Beware the 4th Win

[dreamcastrocks]

To end up as one of THE WORST TEAMS IN THE LEAGUE? No.

But tell me… what were these circumstances completely out of control that no other team in the league faced en route to being tied for the 2nd worst team in football?

The have arguably the worst roster in the league, and one free agency period/draft would change that. I know you know that.
Take the starting QB out half of the year on most NFL rosters, and they are going to be pretty darn bad. You can look at wins above replacement stats to see that.

 

[BirdGangThing]

You could argue that, but it would be near impossible to prove...

If anybody could prove it we'd probably lose a couple few draft picks

 

[dreamcastrocks]

The true madness is expecting a team to compete when they have had 2 massive collapses the previous 2 seasons, your franchise QB is hurt, and you don't even know if he is your long term solution. Put any team, ANY in that position and they would have a very hard time competing.

 

[oaken1]

I have no problem with people saying that winning wasn't his first priority this offseason. I have listed above what I believe were his top priorities and stated that I believe changing the culture was his top priority this season.

What I do have a problem with is saying "Monti's primary goal this season was not to win games". IMO that means a totally different thing.

Language issues my man...

Montis main goal this year was not to win games... thats truth...

Montis main goal this year was to not win games... thats not true

the first clearly represents winning as a secondary goal while the second indicates winning is to be avoided at all costs.

 

[kerouac9]

The true madness is expecting a team to compete when they have had 2 massive collapses the previous 2 seasons, your franchise QB is hurt, and you don't even know if he is your long term solution. Put any team, ANY in that position and they would have a very hard time competing.

What does "compete" have to do with being ever-so-slightly better enough to start 3-0, which by your own contention we were oh-so-close to doing?

You don't think D-Hop, Zach Allen, and full-camp Joshua Dobbs would have made a difference in those games? You don't think drafting players in the second and third rounds who could play in training camp and the preseason would have contributed positively to the outcome? You don't think spending slightly more for a quality left guard would have made a difference?

We were in this position because we did not prioritize winning in the offseason. If we're 5-8 right now instead of 3-10 we're a game out of the playoffs.

 

[MadCardDisease]

But tell me… what were these circumstances completely out of control that no other team in the league faced en route to being tied for the 2nd worst team in football?

The ghost of Steve Keim and players who he drafted, signed or Traded for like this:

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[Cheesebeef]

The have arguably the worst roster in the league, and one free agency period/draft would change that. I know you know that.

People said the Colts, Texans, Denver all had awful rosters. Each of those teams had records either as bad as ours or 1 game difference last year. In ONE off-season, ALL of them are fighting to get into the playoffs.

did those teams, amongst the worst in the league last year have magic fairy dust that made them taking quantum leaps this year? Or did their GM have great off seasons and instantly turn them around? And no one’s even asking Monty to have done that. But if he was trying to win, he could have moved the needle more than… still being the second worst team in the league. Again.

Take the starting QB out half of the year on most NFL rosters, and they are going to be pretty darn bad. You can look at wins above replacement stats to see that.

LOL… and whose fault was it that this team decided not to have any kind of legit or even stop gap QB for half a season? Who decided for 9 months that Corpse McCoy was going to be our starter for half the year? Oh wait… THAT WAS MONTY. You can’t use lack of QB as reason for why we were so bad in the first half of the year when the team CHOOSE not to have a QB the first half of the year.

As for your second point… tell me how awful the Colts have been without their starting QB? Oh… wait… they’re challenging for a playoff spot DESPITE no QB AND BEING AWFUL LAST YEAR? Or how about Cleveland that lost their starting pro bowl RB and 250 million dollar QB? Surely they’re just as bad as us. Wait… THEYRE ALSO CHALLENGING FOR THE PLAYOFFS?!? How about the Vikings? They lost their starting QB months ago. Surely they’re one of the worst teams in the league like us, right? Oh wait… THEYRE ALSO CHALLENGING FOR THE PLAYOFFS?!

Oh wait… The Bengals lost Joe Burrow three weeks ago. They must have completely fallen apart and gone 0-3. Oh wait… they’re 2-1 and still right in the playoff mix?!

The Giants have gotten better after Danny Dimes went down.

And again, none of that is even really that important because the team went through the ENTIRE OFFSEASON CHOOSING TO HAVE NO QB for the first half of the season because McCoy was atrocious last year, physically cooked and has NEVER been even a legit stop gap starting QB in the league, much less an opening day starter. At least not on any team that valued winning in any way shape or form.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

What does "compete" have to do with being ever-so-slightly better enough to start 3-0, which by your own contention we were oh-so-close to doing?

