Boivin TT article - a must read

Alan

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NastyOne said:
Okay stat stuffer might've been going to far, but he still is a player that you don't gameplan for or gameplan to stop.

And hes making max money for that? You don't even know Marion's on the court most of the time hes out there.Other than the big dunks.

Hes a nice player, and i would also be in love with him if he made 10mil per.

But at 16mil? :eek:

So they don't run plays for him and he stills gets 20ppg? Yeah, what a waste of money.

How many other players in the NBA average 20/10? Dirk, Brand and Duncan. That's it. Not LeBron, not Shaq, not Vince Carter, not Carmelo. Which of these guys would only get $10 million per year as a free agent?

There is no problem with a guy getting a "quiet" 20/10 when playing for a top team. It's not like he plays much in garbage time. Plus he played out of position the entire year.
 

JCSunsfan

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NastyOne said:
But what happens if someone else goes down? Like how someone always goes down with us.

We have no depth, and one injury to anyone in our top 7 hurts us bigtime.

If Parker or Manu get hurt, Spurs can take that hit cause they have the depth.more.

There seems to be one dominant characteristic of all NBA championship teams--their core players are healthy for the playoff run. The Spurs and Mavs may survive during the regular season, and they might even get through a round or two of the playoffs, but they are not winning championships without any one of Manu, Duncan, Ginobili etc.

As far as us and injuries. We are dreaming if we think we can stay healthy next year. We have:

Our star player who has just come off microfracture surgery.
Our starting pg and league mvp with a cracked vertebra.
Our starting center with a history of injuries that are chronic (stress fractures are chronic).
Our starting sg who recently suffered a calf-tear (but he should recover from this).

Our most healthy core player is Marion and many want to trade him away.

Its not IF we have injuries--its WHEN. Our best hope is to be healthy for the playoff run.

That's just where we are, and I don't see anything that we can do to lessen our injury risk outside of trading Amare.
 

Treesquid PhD

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elindholm said:
All right, I have to come out of hiding for this.

Tim Thomas would have been a fine signing at $21 million over four years, or even for the $24 million that the Clippers gave him.

Yes, his attitude is questionable, he doesn't make much effort on the boards, and he's a mediocre defender at best. But that's why he's not worth more than the MLE.

Every option that has been brought up since Thomas left has major problems. They're always injured, or they can't shoot, or they're awful defensively, or they already have one foot out the retirement door. That's another reason Thomas was worth the MLE. Cheaper players, by and large, suck.

The Suns lucked out big time with Raja Bell last summer. He took slightly less than the MLE and turned out to be a very good starting SG. Does anyone think that he would take the MLE now, after what he showed this past season? He'd probably be able to command a starting salary of $7 million from a team with cap space.

The Suns say their top eight are set, huh? I guess that has to include James Jones. I like Jones, but anyone who watched these recent playoffs knows that he would not even have gotten off the bench had Stoudemire and Kurt Thomas been able to contribute. He was simply outclassed. The Suns used him in desperation, and he did what he could, but it wasn't much. Now he's a lock for the top eight? And remember, it's "top eight" only if everyone stays healthy.

Thomas, had he taken $21/4, would have made about $2 million more per year than Jones. Knock Thomas's effort all you like, but he's a huge upgrade over Jones. If the Suns are really that worried about every penny, don't you think they could have packaged Jones with one of their picks to a team with cap space?

I can tell you where we're all going to be a year from now. We'll be lamenting a loss in the second or third round of the playoffs, blaming it on the bad luck of an injury or one key player hitting a slump. Serious contenders don't go into the season saying, "If everything goes exactly perfectly, we have a pretty good chance." They plan for other contingencies.

By this point, it's clear that none of the roster fill-outs are going to be impact players. All of you that have been asking to see what last year's roster could have done, you have your wish -- last year's roster is exactly what they're going to have.

I'm sure this next point will make me very unpopular, but too bad: Marion's contract is killing the Suns. Except for teams with infinite payrolls, a championship rotation is made up of these kinds of players:

1. Stars on big contracts
2. Role players on affordable contracts
3. "Bargain" players who are either youngsters still on their cheap rookie deals, veterans playing for cheap to chase the dream, or diamonds in the rough who step up unexpectedly

Categories (2) and (3) are critical. In (2), the Suns have only Bell and Jones (unless you want to call Kurt Thomas's contract "affordable"). In (3), they have Diaw and Barbosa -- and no one else, since they don't add rookies to the roster anymore. Maybe they hoped that the old "join us for a championship" sell would lure some solid veterans, but that hasn't happened.

