Barbosa Blames "Flop Artist" Ginobli
- Thread starter devilfan02
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jbeecham said:
I think the overall success of both franchises will fall on the shoulders of the younger stars. That's where Marion/Amare' and TP/Manu must shine even further. Both Duncan and Nash can be successful on their knowledge of the game alone. The one I worry about most of all on the Spur side is Tony. Manu will have a short career anyway because his body is gonna give out soon. His runnin' into Mack trucks in the lane is gonna take a toll. He and Iverson are gonna retire with bone fragments floatin' everywhere.
jibikao
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Shawty said:
I tend to agree with you.
Robert Horry is on his way to become a HOF. He can be sooooooooooooooo sick in playoffs. In last year's WCF, we did WELL but Horry just kept hitting 3pt in cruch time. And didn't he make a huge one against Pistons as well?
We don't have people like that. How many 3pt did Q miss in WCF? Could he even make foul shots consistently?
Role players are very important. I think we have better role players this year.
Manu's flopping is irritating, but I don't want to be hypocritical about this. Throughout their history, some of the Suns' most popular players were classic floppers.
- Horny perfected this technique and became a master defending the 2-on-1 break.
- Who could forget Ron Lee, king of all floppers (and only a king would wear 40 lbs. of gold around his neck during a game).
- Barkley was a half-flopper. When he wasn't interested in playing defense but didn't want a coach in his ear, he would goad post-players into thinking they had to bang him back as he put about 18 inches of space between them. Sometimes they'd travel, sometimes they'd turn around and dunk on him. Sometimes Barkley would just flop. Sadly, Barkley could've averaged 2.5 blocks per game, because nobody was a more explosive jumper.
- Chambers was legitimately pushed around by bigger power forwards, but this only hurt his constant flopping. When he wasn't getting scored on during a non-call, he was getting fouls. All the more encouragement for Chambers to run back down to the other end of the floor to cherry pick.
What makes Manu so effective is he doesn't just flop, he leaps backwards. In the nanosecond of NBA contact, it really looks like a charge.
- Horny perfected this technique and became a master defending the 2-on-1 break.
- Who could forget Ron Lee, king of all floppers (and only a king would wear 40 lbs. of gold around his neck during a game).
- Barkley was a half-flopper. When he wasn't interested in playing defense but didn't want a coach in his ear, he would goad post-players into thinking they had to bang him back as he put about 18 inches of space between them. Sometimes they'd travel, sometimes they'd turn around and dunk on him. Sometimes Barkley would just flop. Sadly, Barkley could've averaged 2.5 blocks per game, because nobody was a more explosive jumper.
- Chambers was legitimately pushed around by bigger power forwards, but this only hurt his constant flopping. When he wasn't getting scored on during a non-call, he was getting fouls. All the more encouragement for Chambers to run back down to the other end of the floor to cherry pick.
What makes Manu so effective is he doesn't just flop, he leaps backwards. In the nanosecond of NBA contact, it really looks like a charge.
Gaddabout said:
I see you've done your homework. I like your list. I HATED Hornacek. Mostly because he was irritatin' a la Manu. Yet, Hornacek had one of the purest jumpers. He was great comin' off the curl. I hated him 1,000 times more when he teamed with Karl Malone and Stockton.
Barkley is ONE OF MY ALL-TIME FAVS believe it or not. He defied the "height requirements" of the game. I'll get blazed for this in many corners but I think he was a lot closer to Karl Malone than he's given credit for. He was also old-school. He didn't "flop" to the level of Hornacek.
