Bill Simmons on Atlanta pick

[damo]

question.
when the suns drafted luol deng with the #7 pick and traded him to the bulls, what did they get in return besides jackson vroman? was it cash? and would i be correct in saying that was sarver's first draft? i watched the bulls game yesterday, and it made me think about what might have been.

 

[hcsilla]

question.
when the suns drafted luol deng with the #7 pick and traded him to the bulls, what did they get in return besides jackson vroman?

Bulls' 2005 1st rounder which was later traded away for Kurt Thomas and finally turned out to be Nate Robinson.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Bulls' 2005 1st rounder which was later traded away for Kurt Thomas and finally turned out to be Nate Robinson.

Which wasn't all bad since we got out of Q's deal.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Even when his prediction didn't happen, it was quite clear that the team was trying to make it happen and failed.

You mean like last summer, when he said the Suns were "48 hours away" from a trade with an Eastern Conference team for a big and a PG?

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=74908

Or more recently, when he announced "like it was fact" that Banks would be gone by the deadline?

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=82992&page=6

As I said before, there's a lot of selective memory going on. No one seems to remember the times that he's wrong, and the times that he's right, it's either (a) old news, or (b) a vague enough "prediction" that all kinds of things can be interpreted as having satisfied it.

He's the Nostradamus of Suns roster moves.

Well, lets see. We were desperately trying to trade Banks right up until the deadline. It was a prediction he made, it was based upon facts he had, and it looked pretty close.

I don't remember the 48 hours deal, so I can't comment on it. Eric, you are ususally correct with your facts (although I question the conclusions you draw from them at times) so I assume he was just wrong.

What is true is that the vast majority of the time, what we get from Gambo about the Suns is based upon reliable information he is getting about what they are trying to do. It doesn't always happen, and sometimes its a little garbled, but its more insider info than we get from anyone else in the media--local or national.

I can't believe I am defending this guy because in every other way on the air, I think he is a bozo.

 

[elindholm]

Well, lets see. We were desperately trying to trade Banks right up until the deadline. It was a prediction he made, it was based upon facts he had, and it looked pretty close.

Yes, but everyone knew the Suns were down on Banks. It required no great journalistic insight to report that. Gambo's contribution was to guarantee that a trade would happen, and it didn't.

I don't remember the 48 hours deal, so I can't comment on it.

I was just going by what was reported on this board. I've never listened to him myself, so I don't know for sure what he did or did not say.

What is true is that the vast majority of the time, what we get from Gambo about the Suns is based upon reliable information he is getting about what they are trying to do.

I think that's probably true in general, although I rather doubt that the Suns were ever seriously pursuing the Bryant-McGrady double acquisition he crowed about two summers ago. Remember that one?

its more insider info than we get from anyone else in the media--local or national.

I would describe it as "at least as good insider info." It's almost impossible to get good insider information, of course. I can believe that he does a better than average job. Personally I prefer hoopshype, as long as you pay attention to whom they're quoting.

By the way, there's an insider who clues me in on things from time to time. I never say anything about it because I don't want to blow his cover. He was the first to tell me, for instance, that the Joe Johnson situation was disintegrating and that the Suns were looking at Diaw. He has also given me advance notice on other possibilities which didn't pan out and were never discussed on this board. Overall I'd guess that his track record is better than Gambo's, but I haven't been keeping score.

What bugs me about Gambo is that every time he says something, this board assumes it's going to happen, and we get a litany of posts about how connected he is and how everything he says is automatically legitimate. And that's just hogwash.

 

[Hugh D'Man]

Which wasn't all bad since we got out of Q's deal.

and which isn't all that good considering we SHOULD have Deng.

But, standard practice with Suns Fans is to applaud damage control from bad deals (Q).



One could look at the net result from those transactions and say we essentially signed Kurt Thomas and traded Luol Deng for Jackson Vrohman.


Thanks GM of the Yr....

 

[hcsilla]

One could look at the net result from those transactions and say we essentially signed Kurt Thomas and traded Luol Deng for Jackson Vrohman.

Yeah, or more accurately:

We traded Luol Deng for Jackson Vroman that we should be able to sign Kurt Thomas.

