Beware the 4th Win

[ASUCHRIS]

Some seem to believe that the only way to rebuild is to get rid of everyone and start from scratch. Maybe it will work but that's a pretty narrow path to take, and using an entire year to evaluate current roster is something good teams simply don't do. It's a ridiculous luxury that good fan bases wouldn't tolerate.

 

[Dback Jon]

Some seem to believe that the only way to rebuild is to get rid of everyone and start from scratch. Maybe it will work but that's a pretty narrow path to take, and using an entire year to evaluate current roster is something good teams simply don't do. It's a ridiculous luxury that good fan bases wouldn't tolerate.

We don't have a good team. And this season, without Kyler for 8 games, and all the draft mistakes that Keim made, the team was going nowhere.

Are you implying that the Cardinals don't have a good fan base? We have tolerated far worse. At least this regime seems to have a plan and a direction.

Will it work? Only time will tell. But from MY perspective, I am more confident of the future than I was last year when it looked like we were stuck with KK and SK for another 3 years.

 

[kerouac9]

You're right, but it's been really difficult to argue otherwise with the statements I've seen you make regarding Monti's decisions since the offseason.

Sure, but that didn't stop you from slandering the choice of trading them for picks anyway.

This is where we disagree and a reason I made the first statement above in this post.

Keim was an embarrassing drunk. He never cost draft position because he was tampering with a coach. That's bad, right?

I thought the deals were dumb. They weren't made with an eye toward helping the Cards win games (which is Monti's stated goal). The deals are still sacrificing value; if there had been a backlog of good deals backstopping them, then there's capital to draw down on. LOL "slander."

You made wild assertions about what "Keim would have done" so often that I don't bother responding to them. I don't read alternative histories.

Never have I advocated for the Cards signing aging players to expensive deals with void years to stay competitive. If anything, this offseason I advocated for a GREATER teardown, jettisoning James Conner and Zach Ertz.

My bias, as I've consistently said, is toward entertaining football. I'm not 100% sure the coaching staff is going to lead to that. Shackling Kyler's mobility seems like a big step back from that goal.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

Some seem to believe that the only way to rebuild is to get rid of everyone and start from scratch. Maybe it will work but that's a pretty narrow path to take, and using an entire year to evaluate current roster is something good teams simply don't do. It's a ridiculous luxury that good fan bases wouldn't tolerate.

I guess we fans that go to every home game and support the team just suck. We have had some longtime season ticket holders quit on going to the games this season. I guess those were the good part of the fan base...

 

[ASUCHRIS]

We don't have a good team. And this season, without Kyler for 8 games, and all the draft mistakes that Keim made, the team was going nowhere.

If you say so. You can't conceive of a world where we built up an actual NFL quality team instead of a team full of hope and has been/never weres? A team where we invested adequate resources in offensive and defensive lines, and had the necessary weapons for Kyler to thrive? In 2021, we were looking like one of the best teams in the NFL for half of the season. Change CAN happen quickly, both good and bad.

You're willing to waste an ENTIRE SEASON playing house with the current roster and see what crops up. The alternative path of keeping/acquiring good players makes the MOST sense this year. Why? Because the NFC is absolute trash! The 4th seed right now is 6 and 7!!! There are 3 teams in the entire NFC that are more than 1 game better than .500. Many of us saw this coming based on the dearth of good QB's. If we had a semblance of a D, we'd be fighting for a playoff spot right now. Instead we're performing the annual Cards tradition of "will this top draft pick turn around our luck"?

We were competitive in games early in the season that we easily could have won if the goal were to win this year. Again - if the goal was to win, we have a problem because it is only delusion that leads to thinking this was a playoff team as constructed. If the goal wasn't to win, wow...an entire season blown for evaluation of our minimally talented team.

Are you implying that the Cardinals don't have a good fan base?

Uh, no. Crazy, yes...bad, no.

We have tolerated far worse. At least this regime seems to have a plan and a direction.

So you claim. I'd separate coaching staff and FO. Coaching staff gets a solid B from me. The effort is there, the gameplanning is good some weeks, not so great others. Monti's grade based on what he's done? He's made a lot of mistakes, mistakes indicative of a lack of experience. Between the Gannon hiring gaffe/getting nothing for Nuk/no Qb until 13 days before the season, there were lots of indications of a lack of preparation.