You don't think D-Hop, Zach Allen, and full-camp Joshua Dobbs would have made a difference in those games? You don't think drafting players in the second and third rounds who could play in training camp and the preseason would have contributed positively to the outcome? You don't think spending slightly more for a quality left guard would have made a difference?

We were in this position because we did not prioritize winning in the offseason. If we're 5-8 right now instead of 3-10 we're a game out of the playoffs.

You can't do one without the other. That should be more than obvious.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I'm trying to say that they tried, but were never in a serious position to really compete this year. No matter if they didn't cut D-Hop, or signed another couple free agents.

Did you take a gander at the NFC this year? A 6-7 team is the 4 seed! This is not a surprise! Everyone knew that the NFC would be bad, and the QB's would be shambolic. You didn't need to be an NFL expert to knows this!

On one hand you say we should have be 3-0 to start the season with the dreck we have, yet some good FA additions and retaining our good players wouldn't have been enough for us to compete in the NFC, this year?

Not buying it. It's making excuses for an organization that hasn't had any credibility to start.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Did you take a gander at the NFC this year? A 6-7 team is the 4 seed! This is not a surprise! Everyone knew that the NFC would be bad, and the QB's would be shambolic. You didn't need to be an NFL expert to knows this!

On one hand you say we should have be 3-0 to start the season with the dreck we have, yet some good FA additions and retaining our good players wouldn't have been enough for us to compete in the NFC, this year?

Not buying it. It's making excuses for an organization that hasn't had any credibility to start.

On one hand you are saying this organization doesn't have any credibility, and on the other expecting it to compete...

 

[MadCardDisease]

What does "compete" have to do with being ever-so-slightly better enough to start 3-0, which by your own contention we were oh-so-close to doing?

You don't think D-Hop, Zach Allen, and full-camp Joshua Dobbs would have made a difference in those games? You don't think drafting players in the second and third rounds who could play in training camp and the preseason would have contributed positively to the outcome? You don't think spending slightly more for a quality left guard would have made a difference?

We were in this position because we did not prioritize winning in the offseason. If we're 5-8 right now instead of 3-10 we're a game out of the playoffs.

Monti couldn't keep D-Hop if he wanted to change the culture. No way Monti pays Zach Allen what he got.

Dobbs seems to get worse the longer he is in a system.

Monti's biggest failure was not bringing back Byron Murphy at CB. I think Murphy would have made a difference and he signed for a very reasonable price.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

On one hand you are saying this organization doesn't have any credibility, and on the other expecting it to compete...

Lol. You act as these things are in concert with one another. Teams without credibility stumble into success as well! This team very easily could have competed for a playoff spot in the NFC if the goal was to win.

No honest person who knows anything about football can say the Cards made a serious effort to compete this year - THE ROSTER WASN'T BUILT TO WIN. I don't know how this is so hard to get. When you have average to below average talent nearly across the board, you aren't seriously tying to compete.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Lol. You act as these things are in concert with one another. Teams without credibility stumble into success as well! This team very easily could have competed for a playoff spot in the NFC if the goal was to win.

No honest person who knows anything about football can say the Cards made a serious effort to compete this year - THE ROSTER WASN'T BUILT TO WIN. I don't know how this is so hard to get. When you have average to below average talent nearly across the board, you aren't seriously tying to compete.

But they're changing the culture, LOL. You know what changes culture faster than anything? WINNING!!!

 

[dreamcastrocks]

People said the Colts, Texans, Denver all had awful rosters. Each of those teams had records either as bad as ours or 1 game difference last year. In ONE off-season, ALL of them are fighting to get into the playoffs.

Remind me again which of those teams lost their starting QB for half of the year?

 

[MadCardDisease]

But they're changing the culture, LOL. You know what changes culture faster than anything? WINNING!!!

I've heard some pretty shocking stories about the toxic environment over on Hardy Dr last season. Trust me, a change was needed and winning wasn't going to cure it.

 

[slanidrac16]

How about this? MO is in the process of restructuring the organization which will limit the ability to win games but not intentionally lose.
Silly argument.

 

[Cheesebeef]

[Q

Remind me again which of those teams lost their starting QB for half of the year?

Again? The Colts lost their starting QB after Game 4. Pretty sure by week 14, that’s over half the year, but maybe you should check my math there. So, even though they’ve missed their starting QB for 9 games, they’re still 7-6 and in the playoff hunt. Mind you, a Colts team that was AWFUL last year. Just like us. Amazing! They must have made a deal with the devil in order to not be the 2nd worst team in the league even though they lost their quartback in the first quarter of the season.

But why stop the conversation there with just those three teams… you know… besides the fact that if you look even deeper at QB injuries you’ll see teams all over the league dealing with them and a lot even succeeding without starters who went down.