 

[Hugh D'Man]

It was the beginning of the 'blunder moves' that we are still trying to correct. I for one, was not entirely unhappy when BC crossed the border. I think, w/o him, JCs input diminished, along with his 'bankrupt the future for the present' attitude. I hope the current honchos look into our past and see the benefits of drafting talent and not just rely on buying it. A promising rookie has much more value than an aging vet.
(ie Pike vrs Rodriguez?)

 

[azirish]

I find it curious how often people get invested in published rumors dispite the fact that the people spreading them generally seem to spend less time focusing on basketball than people on this board.

General reporters like Gambo and Ash are supposed to be able to talk about all the teams and still be entertaining. Mostly they focus on being entertaining, with fact checking being a low priority. They are not reporters and should not be treated as such.

Rumors from someone like Paul Coro are lot more significant, but extremely rare. Paul is almost exclusively assigned to the Suns and very rarely speculates.

In any case, it is hard to evaluate the post BC regime's moves yet.

1. Low balling Tim Thomas - stoke of genius.
2. Signing Barbosa for just over MLE - stroke of genius
3. Not dumping James Jones - very good move

4. Signing Boris to a big extension - a small mistake. Boris is likely to be a good player, but he was overpaid because of an overreaction to the JJ situation.
5. Signing Banks looks a mistake - he's much slower at picking up the Suns system than was hoped. He was clearly shopped, but so was James Jones a year ago. Time will tell if it was a pure blunder.

6. Trading pick 22 for this summer's Cleveland pick remains uncertain. Most indications are the 2007 draft will be very deep, but it is reasonable to think that Marcus Williams would have done better than Banks for less money. It will take a great pick or being part of strong trade to make up for the Banks over Williams decision.

7. Trading the 27 pick may be related to the Sun's strategy for the 2007 draft. One possible goal was to reduce the number of multi-year contracts. Guys with one year deals are Rose, Jumaine Jones, Sean Marks, and Pat Burke. Pike has a two year deal which means they can use his contract for cap filler in a trade. In any case, there is at least an outside chance the Suns could keep all three picks this year which would not be possible if they had used the 27.

On a balance, I'd say the results are "OK" but far from outstanding. Boris is likely to turn into a very good player and Banks may contribute someday.

On the plus side, the Suns started out with a solid team and didn't mess it up.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I find it curious how often people get invested in published rumors dispite the fact that the people spreading them generally seem to spend less time focusing on basketball than people on this board.

General reporters like Gambo and Ash are supposed to be able to talk about all the teams and still be entertaining. Mostly they focus on being entertaining, with fact checking being a low priority. They are not reporters and should not be treated as such.

Rumors from someone like Paul Coro are lot more significant, but extremely rare. Paul is almost exclusively assigned to the Suns and very rarely speculates.

In any case, it is hard to evaluate the post BC regime's moves yet.

1. Low balling Tim Thomas - stoke of genius.
2. Signing Barbosa for just over MLE - stroke of genius
3. Not dumping James Jones - very good move

4. Signing Boris to a big extension - a small mistake. Boris is likely to be a good player, but he was overpaid because of an overreaction to the JJ situation.
5. Signing Banks looks a mistake - he's much slower at picking up the Suns system than was hoped. He was clearly shopped, but so was James Jones a year ago. Time will tell if it was a pure blunder.

6. Trading pick 22 for this summer's Cleveland pick remains uncertain. Most indications are the 2007 draft will be very deep, but it is reasonable to think that Marcus Williams would have done better than Banks for less money. It will take a great pick or being part of strong trade to make up for the Banks over Williams decision.

7. Trading the 27 pick may be related to the Sun's strategy for the 2007 draft. One possible goal was to reduce the number of multi-year contracts. Guys with one year deals are Rose, Jumaine Jones, Sean Marks, and Pat Burke. Pike has a two year deal which means they can use his contract for cap filler in a trade. In any case, there is at least an outside chance the Suns could keep all three picks this year which would not be possible if they had used the 27.

On a balance, I'd say the results are "OK" but far from outstanding. Boris is likely to turn into a very good player and Banks may contribute someday.

On the plus side, the Suns started out with a solid team and didn't mess it up.

Great post. Its how it is with even the best management teams, some good moves, a great one here and there, a lot of mediocre ones, and a few stinkers thrown in.

It just like with JC. There was the Nance for KJ, Corbin and Majerle (the pick we got). But then there was also the Majerle for Hot Rod move.