His selling point is the future - we'll see what he actually does with cap space/draft picks. It's far too early to come to a conclusion to that end, but if his goal was to put together one of the worst rosters in the NFL for 23, he did it.

Will it work? Only time will tell. But from MY perspective, I am more confident of the future than I was last year when it looked like we were stuck with KK and SK for another 3 years.

The Keim/Kingsbury duo was KIA before last year even started, as many of us pointed out. A different regime isn't necessarily better...we're all just hoping at this point.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I guess we fans that go to every home game and support the team just suck.

NO!!! YOU AREN'T THE TEAM!!! You are awesome and loyal, and deserve better than the crap shoved down your throat by the franchise! We all deserve at worst a mid team. We're not even close to that. My ire is directed at the problem - the Cards, and specifically ownership. Fans that show up every game show a level of loyalty that I can't muster.

We have had some longtime season ticket holders quit on going to the games this season. I guess those were the good part of the fan base...

I don't think that going or not going makes you a good fan. I was a season ticket holder in days of yore - the fact I refuse to go out there weekly to lose...does that make me a bad fan?

 

[MadCardDisease]

Some seem to believe that the only way to rebuild is to get rid of everyone and start from scratch. Maybe it will work but that's a pretty narrow path to take, and using an entire year to evaluate current roster is something good teams simply don't do. It's a ridiculous luxury that good fan bases wouldn't tolerate.

There are plenty of ways to rebuild a team. Monti decided to go the big purge route because the team that Monti inherited was not a good NFL team and the culture was beyond toxic.

 

[SoonerLou]

Keim was an embarrassing drunk. He never cost draft position because he was tampering with a coach. That's bad, right?

I thought the deals were dumb. They weren't made with an eye toward helping the Cards win games (which is Monti's stated goal). The deals are still sacrificing value; if there had been a backlog of good deals backstopping them, then there's capital to draw down on. LOL "slander."

You made wild assertions about what "Keim would have done" so often that I don't bother responding to them. I don't read alternative histories.

Never have I advocated for the Cards signing aging players to expensive deals with void years to stay competitive. If anything, this offseason I advocated for a GREATER teardown, jettisoning James Conner and Zach Ertz.

My bias, as I've consistently said, is toward entertaining football. I'm not 100% sure the coaching staff is going to lead to that. Shackling Kyler's mobility seems like a big step back from that goal.

It feels like Monti was assuming we'd be in the position the Bears are in. Lock #1 pick with the Texans (Panthers) being a disaster. Another top 5 pick, but if Kyler wins a few more games for morale no biggie.

Set up for a massive haul in a trade and still secure a top 5 player in the draft.

 

[DaHilg]

Its on Monti to get it right at WR though. If we dont get MHJ anyway and our Wr group looks similar we run the risk of cementing ourselves as 4th in the division next year.

Cause its clear Kyler needs a #1 WR.

As does any relevant QB in the NFL… literally every QB that’s relevant has a #1 (Kelce would be the case for KC currently..possibly the best TE in history)

 

[kerouac9]

It feels like Monti was assuming we'd be in the position the Bears are in. Lock #1 pick with the Texans (Panthers) being a disaster. Another top 5 pick, but if Kyler wins a few more games for morale no biggie.

Set up for a massive haul in a trade and still secure a top 5 player in the draft.

Well Monti doesn't get credit if his plan to have two top 10 picks fails. The trade value chart works by assuming that a future pick is valued as the last pick in that round. It was pretty easy to project Houston as being at least mediocre going into this year; they're Vegas over-under was 6.5.

What does a "massive haul in a trade" mean for you?

 

[AZCB34]

I know I'm looking too much into this because of the bold, but outside of Mahomes, this is every QB in the league.

Justin Jefferson and a couple others would disagree

 

[DVontel]

Justin Jefferson and a couple others would disagree

Justin Jefferson and a couple others would disagree about what?

 

[AZCB34]

Justin Jefferson and a couple others would disagree about what?