Like… the Browns who got 6 starts out of DeShaun Watson out of 13 games. Check my math again, but I’m pretty sure that means he played in 6 games and didn’t play in 7. I’m more a writer than a math expert but I’m pretty sure that’s over half the year and what do you know… they’re 8-5 and would be in the playoffs. But how?! Surely they should have crumbled without their QB!

Hell, the Jets lost their starting QB on the first play and they STILL have two more wins than we do.

So, those are the teams that have lost their QBs for longer than half the season. None of them are the second worst team in the league. Two of them are in the playoffs and the other is still 2 games better than we are.

Then you have the Vikings who have only had Cousins for 8 of 13 games and we’re 4-4 with him and have gone 3-2 without.

And again, the Bengals are 2-1 so far after Burrow went down. The Giants are 3-0 since Danny Dimes went down.

In other words, your excuse is just that… an excuse and an argument without evidence. Especially because this team KNEW Kyler was going to be out for the first half of the year and decided to do NOTHING that would help the team win in his absence, which was proven on the field en route to a pathetic 1-9 record.

 

[Chopper0080]

Are there really multiple pages of arguments over the distinction between "Ossenfort's primary goal was not 'to win games'" and "Ossenfort's primary goal was 'not to win games'" ?!?

Maybe if I phrase it differently...

Monti's primary goals for this season were things other than winning games.

 

[Chopper0080]

I have no problem with people saying that winning wasn't his first priority this offseason. I have listed above what I believe were his top priorities and stated that I believe changing the culture was his top priority this season.

What I do have a problem with is saying "Monti's primary goal this season was not to win games". IMO that means a totally different thing.

You are misinterpreting that phrase. I have restated it another way above this to hopefully move on.

 

[Chopper0080]

Monti couldn't keep D-Hop if he wanted to change the culture. No way Monti pays Zach Allen what he got.

Dobbs seems to get worse the longer he is in a system.

Monti's biggest failure was not bringing back Byron Murphy at CB. I think Murphy would have made a difference and he signed for a very reasonable price.

1 - A strong culture can withstand D-Hop. Vrabel wasn't scared of DHop.

2 - Zach Allen got paid appropriately for his production. You have to pay to sign or retain good players. If 15.5 per year is too much for Monti, he is going to have a rough go of things.

3 - This is what replaceable backups look like. It is why you don't give up 5th round picks for them.

4 - Yes, Monti should have also brought back Murphy.

 

[Chopper0080]

I've heard some pretty shocking stories about the toxic environment over on Hardy Dr last season. Trust me, a change was needed and winning wasn't going to cure it.

Almost like Keim and Bidwill were in charge.

 

[Yuma]

Not this season, which is the whole discussion. Well, less a discussion and more that plain facts don't support that Monti was doing all he could to win this season and others are just sticking their fingers in their ears and yelling "Nuh uh!"

Still if Kyler had not started his first four games at 2-2, how would you feel going forward at this point. They HAD to win some games. Again, did they have the overall talent? No. Could they have filled their roster with enough free agents and trades to win? I don't think so. It's not like they aren't about winning. It's a fact this franchise didn't really stock the cupboards in the recent past.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Still if Kyler had not started his first four games at 2-2, how would you feel going forward at this point. They HAD to win some games. Again, did they have the overall talent? No. Could they have filled their roster with enough free agents and trades to win? I don't think so. It's not like they aren't about winning. It's a fact this franchise didn't really stock the cupboards in the recent past.

It’s also a fact they continued on with that tradition this off-season, depending on Corpse McCoy to be the starter for the entirety of the off-season leaving us screwed at the most important position on the field for 9 games, letting multiple impact or good young players leave, while getting nothing in return, then not stocking the cupboards with anyone much of note in FA except bargain guys and then finally, valuing next year’s draft over this one, where we traded back away from high impact players up top and then took multiple players coming off injuries elsewhere high in the draft who wouldn’t be able to make much impact until well into the season.

 

[kerouac9]

It’s also a fact they continued on with that tradition this off-season, depending on Corpse McCoy to be the starter for the entirety of the off-season leaving us screwed at the most important position on the field for 9 games, letting multiple impact or good young players leave, while getting nothing in return, then not stocking the cupboards with anyone much of note in FA except bargain guys and then finally, valuing next year’s draft over this one, where we traded back away from high impact players up top and then took multiple players coming off injuries elsewhere high in the draft who wouldn’t be able to make much impact until well into the season.

Remember how we started Clayton Tune in a real NFL game against one of the best defenses in the league?

That was a real thing that happened.

It should be a 30 for 30.

 

[Stout]

Remind me again which of those teams lost their starting QB for half of the year?

Colts.