 

[PhxGametime]

6. Trading pick 22 for this summer's Cleveland pick remains uncertain. Most indications are the 2007 draft will be very deep, but it is reasonable to think that Marcus Williams would have done better than Banks for less money. It will take a great pick or being part of strong trade to make up for the Banks over Williams decision.

It just wasn't Marcus Williams... Farmar, Rondo, Rodriquez, etc. (even Daniel Gibson doesn't look too bad). Outside of Law (a prospect not too familiar with), I don't see many PG's even as regarded as those Prospects. Even the SG's: Roy, Sefolosha, Carney, and Brewer all impress ME more than the SG's in this Draft class... Budinger is a stud but there's been reports, he likely won't enter Draft. Only mentioning SG's because with Barbosa playing well as back-up SG... the Team could use a tall SG (with Point skills) alongside Barbosa.


There are some nice SF's but none in Marion's class (if you want to replace him) and with Marion, Diaw, Bell, Jones; that's the last position I'd want to Draft.


The F/C area is pretty solid in depth upfront but as much as I want Noah to be selection (I REALLY like Julian Wright though) I'm just not sure I'd Trade much to move up... Noah's height, passing, and shot blocking ability would be welcomed but he doesn't impress like the Howard's, Okafor's, etc. do...


I'm thinking more like a Frye, Biedrins, Diaw; type role player.


Also, I stay away from much other than Draft but I believe the Suns will regret not Trading KT and low 1st Rounder for a replacement in PJ Brown and expiring contract... but we shall see.

 

[azirish]

We don't know who called off the PJ for KT deal. In the short run, KT looks like he could be a much bigger impact on the Bulls than the Suns because they don't play small as much and really need more scoring from the PF slot.

PJ's a solid player with an expiring contract, but may not be as much help to the Suns in the season's run.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Great post. Its how it is with even the best management teams, some good moves, a great one here and there, a lot of mediocre ones, and a few stinkers thrown in.

It just like with JC. There was the Nance for KJ, Corbin and Majerle (the pick we got). But then there was also the Majerle for Hot Rod move.

it was actually nance and mike sanders for kj, corbin, mark west and the majerle pick. a good trade for both teams.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Our best window to win a championship might be right now. Who knows what will happen next year. I have seen this too often with the Suns.

In 76 we thought, this is young team, surely we'll be back again next year. It didn't happen.

It was the same in 92-93.

That said. I am so glad we didn't trade away ANYONE that we thought might be remotely helpful in winning it all this year.

THERE IS NO TOMORROW. Until the day after this season ends.

 

[panfolk]

It just wasn't Marcus Williams... Farmar, Rondo, Rodriquez, etc. (even Daniel Gibson doesn't look too bad). Outside of Law (a prospect not too familiar with), I don't see many PG's even as regarded as those Prospects. Even the SG's: Roy, Sefolosha, Carney, and Brewer all impress ME more than the SG's in this Draft class... Budinger is a stud but there's been reports, he likely won't enter Draft. Only mentioning SG's because with Barbosa playing well as back-up SG... the Team could use a tall SG (with Point skills) alongside Barbosa.


There are some nice SF's but none in Marion's class (if you want to replace him) and with Marion, Diaw, Bell, Jones; that's the last position I'd want to Draft.


The F/C area is pretty solid in depth upfront but as much as I want Noah to be selection (I REALLY like Julian Wright though) I'm just not sure I'd Trade much to move up... Noah's height, passing, and shot blocking ability would be welcomed but he doesn't impress like the Howard's, Okafor's, etc. do...


I'm thinking more like a Frye, Biedrins, Diaw; type role player.


Also, I stay away from much other than Draft but I believe the Suns will regret not Trading KT and low 1st Rounder for a replacement in PJ Brown and expiring contract... but we shall see.

Good post. I think Rodriguez for cash is going to come back to bite them on the ass and leave Marv Albert marks.

Noah may be a role player but with Amare raising his game to the heights he has this season (passing, defense) do we really need another absolute stud at C?

Glad to see this thread was reclaimed.

 

[dodie53]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=CLAiThhxNaQ

can the suns sign this guy?
lol

 

[azirish]

Trading picks is always a potential mistake. Ask the Spurs if they'd like to have the pick used for Barbosa back.

The flip side is that most draft picks fail. For every late first gem, there are at least three to four total bomb outs.