Beware the 4th Win

[Stout]

I have no problem with people saying that winning wasn't his first priority this offseason. I have listed above what I believe were his top priorities and stated that I believe changing the culture was his top priority this season.

What I do have a problem with is saying "Monti's primary goal this season was not to win games". IMO that means a totally different thing.

Good, then we can be done, because that's what everyone has been saying and you've been vehemently arguing against. We made it to an accord!

 

[DaHilg]

Colts.

Anthony Richardson is not better than Minshew at this point (I’ll be shocked if he ever will be)… I hated this pick with Colts being my team after AZ.

 

[Stout]

Anthony Richardson is not better than Minshew at this point (I’ll be shocked if he ever will be)… I hated this pick with Colts being my team after AZ.

We are in agreement. He's never going to be any good.

 

[Cardiac]

I want to understand this discussion better than I do.
Monti should have done a better job in FA because we could be fighting for a playoff spot in a very weak NFC.

Does this mean if we could have gotten into the playoffs we stood a chance of winning it all? I'd love to see who actually thinks this was possible.

Who here wants the best possible draft position to improve this teams future?

How many of us felt that KM is the definite franchise QB. I believe that Monti and JG do think he is but Monti isn't putting all his eggs in that basket.

This season was a reset and Monti may not of hit on a 100% of his moves but it may turn out he did.

What I love about this season was beating the Cowboys and Steelers.

As much as I hate the 9ers and Seahawks I want losses to them this year. A season with soooo many losses feels spoiled if we hurt our draft position with meaningless wins at this point.

 

[gimpy]

Anthony Richardson is not better than Minshew at this point (I’ll be shocked if he ever will be)… I hated this pick with Colts being my team after AZ.

When I was young, the Baltimore Colts and Johnny U. were my favorite team and player.

 

[cardncubfan]

When I was young, the Baltimore Colts and Johnny U. were my favorite team and player.

Same here gimpy. I became a Colts fan when they beat the Cowboys in the Superbowl in the early 70's. My older brother was a Cowboys fan so I had to root for the opposing team.

 

[cardncubfan]

Remind me again which of those teams lost their starting QB for half of the year?

Also need to consider strength of schedule.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I was replying to the comment that "Monti's primary goal this season was not to win games" which I do not agree with at all.

I've already mentioned what I felt Monti's primary goals were for this season but I will list them again:

*Changing the culture/Righting the ship - IMO the most important thing for Monti to accomplish this season. The dysfunction of the Keim era the last few years is a stain on this franchise.

*Moving on from the long list of Keim's players who didn't fit (This included McCoy)

*Building through the Draft

*Figuring out which players fit the new culture and trajectory of this team

*Identifying if Kyler Murray can be you Franchise QB

*Winning a Super Bowl as a long term goal.

*I also believe that Monti told JG to go out and win as many games as possible this season. I'm 99.9999% sure that no where on Monti's notebook of goals did he have "Not to win games this season". IMO the whole tanking for Caleb thing was manufactured by the national talking heads who knew very little about the workings of the new Cardinals front office.

I get it. You’re reading the statement the wrong way. It’s not that he set out to lose games as a primary goal. It’s that other goals were higher priorities than winning - aka, his primary goal was never winning. Winning wasn’t #1, aka not primary.

I don’t know if you were playing semantics or not understanding his sentence structure.

 

[daves]

I get it. You’re reading the statement the wrong way. It’s not that he set out to lose games as a primary goal. It’s that other goals were higher priorities than winning - aka, his primary goal was never winning. Winning wasn’t #1, aka not primary.

For crying out loud, this was obvious hundreds of posts ago and yet long after I posted this, the same back and forth keeps going and going. Mods, please kill this thread!!

Are there really multiple pages of arguments over the distinction between "Ossenfort's primary goal was not 'to win games'" and "Ossenfort's primary goal was 'not to win games'" ?!?

 

[schutd]

You are misinterpreting that phrase. I have restated it another way above this to hopefully move on.

One can hope.

 

[Yuma]

Speaking of free agents and Monti not going for more or better or whatever, didn't we have a lot of dead cap money to work through, too? Kinda makes sense in a season where you don't have your starting QB to NOT spend highly in free agency when the impact wasn't likely to move the meter much anyway.

 

[kerouac9]

Speaking of free agents and Monti not going for more or better or whatever, didn't we have a lot of dead cap money to work through, too? Kinda makes sense in a season where you don't have your starting QB to NOT spend highly in free agency when the impact wasn't likely to move the meter much anyway.

