Bigger gap, Fisher---Levi/Potter or Warmack---Colledge/Snyder?

[Chopper0080]

You can't cut Colledge.

If the Cardinals draft Warmack my guess the line will be:

Brown, Colledge, Sendline, Warmack, Massie

I would guess the Cardinals would keep Warmack at LG like he played in college and then move Colledge over to RG. I would guess the Caridnals would want to put Warmack in the spot he would stay in since will will most likely be around longer than Colledge will.

 

[LuckyNumber11]

I think it's equal. Both are great players and both I think are going to hit top notch in the NFL. Can't go wrong either way IMHO

 

[MWOOD92]

F.A. (LT)
Warmack (LG)
Snyder (C)
Brown (RG)
Massie (RT)

now that just looks nasty (especially if we replaced Snyder with Jones)

 

[Chopper0080]

How much of previous draft position for players was a result of cost? Left Tackles and QBs and premier pass rushers were worth the extra money.

All that has changed now with the new CBA. So how will that affect teams rating of players?

Can teams afford to draft a Guard higher than in the past because they don't have to pay him $45 million guaranteed?

I would guess that you will see it more than we did in the past. Same goes for ILBs, Ss and TEs who are really special. It will still take a top player at those positions to be taken in the first, but I don't think teams will hesitate as much.

 

[jf-08]

FWIW - I would even contemplate a trade up to 5 or 6 to make sure I would get Warmack.

 

[Duckjake]

Ironic (?) that we all talk about needing to fix the offensive line while the Steelers talk about having to revamp their offensive line because their's was so bad the last two years that Arians was OC.

Looks like the Steelers are going to completely change their blocking scheme because of the fall off in production 2010-2012.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap10...burgh-steelers-set-to-use-zoneblocking-scheme

http://pittsburgh.sbnation.com/pitt...thlisberger-rashard-mendenhall-mario-williams (This is from 2011)

I just don't understand why the Bidwills think they can be as good as the Steelers were by taking guys the Steelers don't want anymore. It didn't work when Daddy did it with the Cowboys and I just don't think it's going to work now.

5-11 with 'em. 5-11 without 'em.

 

[jf-08]

Ironic (?) that we all talk about needing to fix the offensive line while the Steelers talk about having to revamp their offensive line because their's was so bad the last two years that Arians was OC.

Looks like the Steelers are going to completely change their blocking scheme because of the fall off in production 2010-2012.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap10...burgh-steelers-set-to-use-zoneblocking-scheme

http://pittsburgh.sbnation.com/pitt...thlisberger-rashard-mendenhall-mario-williams (This is from 2011)

I just don't understand why the Bidwills think they can be as good as the Steelers were by taking guys the Steelers don't want anymore. It didn't work when Daddy did it with the Cowboys and I just don't think it's going to work now.

5-11 with 'em. 5-11 without 'em.

Quit inserting logic into my fantasy.

 

[Chopper0080]

and too expensive to cut.

Our recent offensive line contracts have really sucked if you look at them.

Here are the cap ramifications of cutting Daryn Colledge, Adam Snyder and Lyle Sendlein.

Daryn Colledge has a 3.8mil base w/ 7.825 owed in guaranteed money, a 1mil roster bonus in 2013 and 200k in workout bonuses each year. If we cut Daryn Colledge in 2013 BEFORE his roster bonus, we would still have to eat the 7.825 in bonus money which means our cost differential would be 3.025 in extra cost. If we cut Colledge after June 1st, we could divide up the cap hit over two years, but we would still take a 4mil hit which would be 200k over his base salary. If we cut Colledge in the 2014 offseason, we still would have to pay him 4.55 mil in bonus money and would only save 250k in comparison to his base salary of 4.8 mil. Best option? Cut Colledge after June 1, 2014. This would adjust his cap hit to 4.7 which could be divided up over two years, and would free up about 2.4mil for the season.

Lyle Sendlein has 3.825 in bonus money owed and his 2013 is only 2.4mil. He is cuttable in 2014 where he only owed 2.55 mil in comparison to his 2.85 base. But you are still only looking at a savings of 300k.