I actually don't remember Ron Lee. And Tom Chambers. Yet, another I hated since he used to slay my Spurs on occasion.
nowagimp
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When we talk about floppers we have to distinguish between those that have position and fall down and those that run in front of the player and take a dive. In the low post, it is a guessing game of physical power, players time the bumping to try to limit the offensive players ability to back down and take position, or you can just let him run you over by not bumping back. With 270-280 pound bruisers i the low post, you cant bump every time, it will wear you out! The penaly of not getting the offensive foul called is a dunk or layup. Floppers like Manu, stockton, Honracek, run out in front of the guy and dive and act it out. Manu even tosses his long locks. I think that to the trained eye it is very difficult to time the "shock effect". I cant understand why the refs cant tell when Manu is flopping, he flops too fast after(before) the hit. He falls too fast after the "hit". A fast reponse to hitting requires a nearly elastic collision. Human body collisions tend to be delayed after the hit as energy is absorbed. The penalty of not getting the call for a "manu" flopper is a blocking foul, usually not a score.
I do have one explanation for Manu's flopping success, there is so much going on(grabbing, holding, shoving) that must be evaluated by the refs to a threshold of acceptability, and it happens so fast that the refs arent watching everything, they see the hair fly they interpret energy(threshold) but not timing, and then bleep, its a whistle.
I do have one explanation for Manu's flopping success, there is so much going on(grabbing, holding, shoving) that must be evaluated by the refs to a threshold of acceptability, and it happens so fast that the refs arent watching everything, they see the hair fly they interpret energy(threshold) but not timing, and then bleep, its a whistle.
Actually, Pop and his system stresses defensive positionin'. It has been taught to Manu to beat people to their SPOT before they can get there. If you run out in front of people you will be called for a blockin' foul almost everytime. He's not simply divin' out in front. He's stayin' in front of his man and very frequently beats them to their spot. He's deceptive and has a knack for anticipation. That's why he very frequently ranks in the top level of the league in steals. He beats his man to the spot and allows them to knock him over. If you have a chance, watch him play the screen. Before the slasher, makes his move to either side of the screen, Manu will many times play OVER THE TOP of the screen and beat the offensive player to his only route to the basket. Sometimes this actually results in Manu gettin' lost in the screen since a great ballhandler can counter that by crossin' over, spinnin' back around the set pick, or reversin'. Anticipation can sometimes work against you. Many other times he simply blankets the defender with paesky, aggressive defense and waits for contact. When the player, tries to return the favor, he knows how to make it obvious. At the very least, if there's no whistle, it makes the player more tenative and takes his aggressive edge off. On offense, he initiates the least bit of contact and overexaggerates the impact. It's irritatin' for the defender and his fans but it works.nowagimp said:
nowagimp
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Shawty said:
I'm not going to get in an argument about your man Manu, I respect your right to support him. I have watched him alot, and also many others this year. The refs appear to be having a great deal of trouble calling the new rules for offensive fouls. Theyre incredibly inconsistent, and I dont buy tha crap of being consistent within the game, thats just an excuse for refs to call their own game, or play to the crowds. Maybe its because I reject the reformulation of the rules. It used to be that the player on 'O' had a right to one step, and that the defenders feet cannot be moving during this time. This is clearly not the case anymore, as the feet are moving almost all the time during the last step before collision. As the offensive player veers away from the defender, the defender slides towards him, just like all the moving picks that are used in todays game. It also used to be that the defender had to be squared up, not running sideways, again, not the case, apparently. Thirdly, it used to be that arm and leg contact(by the defender) did not constitute offensive fouls, not anymore knees get plenty of fouls. As far as pop teaching this Manuflopping, I havent noticed Parker, Horry, Bowen, or Duncan diving or "running sideways" in front of oncoming players, only Manu. Where the collision is concerned, I've seen many wideouts get hit in the NFL with less response than Manu. Personally, I think that blocking should be CALLED when a defender arrives late, though many times its a "no call". Wouldn't want to "slow down the games" or foul anyone out. Thats bullcrap, you take the risk, you get the foul. You foul out, tough, you'll foul less next game. The failure to call fouls in the NBA is adding up to ALOT of injuries with the most exciting players most at risk.
Gorilla
Booooya!!!
The funny thing is, that by the time this discussion ends, Barbosa could be in the court playing and Manu in the bench watching.
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