We created a lot of dead money. At the start of the offseason we ranked about the same for cap space as we will next offseason

 

[CardNots]

We created a lot of dead money. At the start of the offseason we ranked about the same for cap space as we will next offseason

Because of Tyler’s contract kicking in?

 

[Fitz4Ever]

We have been eliminated from the playoffs. People comparing us to the Lions of last year are insane. The Lions went 8-2 in their final 10 games, were 2nd in their division, and were eliminated just before their week 18 game.

We are 3-11, have already been eliminated in week 15, and are 4th in our division.

The people who root for us to "win every game possible, because pride, winning culture blah blah blah", you are of the same mindset as Michael Bidwill. That a meaningless win at the end of the season somehow "helps" the team...but it couldnt be further from the truth. Name ONE time...ONE...since 1984 that the Cardinals have won meaningless games and hurt their draft position after being eliminated from the playoffs, that is has actually led to any success in the future?

The team is going to look completely different next year...as it should whether we go 3-15 or 5-13...both of those records suck. Do you think any player is going to look back at this year and say.."well at least we beat the Seahawks in week 18". I mean honestly...it just loser mentality... kind of mentality that considers mediocre to be "ok" and "good" to be something you can only expect every 20 years. Its a big reason why the Cardinals are the team they are...because we have fans that say things like "well I know we only won 4 games, but Im proud that we won that week 18 game against a division rival whos beaten us 4 times in a row"

Any real fan of this team, that wants to actually see us get better, understands that a higher draft pick, especially in this draft is the ONLY saving grace and potential benefit from this season. If we stay at #3 we have our choice of 2 cornerstones, MHJ or Joe Alt. If we somehow move up to #2, we might get a trade offer that sets up Monti and the front office to completely refuel this roster.

Everyone who calls themselves a Cardinals fan should be praying we lose out...call this season what it was from the beginning ...a lost cause....and move onto to next year excited about the future.

 

[kerouac9]

If we stay at #3 we have our choice of 2 cornerstones, MHJ or Joe Alt. If we somehow move up to #2, we might get a trade offer that sets up Monti and the front office to completely refuel this roster.

We had the #3 pick in the draft last year

 

[Fitz4Ever]

We had the #3 pick in the draft last year

Yes, and we got a trade deal that allowed us to come out with the player we wanted at #6, and have an extra 1st and 3rd this year...in a better draft.

We finished last year on a 7 game losing streak...with close losses to Atl and TB. Is there anyone that thinks winning one...or even both of those games would have changed anything? Would you have wanted it to? Would you want a meaningless week 17 win against ATL to have saved KK or Keim's job? Does anyone think we would have "better moral" or more of a "winning culture" this year if we had won that game?

The only thing that would have changed is that we would have dropped a couple of spots in the draft, and probably still picked Paris Johnson.

I dont know about you but I like Paris Johnson + 1st & 3rd a hell of a lot better than Paris Johnson by himself.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

We have been eliminated from the playoffs. People comparing us to the Lions of last year are insane. The Lions went 8-2 in their final 10 games, were 2nd in their division, and were eliminated just before their week 18 game.

We are 3-11, have already been eliminated in week 15, and are 4th in our division.

The people who root for us to "win every game possible, because pride, winning culture blah blah blah", you are of the same mindset as Michael Bidwill. That a meaningless win at the end of the season somehow "helps" the team...but it couldnt be further from the truth. Name ONE time...ONE...since 1984 that the Cardinals have won meaningless games and hurt their draft position after being eliminated from the playoffs, that is has actually led to any success in the future?

The team is going to look completely different next year...as it should whether we go 3-15 or 5-13...both of those records suck. Do you think any player is going to look back at this year and say.."well at least we beat the Seahawks in week 18". I mean honestly...it just loser mentality... kind of mentality that considers mediocre to be "ok" and "good" to be something you can only expect every 20 years. Its a big reason why the Cardinals are the team they are...because we have fans that say things like "well I know we only won 4 games, but Im proud that we won that week 18 game against a division rival whos beaten us 4 times in a row"

Any real fan of this team, that wants to actually see us get better, understands that a higher draft pick, especially in this draft is the ONLY saving grace and potential benefit from this season. If we stay at #3 we have our choice of 2 cornerstones, MHJ or Joe Alt. If we somehow move up to #2, we might get a trade offer that sets up Monti and the front office to completely refuel this roster.