So it all comes down to their group (1). The Suns' big three will combine for about $38 million next year. The Heat's big three, by salary (O'Neal, Williams, and Walker) combine for only $36 million -- and they have Wade, still on his rookie deal. For San Antonio (Duncan, Parker, Ginobili), it's also $36 million. Dallas, if you ignore Finley, has Nowitzki, Dampier, and Stackhouse combining for $32 million (and they have infinite money anyway). We can't look at Detroit right now, because we don't know what's going on with them.

So among the likely contenders, the Suns are paying the most for their three biggest contracts. The franchise is financially handicapped, and it's starting to show.

Marion makes more money than any player on those top teams, other than Shaquille O'Neal and Tim Duncan. He makes more than Nowitzki, Elton Brand, or anyone on the Pistons. (He makes more than Chauncey Billups and Rip Hamilton combined.) Some on this board are fond of saying that the money doesn't matter to us fans. Well, when it has a direct impact on the team's ability to prepare for a championship run, I think it matters.

Imagine if Marion was making a few million dollars per year less, more in line with his status as the third (or fourth) best player on a contending team. The Suns could have rolled the dice with Tim Thomas and not been paralyzed with fear about getting stuck behind his "big" contract. They could have kept one of their first-round picks, just in case they were wrong about how good a player he might become. (It's been known to happen.) They could be more of a player right now with the low-level free agents still looking for homes, instead of settling for a joke like Eric Piatkowski. They could try to bribe a player over from Europe -- think D'Antoni might know of any?

Instead, they're completely stuck. The reason they aren't making any real moves is because they can't afford to. And anyone who thinks they're going to add three rookies next summer is dreaming, because the problem is only going to get worse with the extensions to Diaw and possibly Barbosa.

D'Antoni says he can't imagine the Suns winning a championship without Marion on the roster. That's sweet. Unfortunately, I say the opposite. I can't see them winning a title as long as he's here. He's a great guy, plays hard, and brings a lot to the floor. But he simply makes way too much money to be a third or fourth option. That's becoming clearer by the day, and for those of you who don't see that yet, you might as well start coming up with your other excuses for why the Suns will fail again this year.

Fantastic post man,

So this argument really opened my eyes, emotionally and despite all his quarks I love Marion because he is a true Sun, but when you put it in those terms you are 100% correct, Marion as our third best player makes too much money.

So I ask the question can we ride him this year and deal him next season? How many years does he have left 3?
 

Hugh D'Man

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Only the departure of Marion will answer the Question if his value =s his paycheck.

I happen to think for 15 million, we could find 20pts and 10 rebounds. But it isn't going to come from one player, unless his name is Garnett.

It seems relatively even between the proShawns and conShawns, but keep in mind, if he was dealt, his replacement in this yrs line up is Amare.
 

Treesquid PhD

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JCSunsfan said:
There seems to be one dominant characteristic of all NBA championship teams--their core players are healthy for the playoff run. The Spurs and Mavs may survive during the regular season, and they might even get through a round or two of the playoffs, but they are not winning championships without any one of Manu, Duncan, Ginobili etc.

As far as us and injuries. We are dreaming if we think we can stay healthy next year. We have:

Our star player who has just come off microfracture surgery.
Our starting pg and league mvp with a cracked vertebra.
Our starting center with a history of injuries that are chronic (stress fractures are chronic).
Our starting sg who recently suffered a calf-tear (but he should recover from this).

Our most healthy core player is Marion and many want to trade him away.

Its not IF we have injuries--its WHEN. Our best hope is to be healthy for the playoff run.

That's just where we are, and I don't see anything that we can do to lessen our injury risk outside of trading Amare.
And trading Amare won't happen, Sarver would be in fear of his life literally.

There is no amount of spin that you can put on trading Amare now. It is a lose/lose situation. You couldn't get fair value in return because of the injury and if Amare recovers he has possibly 10 years of dominace in the NBA. Sarver would forever go down as the biggest fool in Phoenix history.

Besides, I think Sarver personally is Amare's biggest fanboi and the thought hasn't crossed his mind.

You are correct about Thomas, regardless of his past history as a horse, he is now an old man in NBA terms, he is going to be much more opt to break down and we have seen he recovers much slower than players in their 20's. I personally think he should be the first to go, his pluses defense and rebounding are pointless if the guy can't get on the court and stay there.