Synder would cost 4 mil to cut, and his base is 2.9. Hell, even in 2014, Snyder would cost us 350k over his base salary to cut. He is with us for probably two more years.

Wow, great job Rod Graves and whichever idiot decided to bring these guys in. It is even more depressing to add these to the Kolb and Bradley contracts. 5 really bad deals that we are paying for now.

 

[kerouac9]

How much of previous draft position for players was a result of cost? Left Tackles and QBs and premier pass rushers were worth the extra money.

All that has changed now with the new CBA. So how will that affect teams rating of players?

Can teams afford to draft a Guard higher than in the past because they don't have to pay him $45 million guaranteed?

It's an excellent question, and we're not going to really know for a few years. I think that the other mitigating factor is that you're able to get good players at the other skill positions later in the draft, and the difference between the third-best and the twelfth-best guard in the NFL isn't as great as it is between the third-best and twelfth-best quarterback, pass rusher, or left tackle.

You're going to want to lock down your premire talent to those cheap contracts.

 

[Chopper0080]

Ironic (?) that we all talk about needing to fix the offensive line while the Steelers talk about having to revamp their offensive line because their's was so bad the last two years that Arians was OC.

Looks like the Steelers are going to completely change their blocking scheme because of the fall off in production 2010-2012.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap10...burgh-steelers-set-to-use-zoneblocking-scheme

http://pittsburgh.sbnation.com/pitt...thlisberger-rashard-mendenhall-mario-williams (This is from 2011)

I just don't understand why the Bidwills think they can be as good as the Steelers were by taking guys the Steelers don't want anymore. It didn't work when Daddy did it with the Cowboys and I just don't think it's going to work now.

5-11 with 'em. 5-11 without 'em.

Not really a fair shot IMO. The Steelers have relied upon Max Starks, Willie Colon, Marcus Gilbert, Doug Legursky and Maurkice Pouncey to hold up their offensive line over the last two years Arians was there and they have since added DeCastro and Mike Adams to try and shore up the talent. None of the five previously mentioned started an entire year in those two years. There line has been a mess, but seemed to have more to do with personnel than scheme. Also, consider Roethlisberger doesn't do himself any favors by holding onto the ball longer than most QBs in the league.

 

[GatorAZ]

F.A. (LT)
Warmack (LG)
Snyder (C)
Brown (RG)
Massie (RT)

now that just looks nasty (especially if we replaced Snyder with Jones)

We can't afford a FA LT who's an upgrade over Levi/Potter. Also I wouldn't take too much from the last part of season where Snyder played center. While Lyle is mediocre he's still better than Snyder.

 

[Duckjake]

Not really a fair shot IMO. The Steelers have relied upon Max Starks, Willie Colon, Marcus Gilbert, Doug Legursky and Maurkice Pouncey to hold up their offensive line over the last two years Arians was there and they have since added DeCastro and Mike Adams to try and shore up the talent. None of the five previously mentioned started an entire year in those two years. There line has been a mess, but seemed to have more to do with personnel than scheme. Also, consider Roethlisberger doesn't do himself any favors by holding onto the ball longer than most QBs in the league.

Sounds like the same situation we have in Arizona. So if Arians couldn't fix it in 5 years in Pittsburgh what makes people think he can do it here?

 

[Chopper0080]

Sounds like the same situation we have in Arizona. So if Arians couldn't fix it in 5 years in Pittsburgh what makes people think he can do it here?

A head coach has a bit more input than offensive coordinator under a defensive head coach. Just my opinion. I think the Steelers tried to get more out of Ben than they should have. Counted on him to evade the rush so the Steelers could improve in other areas of the team.

Just my own opinion. Pats did it with Brady for a while and then started draft tackles.

The Packers have a similar problem. The OTs they drafted haven't panned out and Rodgers is getting hit a ton.

Giants do the same.

Offensive line play is down league wide if you really watch.

 

[MWOOD92]

We can't afford a FA LT who's an upgrade over Levi/Potter. Also I wouldn't take too much from the last part of season where Snyder played center. While Lyle is mediocre he's still better than Snyder.