Everyone who calls themselves a Cardinals fan should be praying we lose out...call this season what it was from the beginning ...a lost cause....and move onto to next year excited about the future.

GTFOH with talk like this. It may be your mindset but there's no need to slam on diehard fans like my wife and I who attend every home game and - surprise - want us to win every game.

We're there to support the coaches and players and our fellow fans who actually do want to win each game, too.

If you want them to lose in order to get better, you might as well just go away and then come back when we're winning and suddenly popular again since you don't want to support them in down seasons.

It's ironic that you have Fitz in your username since he embodies the never say die and win even if you're out of it mentality that you are bashing fans for having. SMH.

Go Cards !! Beat the Bears !!

 

[kerouac9]

Yes, and we got a trade deal that allowed us to come out with the player we wanted at #6, and have an extra 1st and 3rd this year...in a better draft.

We finished last year on a 7 game losing streak...with close losses to Atl and TB. Is there anyone that thinks winning one...or even both of those games would have changed anything? Would you have wanted it to? Would you want a meaningless week 17 win against ATL to have saved KK or Keim's job? Does anyone think we would have "better moral" or more of a "winning culture" this year if we had won that game?

The only thing that would have changed is that we would have dropped a couple of spots in the draft, and probably still picked Paris Johnson.

I dont know about you but I like Paris Johnson + 1st & 3rd a hell of a lot better than Paris Johnson by himself.

So with last year's #3 pick we weren't able to get a franchise cornerstone to turn this franchise around, but surely this year, after a second consecutive failed season, we'll get multiple franchise cornerstones.

Got it.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

The people who root for us to "win every game possible, because pride, winning culture blah blah blah", you are of the same mindset as Michael Bidwill. That a meaningless win at the end of the season somehow "helps" the team...but it couldnt be further from the truth. Name ONE time...ONE...since 1984 that the Cardinals have won meaningless games and hurt their draft position after being eliminated from the playoffs, that is has actually led to any success in the future?

I would enjoy someone to flesh out the "play it the right way", and how it definitively worked out for us. Otherwise, it's just a bunch of noise.

Its a big reason why the Cardinals are the team they are...because we have fans that say things like "well I know we only won 4 games, but Im proud that we won that week 18 game against a division rival whos beaten us 4 times in a row"

Lotta copium with this fan base for sure.

Everyone who calls themselves a Cardinals fan should be praying we lose out...call this season what it was from the beginning ...a lost cause....and move onto to next year excited about the future.

100. Why should we care about wins when the FO didn't prioritize winning? If they can be pragmatic, why can't we?

 

[WakeForestCard]

So with last year's #3 pick we weren't able to get a franchise cornerstone to turn this franchise around, but surely this year, after a second consecutive failed season, we'll get multiple franchise cornerstones.

Got it.

Do you not think MHJ is a cornerstone player?

 

[kerouac9]

Do you not think MHJ is a cornerstone player?

I don't know. It's still December. It's really hard for me to think of any wideout as a cornerstone player, because while you need a really good player at the position to be successful, I don't think there's much difference between Justin Jefferson and Ja'Marr Chase and A.J. Brown.

 

[DVontel]

It's really hard for me to think of any wideout as a cornerstone player,

This is wild to think lol

 

[kerouac9]

This is wild to think lol

I literally explained why I thought that, but whatever.

Outside of Jerry Rice and Randy Moss, what WRs have served as cornerstone players for memorable/legendary teams?

Some of the best WRs of the past 20 years played for pretty mid programs: Fitz, Megatron, Andre Johnson, etc.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Some of the best WRs of the past 20 years played for pretty mid programs: Fitz, Megatron, Andre Johnson, etc.

Fitz will be a surefire hall of famer, and a top 10 WR all time, yet he really only dominated during the Super Bowl run. Other than that, he was much more consistent and steady than spectacular.

It would seem that a team needs a top tier WR to be a true contender, but I wonder if the data supports that position.

No matter what, Harrison is inarguably one of the best WR available from college in a long time. His combo of pedigree/measurables/stats is about as sure a thing as you can get in the draft.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I literally explained why I thought that, but whatever.

Outside of Jerry Rice and Randy Moss, what WRs have served as cornerstone players for memorable/legendary teams?

Some of the best WRs of the past 20 years played for pretty mid programs: Fitz, Megatron, Andre Johnson, etc.

True, but you’re talking about the impact those guys made in a league over a decade ago, that changed pretty drastically, moving much more towards the passing game then when those guys were in their heyday.