Nash I am least worried about, my biggest thing for him is he needs to have a back up so he only plays say 28-32 minuets in the regular season. Hopefully the Suns can dominate the division next season and rest Nash significantly the last month. My opionin PT guard is more important than a back up center who will never get playing time.

I also agree Raja is fine, muscle strains even severe ones are only temporary I am sure he has been 100% for some time now.

To me this whole season rests on Amare.
 

George O'Brien

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He's back...... :raccoon:

Missed you Eric.

I have to disagree with you, but glad to have you back.

1. I agree that Marion's salary is a problem, I just don't see how they can do anything about it. The imagined Shard Lewis deal is a classic example. He costs four million a year less than Marion and people are shocked to find he isn't as good as Marion. Salary dumps are salary dumps. Trading Marion for a "better All Star" is good in theory, but never even gets to real rumor category.

2. If the Suns primary goal had been to avoid the luxury tax, they'd have drafted Shannon Brown and prepared to let Barbosa leave next summer through free agency. They may end up having to do that anyway if some of the insane dollar demands we are hearing are real. None the less, even a reasonable contract for Barbosa is likely to be entirely in the luxury tax field.

3. A full MLE for TT as the eigth man in the rotation is not terribly prudent.

4. Jones is not a great player, but it is rare for teams to have eight guys who are star material. Compared to TT, Jones is a better defender and more active on the boards. He's not as big and not the three point shooter TT is. If TT continued to play as well as he did in the playoffs, he's more than worth the money. Still, the same could have been said about Jimmy Jackson. :bang:
 

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sly fly said:
Do you realize how ignorant this post is?

Not as ignorant as yours.

I don't know what the board poicy is but theses kinds of posts are offensive to me. If you dissagree with someone take the time to tell us why or just ignore it.
 

Mainstreet

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devilalum said:
Not as ignorant as yours.

I don't know what the board poicy is but theses kinds of posts are offensive to me. If you dissagree with someone take the time to tell us why or just ignore it.


I'll back you up. I don't like cheap shots. Differences should be aired with discussion not name calling.
 

newfan101

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The whole irony is that Sarver may have ended up losing money by not resigning Thomas. By going another year with a short bench, it's going to drive up the minutes (and production) of Diaw and Barbosa, which will also drive up their cost. I can't say their price will go up 21 million, but with only 2 guys on the bench right now who can play, instead of 3, I guarantee you they will put up the kind of numbers that will have Sarver fuming with their agents next summer.
 

Mainstreet

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newfan101 said:
The whole irony is that Sarver may have ended up losing money by not resigning Thomas. By going another year with a short bench, it's going to drive up the minutes (and production) of Diaw and Barbosa, which will also drive up their cost. I can't say their price will go up 21 million, but with only 2 guys on the bench right now who can play, instead of 3, I guarantee you they will put up the kind of numbers that will have Sarver fuming with their agents next summer.

The Suns need to extend the contracts of these two players this summer before they become RFA's.
 

tobiazz

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WildBB said:
Yea - exactly - it's whats wrong with pro sports today. Were supposed to feel sorry for these guys , playing a GAME they love to play and opting for the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ rather than the community and the team. Totally buisness for these athletes now and believe it or not it affects the overall product and viability of the sport. Yes money rules in Pro Sports and fans suffer for it - in the teams following their favorite players and teams yr. to yr. and in their wallets paying for overinflated seats because of the overinflated market value of the athletes compared to normal workers salaries. The quality of the game experience for the price isn't worth it anymore.

The players need to get that. They're not taking from the owners pockets - they're taking fromn the fans - cause the owners pass the cost onto us.

It is business for them; it's their job. How can you expect a guy to pass on $12 million. I bet you wouldn't. I love to program but that doesn't mean I would take $50k instead of $100k to stay at a job I like a little more.

It's all supply and demand. Players try to make the optimal amount of money and owners try to charge fans the optimal amount as well. They are each trying to maximize their profits. If the cost of a basketball team suddenly was cut in half, Sarver would not cut ticket prices in half.

Sure the seats are too expensive for me to consider getting them, but many people do spend the money, so the tickets are not "overinflated," they are just market value. It's a pricy market, unfortunately.
 

KingLouieLouie

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Mainstreet said:
The Suns need to extend the contracts of these two players this summer before they become RFA's.

However... there's one major question....... That is..... What if last season's performance of Diaw was just a fluke.. an aberration? No way in extending a player to a lucrative contract based on a mere small sample-size.... That's a mjaor risk and faulty thinking....

The best case scenario would be to wait to see how Diaw performs throughout the 1st half of the season and see if he is indeed 'legit... then that's the time to begin negotiating a contract to re-sign.... No way must the Suns be too impulsive in that regard.....
 