I'm sure we can make room for a FA LT. Remember Levi is a liability in pass protection and would be better suited as an RT or possibly OG. I chose Snyder over Sendlein solely based on his contract. It will be very unlikely we cut him. Same goes for Colledge.

 

[GatorAZ]

I'm sure we can make room for a FA LT. Remember Levi is a liability in pass protection and would be better suited as an RT or possibly OG. I chose Snyder over Sendlein solely based on his contract. It will be very unlikely we cut him. Same goes for Colledge.

Maybe some scrub for vet minimum. If you think Jake Long or Brandon Albert will come here you'll be disappointed. And Massie is the franchise RT. Levi will play LT and hopefully have help with a TE or RB.

 

[GatorAZ]

Our recent offensive line contracts have really sucked if you look at them.

Here are the cap ramifications of cutting Daryn Colledge, Adam Snyder and Lyle Sendlein.

Daryn Colledge has a 3.8mil base w/ 7.825 owed in guaranteed money, a 1mil roster bonus in 2013 and 200k in workout bonuses each year. If we cut Daryn Colledge in 2013 BEFORE his roster bonus, we would still have to eat the 7.825 in bonus money which means our cost differential would be 3.025 in extra cost. If we cut Colledge after June 1st, we could divide up the cap hit over two years, but we would still take a 4mil hit which would be 200k over his base salary. If we cut Colledge in the 2014 offseason, we still would have to pay him 4.55 mil in bonus money and would only save 250k in comparison to his base salary of 4.8 mil. Best option? Cut Colledge after June 1, 2014. This would adjust his cap hit to 4.7 which could be divided up over two years, and would free up about 2.4mil for the season.

Lyle Sendlein has 3.825 in bonus money owed and his 2013 is only 2.4mil. He is cuttable in 2014 where he only owed 2.55 mil in comparison to his 2.85 base. But you are still only looking at a savings of 300k.

Synder would cost 4 mil to cut, and his base is 2.9. Hell, even in 2014, Snyder would cost us 350k over his base salary to cut. He is with us for probably two more years.

Wow, great job Rod Graves and whichever idiot decided to bring these guys in. It is even more depressing to add these to the Kolb and Bradley contracts. 5 really bad deals that we are paying for now.

BRUTAL... Great breakdown but brutal.

If we can get 53 or so guys and still be under the cap we should eat our mistakes and cut ties. Paying Colledge 7m to go away is horrendous but the payoff will be in 2014... We'll probably end up restructuring Snyder and keep him as a backup and pushing his money into the future. Colledge they'll have to get tricky, we don't have much leverage with him.

 

[Duckjake]

A head coach has a bit more input than offensive coordinator under a defensive head coach. Just my opinion. I think the Steelers tried to get more out of Ben than they should have. Counted on him to evade the rush so the Steelers could improve in other areas of the team.

Just my own opinion. Pats did it with Brady for a while and then started draft tackles.

The Packers have a similar problem. The OTs they drafted haven't panned out and Rodgers is getting hit a ton.

Giants do the same.

Offensive line play is down league wide if you really watch.

Oh I know. K9 and I have discussed this before. A result of all the Spread Offenses and holding not being called in college much at all among other things.

But my hopes for us for 2013 are based on Grimm being gone and better oline coaches coming in and it is disconcerting to see Steeler fans calling their offensive line the worst in the NFL, just like we do ours.

 

[kerouac9]

A head coach has a bit more input than offensive coordinator under a defensive head coach. Just my opinion. I think the Steelers tried to get more out of Ben than they should have. Counted on him to evade the rush so the Steelers could improve in other areas of the team.

Just my own opinion. Pats did it with Brady for a while and then started draft tackles.

The Packers have a similar problem. The OTs they drafted haven't panned out and Rodgers is getting hit a ton.

Giants do the same.

Offensive line play is down league wide if you really watch.

Yes. The number of elite LTs in the NFL is maybe 1 or 2, and it's just a different age than when Walter Jones, Orlando Pace, Jonathan Ogden, and maybe one or two other really elite tackles were roaming the gridiron. Joe Staley has established himself as a perennial pro bowler at this point, and he's nowhere near as good as those guys. I blame colleges for failing to identify and develop these guys.