Maybe I misunderstood but it seemed as though you were suggesting that every QB in the league needs a#1 and some of them certainly have one.

Perhaps what you really meant is that Mahomes doesn’t need a #1 to be successful?

 

[DVontel]

Maybe I misunderstood

You did, lol.

Every QB to ever live needs WR1 to consistently play great. If they don’t have that WR1, then it’s a really dominant TE1. It looks like SoonerLou said Kyler needing a WR1 as a slight to Kyler when it reality that’s every QB needing one. Otherwise, you are failing them.

 

[Stout]

Kyler sucks vs the Rams most games.

True, but in that game the coaches specifically changed the play calling after the first drive to see Kyler within a tighter system. Not playing to win there.

 

[Stout]

Chop's evaluating Monti on his own terms. At least according to Michael Bidwill:



If you feel great about the Cards not getting anything for Hop, losing draft positioning for tampering when they were the only team with a head coach opening, and having to start a QB opening day who had been with the team for 13 days, do you.

It's hard to look at a position group on this team that will be better leaving 2023 than it was entering it. It's freaking easy to tear down; it's really hard to build back better.

This is not A- material, and you didn't even cover everything.

 

[Stout]

Correct.

Either everyone gets scolded for not giving him an incomplete, which is the fair grade at this point, or no one should

No, he has done a few objectively bad things that can be graded for certain.

 

[Stout]

I hear you but he was available by trade when they had money.

Bottom line - I am shocked Hopkins didn't get traded for something but to say it was a Monti blunder is speculation.

Strong speculation.

 

[kerouac9]

No, he has done a few objectively bad things that can be graded for certain.

Yeah. This is a results-based business. You can say Trust the Process and demand an incomplete grade, or you can say that Monti's failed spectacularly in building a competitive team that has put up a 3-10 record.

It's making some pretty strong assumptions and unfounded predictions to say that Monti's doing well in building a team when that team is objectively one of the worst in the NFL.

 

[football karma]

i think its fair to say that this is a big offseason for Monti

I'm willing to give him a pass for using this past year to generate options in the event they want to move on from Kyler. If that was the goal, he has done that.

IF they assume Kyler can be top 12 QB or so -- there is no reason not to be aggressive in FA.

For goodness sake -- the 6th and 7th current NFC playoff spots are teams with 7-6 and 6-7 records, respectively. The bar is pretty low and very reachable with a good offseason.

 

[ajcardfan]

Cutting Hopkins saved us $8 million in cap space this year (which will roll over) and $25 million next year. Plus there were rumors that he wanted out, and rumors that Bidwill demanded Monti get rid of him after Hopkin sat out games while healthy last year.

If we had Hopkins we would probably have 2 or 3 more wins and a draft pick around #14. Without Hopkins we have what should be a top 5 draft pick and $33 million extra cap space to use on a player that is a lot younger.

I don't have a problem with him not being here. I understand a rebuild. But, I don't understand why we let him go when we did for nothing. It wasn't necessary at that time.

 

[Chopper0080]

It's freaking easy to tear down; it's really hard to build back better.

I believe a lot of people miss how tough the second part can be.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

I believe a lot of people miss how tough the second part can be.

This

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[slanidrac16]

He is their best WR. They signed him off the street. He scored a TD today in a game they won by 1. He helped win a game. That is the goal. He had 3 TDs vs the Falcons in a game. That helped them win. Seems like he has improved the team and helped win games.

If you are implying that a player is only valuable if they lead the team to win 9 games, you are probably gong to struggle to sign any player. There isn't a FA on the market who comes with 9 wins.

I’m implying he is one guy and would not have suddenly made this a successful season nor would it made MO a genius by keeping him. I personally soured on him after his suspension and his perpetual DNP status week after week.
How much would Hopkins have helped us with McCoy or Dobbs throwing to him? IMO it was prudent to let him go.

 

[slanidrac16]

Don't forget that Hopkins is on record saying teams wouldn't call him back when he was a free agent (with no trade compensation).

The rest of what Monti should have done (trade wise) is pure speculation.

I hope we have a plan to sign an impactful Wr in free agency.