someone? Of course not. That would make you a dirty player. Have you unintentionally hurt someone due to the fact that you were stronger than you opponent, or runnin' too fast? Do you have a habit of pokin' at the ball and accidentally poked someone in the eye, seriously injurin' it? Should your opponent expect you to stop pokin' at the ball simply because you've injured someone's eye before while doin' the same maneuver? Any competitor know these are the risks of the game. Comes with the territory. Now one guy who's game I disagreed with was Karl MAlone but he was a totally different subject.

 

[elindholm]

What part sounds ridiculous? "It's" or "Many".

No, it's the weak attempt at street dialect. There are few things more pathetic than someone trying to pass as "cool" by lamely copying things that they see cool people do. And then to do that over the internet on a message board, well, that takes it to a whole new level.

 

[The Commish]

Alright Shawty, just hear me out for a minute.

None of us are denying the talent and passion to win that Manu posesses. His performance on the floor has definately helped you win championships. We know that Manu also did not "intentionally" injure Barbosa. Some could legitimately argue that he wasn't even flopping.

However, this debate is a culmination of the past 3 years of playing against him, and his constant exageration of contact. When he drives to the lane, he has the mindset of getting to the foul line at whatever cost. Sometimes he is legitimately fouled, and sometimes he isn't.

The point is that every time someone comes near him, contact or not, many falls to the floor. I understand why he does this, and his roots. Many foreign born players grew up playing and watching soccer. We all know soccer players are the worst when it comes to faking injury to get a call. They will lie on the ground in agony for 2 mins, then immediately get back up to finish the match. You see it every game. Dirk is not exempt from this either. He is almost as bad as Manu.

My argument for Manu is that he doesn't need to flop because good players will get calls in this league. Manu has the talent and could have the respect to get the calls without the flopping every time.

If you deny that he doesn't flop, then so be it. But go across every board and fans will tell you that he is the most annoying competitor because of it. He is on your favorite team so I understand your defense of him. But when everyone including the commentators know and talk about it regularly, it becomes hard to deny.

I have respect for Manu as a basketball player and as a person. But this has got to stop. His recklessness is starting to injure other players, and if he isn't more careful then he will not be treated so well by other players.

I appreciate you coming on to our board and discussing this, but please understand that Manu is a great player and great flopper. For any of us to deny this is simply ignorant.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I assume you've played. Have you ever drew a foul expectin' to hurt someone? Of course not. That would make you a dirty player. Have you unintentionally hurt someone due to the fact that you were stronger than you opponent, or runnin' too fast? Do you have a habit of pokin' at the ball and accidentally poked someone in the eye, seriously injurin' it? Should your opponent expect you to stop pokin' at the ball simply because you've injured someone's eye before while doin' the same maneuver? Any competitor know these are the risks of the game. Comes with the territory. Now one guy who's game I disagreed with was Karl MAlone but he was a totally different subject.

Many or might I even say most of us have played. I actually just played last night. The point that I am trying to make is that everyone knows that this is a fast paced game, and to say it as if we don't even know this sounds ridiculous.

Have you ever drew a foul expectin' to hurt someone? Of course not. That would make you a dirty player. No
Have you unintentionally hurt someone due to the fact that you were stronger than you opponent, or runnin' too fast? Yes
Do you have a habit of pokin' at the ball Yes
and accidentally poked someone in the eye, seriously injurin' it? No
Should your opponent expect you to stop pokin' at the ball simply because you've injured someone's eye before while doin' the same maneuver? N/A

Any competitor know these are the risks of the game. Comes with the territory. Now one guy who's game I disagreed with was Karl MAlone but he was a totally different subject.[/QUOTE]


I am answering these questions to be facetious. Most of the people here believe that the injury was an accident. If you were a kid, playing with your dad's gun, and it accidently hurts someone, it is still an accident. However, you were doing something dangerous (intentionally flopping) to cause the accident. Manu's flopping before may have been annoying, now it has become dangerous to the players around him.

 

[Shawty]

What part sounds ridiculous? "It's" or "Many".

No, it's the weak attempt at street dialect. There are few things more pathetic than someone trying to pass as "cool" by lamely copying things that they see cool people do. And then to do that over the internet on a message board, well, that takes it to a whole new level.