 

[JeffGollin]

Not really a fair shot IMO. The Steelers have relied upon Max Starks, Willie Colon, Marcus Gilbert, Doug Legursky and Maurkice Pouncey to hold up their offensive line over the last two years Arians was there and they have since added DeCastro and Mike Adams to try and shore up the talent. None of the five previously mentioned started an entire year in those two years. There line has been a mess, but seemed to have more to do with personnel than scheme. Also, consider Roethlisberger doesn't do himself any favors by holding onto the ball longer than most QBs in the league.

Weren't Pouncey and DeCastro on IR for at least part of the season? The problem may have been due less to the talent of OL personnel than it did with the durability of personnel.

 

[MWOOD92]

Maybe some scrub for vet minimum. If you think Jake Long or Brandon Albert will come here you'll be disappointed. And Massie is the franchise RT. Levi will play LT and hopefully have help with a TE or RB.

Long, no. Albert, possibly. There's also Beatty, Baker, and a few others that are also possible. The Cardinals FO can easily make room for one them.

 

[SissyBoyFloyd]

I dont care what we do at QB this coming year. I will leave those thoughts solely on our new coaching staff and their evaluation of what we have and were they want to go as far as a QB is concerned.

I just hope they realize how sick all of us are of not having a cohesive OL. I, like so many of us, just want us to finally once and for all end this futility. Thus I would like to see something in the lines of:

1st: Warmack
2nd or 3rd: OL: Travis Frederick Wisc, Brian Schwenke Calif, Larry Warford Kentucky
2nd or 3rd: S: J.J. Wilcox Georgia Southern or Phillip Thomas Fresno St

 

[GuernseyCard]

This is a dumb argument because more OGs are taken in the later rounds, and very few guards are taken in the first round. Of course when you vastly increase the sample size, there are going to be more misses. Same with quarterbacks drafted after the first round, running backs taken after the first round, etc., etc.



The Cards had a 1st round LT in L.J. Shelton and a 2nd round RT in Anthony Clement. Where do you think the Cards were planning on playing the 2nd pick in the NFL draft? The argument was that the Cards were going to become a running team, and invested a ton of draft picks and free agency money in the "Big Red Line" to support the previous year's top pick, Thomas Jones.

Davis was only permanently moved to tackle once Dennis Green came on board, looked at Davis's salary schedule, and decided that keeping him at guard was unacceptable.

If you think the Cards were selecting BIG to be anything but the LT of the future, you're the only man in creation. (IMO)

But, if true, he's then the highest drafted guard of all time, and there should be no issue with drafting Warmack at #7.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

How may 1st round guards have gone in the top 15 overall over the last 10 years?

How many guards have had the talent to warrant it ?

No many. Warmack is one of them. He is a freak athlete for that size.

What would Emmitt Smith be without Larry Allen, or Shaun Alexander without Steve Hutchinson ?

 

[kerouac9]

If you think the Cards were selecting BIG to be anything but the LT of the future, you're the only man in creation. (IMO)

But, if true, he's then the highest drafted guard of all time, and there should be no issue with drafting Warmack at #7.

Maybe you weren't a Cardinals fan at the time that we drafted Leonard Davis. Because what you're saying is not in line with reality:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/2001/draft/news/2001/04/21/cardinals_draft_ap/

Davis initially could play guard for Arizona. The Cardinals already have two good, young offensive tackles in L.J. Shelton and Anthony Clement. They signed free-agent guard Pete Kendall in the offseason.

Again, the Cards had just drafted L.J. Shelton two years before, in 1999, with a first-round pick. People were saying that same thing about Davis then as many are saying about Warmack now, only Davis actually played tackle in college.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

And not a single one was drafted in the top 15 overall. I love Warmack but don't like using the #7 overall pick on him. Wouldn't mind moving back a few spots picking up a extra pick and selecting him if he is still there.

Cardinals Rules of Drafting:

1. When Terrell Suggs is there, pick him. Cause if you trade back you might have to deal with settling for Calvin Pace, and Bryant Johnson.

If Warmack is there, you take him. He is the BPA at that point if Joeckel is not there, and he won't be.

To be honest, I would be surprised if Warmack is there at 7.