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devilalum said:
Not as ignorant as yours.

I don't know what the board poicy is but theses kinds of posts are offensive to me. If you dissagree with someone take the time to tell us why or just ignore it.

Um, people have been doing that, but, as this post proves, people ignore it and only identify those posts that are "offensive".
 

George O'Brien

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KLL said:
However... there's one major question....... That is..... What if last season's performance of Diaw was just a fluke.. an aberration? No way in extending a player to a lucrative contract based on a mere small sample-size.... That's a mjaor risk and faulty thinking....

The best case scenario would be to wait to see how Diaw performs throughout the 1st half of the season and see if he is indeed 'legit... then that's the time to begin negotiating a contract to re-sign.... No way must the Suns be too impulsive in that regard.....

Kinda wish the rules were set up that way. They're not. The time to extend ends in October, after which the team cannot negoiate untill the player becomes a restricted free agent.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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KLL said:
However... there's one major question....... That is..... What if last season's performance of Diaw was just a fluke.. an aberration? No way in extending a player to a lucrative contract based on a mere small sample-size.... That's a mjaor risk and faulty thinking....

The best case scenario would be to wait to see how Diaw performs throughout the 1st half of the season and see if he is indeed 'legit... then that's the time to begin negotiating a contract to re-sign.... No way must the Suns be too impulsive in that regard.....

that's sounds like a really good idea, except for one thing... YOU CAN'T NEGOTIATE A CONTRACT EXTENSION IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SEASON.

Don't make the same mistake we made with JJ. Get the deal done this summer.

(cheese)
 

KingLouieLouie

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George O'Brien said:
Kinda wish the rules were set up that way. They're not. The time to extend ends in October, after which the team cannot negoiate untill the player becomes a restricted free agent.
Thanks for clarifying..... In that case though... I still would wait until next off-season to negotiate Diaw's contract..... Regardless.. the Suns more than likely will still have great financial flexibility to their advantage and will know by then if Diaw is worth that type of a max contract...... Plus... if Diaw does prove himself further in '06-'07.. the Suns will be willing to match any offer that is tossed at him..especially since D'Antoni has been extremely enamored with him since Day 1.......

cheesebeef said:
that's sounds like a really good idea, except for one thing... YOU CAN'T NEGOTIATE A CONTRACT EXTENSION IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SEASON.

Don't make the same mistake we made with JJ. Get the deal done this summer.

(cheese)

However... the Suns knew what they were getting with JJ throughout the time he was a member of the Suns, however, the Suns are in a difficult quandary with Diaw since he excelled only for one season... True.. it's the first opportunity he had to play on a regular basis and he far exceeded the Suns expectations, but he must again sustain that level for next season and prove his worth further or else.. if the Suns do extend him now to the max and he never lives-up to that potential again.. it would be one of the BIGGEST waste of all-time....
 
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sly fly

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devilalum said:
Not as ignorant as yours.

I don't know what the board poicy is but theses kinds of posts are offensive to me. If you dissagree with someone take the time to tell us why or just ignore it.

Quit your crying.

The post was comical, and was so off-base. The only word that came to my mind was "ignorant". I didn't call the person "ignorant".

Why should I take the time to disprove anything in that post? I mean, c'mon...
 
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Mainstreet said:
The Suns need to extend the contracts of these two players this summer before they become RFA's.


I certainly understand this point, especially after the JJ fiasco. I was very critical of management for not extending JJ when they had the chance. However, it’s safe to say that if Amare returns healthy, the #'s of everyone on this team will go down. Add in a Tim Thomas, and it's not out of the question that Diaw, while still showing tremendous value, could average less that 10 points a game.

I am as critical of Sarver as anyone, but I could at least understand it if he passed on extending Diaw and Barbs to see how they play with Amare. If he added Thomas, it would make it even more understandable.
 

WildBB

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tobiazz said:
It is business for them; it's their job. How can you expect a guy to pass on $12 million. I bet you wouldn't. I love to program but that doesn't mean I would take $50k instead of $100k to stay at a job I like a little more.

It's all supply and demand. Players try to make the optimal amount of money and owners try to charge fans the optimal amount as well. They are each trying to maximize their profits. If the cost of a basketball team suddenly was cut in half, Sarver would not cut ticket prices in half.

Sure the seats are too expensive for me to consider getting them, but many people do spend the money, so the tickets are not "overinflated," they are just market value. It's a pricy market, unfortunately.