I'm hurt. Devastated.

Look. Can we get back to the discussion or can I ignore you now? If you don't like my style of post, my apologies. I've done it for years. I appreciate your "weak attempt" at an insult. Thanx for playin' though.

 

[Shawty]

Many or might I even say most of us have played. I actually just played last night. The point that I am trying to make is that everyone knows that this is a fast paced game, and to say it as if we don't even know this sounds ridiculous.

Have you ever drew a foul expectin' to hurt someone? Of course not. That would make you a dirty player. No
Have you unintentionally hurt someone due to the fact that you were stronger than you opponent, or runnin' too fast? Yes
Do you have a habit of pokin' at the ball Yes
and accidentally poked someone in the eye, seriously injurin' it? No
Should your opponent expect you to stop pokin' at the ball simply because you've injured someone's eye before while doin' the same maneuver? N/A

Any competitor know these are the risks of the game. Comes with the territory. Now one guy who's game I disagreed with was Karl MAlone but he was a totally different subject.

I am answering these questions to be facetious. Most of the people here believe that the injury was an accident. If you were a kid, playing with your dad's gun, and it accidently hurts someone, it is still an accident. However, you were doing something dangerous (intentionally flopping) to cause the accident. Manu's flopping before may have been annoying, now it has become dangerous to the players around him.[/QUOTE]

I respectfully disagree. But it's a reasonable argument to some extent.

 

[elindholm]

Can we get back to the discussion or can I ignore you now?

Both, for all I care. You aren't understanding what anyone else is writing anyway.

If you don't like my style of post, my apologies. I've done it for years.

My brother dipped chewing tobacco for years because he thought it was cool. Now he has gotten smart, outgrown it, and is embarrassed by it.

Until you experience a similar epiphany, carry on. I won't comment any further.

Ginobili can flop all he wants. Until the league starts punishing it, players can use anything they can to try to get an advantage. But by putting everyone else on the floor at an elevated risk -- beyond what they'd experience against normal NBA opponents -- he is going to make a lot of enemies.

 

[Shawty]

Alright Shawty, just hear me out for a minute.

None of us are denying the talent and passion to win that Manu posesses. His performance on the floor has definately helped you win championships. We know that Manu also did not "intentionally" injure Barbosa. Some could legitimately argue that he wasn't even flopping.

However, this debate is a culmination of the past 3 years of playing against him, and his constant exageration of contact. When he drives to the lane, he has the mindset of getting to the foul line at whatever cost. Sometimes he is legitimately fouled, and sometimes he isn't.

The point is that every time someone comes near him, contact or not, many falls to the floor. I understand why he does this, and his roots. Many foreign born players grew up playing and watching soccer. We all know soccer players are the worst when it comes to faking injury to get a call. They will lie on the ground in agony for 2 mins, then immediately get back up to finish the match. You see it every game. Dirk is not exempt from this either. He is almost as bad as Manu.

My argument for Manu is that he doesn't need to flop because good players will get calls in this league. Manu has the talent and could have the respect to get the calls without the flopping every time.

If you deny that he doesn't flop, then so be it. But go across every board and fans will tell you that he is the most annoying competitor because of it. He is on your favorite team so I understand your defense of him. But when everyone including the commentators know and talk about it regularly, it becomes hard to deny.

I have respect for Manu as a basketball player and as a person. But this has got to stop. His recklessness is starting to injure other players, and if he isn't more careful then he will not be treated so well by other players.

I appreciate you coming on to our board and discussing this, but please understand that Manu is a great player and great flopper. For any of us to deny this is simply ignorant.

I like this post. What many have failed to realize is that I agree with half the opinion. It's the part I don't agree with which bring enemies. Parker's on my fav team and draws my ire quite frequently. As does Rasho. I've liked Manu's game even before he put on the jersey. He's reckless, yes. But his recklessness has only injured one player due to "recklessness" (accordin' to your definition)- Barbosa. He has drawn beaucoup fouls before and has hurt no one. He's been hurt more than he's dished out. That's why he scares his coach and teammates. If Barbosa had not been hurt, this wouldn't be a hot topic.

 

[Chaz]

If Barbosa had not been hurt, this wouldn't be a hot topic.

Manu hurting Barbosa with his antics IS the topic.