Yea way too pricy for what you get. That's the problem. And you know what they don't care if they sell out anymore really as long as they are as you say maximizing their profit. Sucks for an ordinary family guy that the product has slipped so much for the fans who helped make the sport successful in the first place - the common fan.

And a BIG NO , I don't feel ANY empathy for TThomas. He unfortunately made the wrong decision in my book.
 

sly fly

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Questions for the guys who think Marion doesn't deserve his contract as it relates to cap freedom..

- Did Marion's play last year justify the $$$ he tied up in cap space?

- Do you think PHX wins the Pacific Division w/o Shawn Marion?

- Would PHX have made it out of the 1st round w/o Shawn Marion?

My take:

- Yes.
- No.
- No.

So, in essence... this guy was an integral part of the overall picture. Which means his contract is what it is. Deal with it. Or, just be careful what you wish for.
 

George O'Brien

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KLL said:
However... the Suns knew what they were getting with JJ throughout the time he was a member of the Suns, however, the Suns are in a difficult quandary with Diaw since he excelled only for one season... True.. it's the first opportunity he had to play on a regular basis and he far exceeded the Suns expectations, but he must again sustain that level for next season and prove his worth further or else.. if the Suns do extend him now to the max and he never lives-up to that potential again.. it would be one of the BIGGEST waste of all-time....

Boris is not getting a max deal (there is no point in doing it now since they can match next year). However, the reason Boris is getting so much attention is that people now understand why he did not show much with the Hawks.

The Hawks are an awful team with terrible coaching. They are a collection of one on one players with absolutely no concept of team play. Boris is a guy who grew up in Europe and once made league MVP while averaing less than 10 ppg. Boris needs to play on a team that plays like a team.

Last summer, Boris ranked just under Dirk as MVP in the Eurobasket Tournament. In some games he played PG instead of Tony Parker because the team ran better with him in charge. As the series went on, Boris played center for France and dominated guys like AK and Okur.

Why didn't he play like that with Atlanta? Because his coach with the Hawks wanted him to play like the rest of the team's one on one guys. Even when tried at PG, it didn't work because his teammates played like statues, doing nothing until they got the ball.

There is little doubt that Boris is a perfect fit for the Suns. There aren't any other teams that are geared to make the most of his talents. Still, the bidding could get totally out of control if they wait until next year.
 

Mainstreet

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sly fly said:
Questions for the guys who think Marion doesn't deserve his contract as it relates to cap freedom..

- Did Marion's play last year justify the $$$ he tied up in cap space?

- Do you think PHX wins the Pacific Division w/o Shawn Marion?

- Would PHX have made it out of the 1st round w/o Shawn Marion?

My take:

- Yes.
- No.
- No.

So, in essence... this guy was an integral part of the overall picture. Which means his contract is what it is. Deal with it. Or, just be careful what you wish for.


Agreed. Shawn Marion has proven he is worth the money for I believe 7 years. The Suns unwillingness to pay the luxury tax is the culprit.

I'm not blaming anyone. It's just the way it is. However, I believe Phoenix is the 5th largest city in the United States... so the market must be there.

I would just like the Suns ownership be willing to exceed the luxury tax for at least one year (this coming season) to perhaps make their best run at a Championship. Steve Nash is not getting any younger.

Then after next season they can move a large contract if they must.
 

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Mainstreet said:
I would just like the Suns ownership be willing to exceed the luxury tax for at least one year (this coming season) to perhaps make their best run at a Championship. Steve Nash is not getting any younger.

Then after next season they can move a large contract if they must.

The problem is that while as a fan, you don't care about the luxury tax, but if it was your money you definitely would think twice about it.
 

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Mainstreet said:
I'm not blaming anyone. It's just the way it is. However, I believe Phoenix is the 5th largest city in the United States... so the market must be there.

True.... we're the 5th largest city in the United States, however, several are transplants who unfortunately still follow/root for the teams they grew-up enjoying or several didnt switch their allegiances once the Cardinals/Coyotes relocated here or when the Dbacks franchise began play here in '98....... Eventually..that will all change once those teams establish more of a legacy/tradition.....
 

Mainstreet

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Chaplin said:
The problem is that while as a fan, you don't care about the luxury tax, but if it was your money you definitely would think twice about it.

I believe the Suns made 40 million last year. I'm only asking the Suns management to forget about the luxury tax for one season. Then they can move a large contract.

However, if the Suns win a Championship next season, they will more than make it up it product sales.

Just one year Chaplin, is all I'm asking.
 
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