Brawl in NY-Den game, 10 Ejected

hafey

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I'm not talking about the brawling. I'm talking about Isiah Thomas encouraging an unecessary flagrant foul. Mary Collins should've made a play on the ball or not made a play. Saving yourself from a dunk is not an excuse to take someone down by the neck, and thinking it is is bad.

We will have to agree to disagree I suppose.
 

elindholm

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Isiah's getting fired. The only mystery left is the date it will happen.

This is the exclamation point on a tenure in NY that has been an embarrassment for him and the entire city.

And, by extension, the league. If for no other reason than their location in New York, the Knicks are one of the NBA's marquee franchises. The league cannot afford for them to be a laughingstock much longer.

Chaplin, Thomas was the leader of a team of thugs and he is still a thug today. He started the whole thing by telling Anthony and Camby that they shouldn't be on the floor. That was an affront to the Nuggets and specifically to George Karl, with whom Thomas has had issues before. He has a long history of sticking his nose where it doesn't belong and telling other people how to do their jobs, which is laughable given how blindingly incompetent he is at his own.

It simply isn't possible to argue that Isiah Thomas is good for the NBA in any way. Almost everything he does is a disaster. It's time to pull the plug.
 

Chaplin

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Chaplin, Thomas was the leader of a team of thugs and he is still a thug today. He started the whole thing by telling Anthony and Camby that they shouldn't be on the floor. That was an affront to the Nuggets and specifically to George Karl, with whom Thomas has had issues before. He has a long history of sticking his nose where it doesn't belong and telling other people how to do their jobs, which is laughable given how blindingly incompetent he is at his own.

He talked to Carmelo and Camby AFTER the brawl occured. He didn't "start" anything.

It simply isn't possible to argue that Isiah Thomas is good for the NBA in any way. Almost everything he does is a disaster. It's time to pull the plug.

Funny, Eric, but I not once said anything about Thomas being good for the NBA. I only said that it was laughable that Thomas would encourage his players to get into a brawl.
 
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Chaplin

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I'm not talking about the brawling. I'm talking about Isiah Thomas encouraging an unecessary flagrant foul. Mary Collins should've made a play on the ball or not made a play. Saving yourself from a dunk is not an excuse to take someone down by the neck, and thinking it is is bad.

We will have to agree to disagree I suppose.

Are you ignoring the why of the foul? Yes, it was a flagrant, and those are never good. But he did it because he didn't want Smith to have a 2nd showboat dunk on their home floor. He didn't do it solely because Isaiah Thomas told him he had to. Every team and most players do it at some point during an unfortunate blowout in a season.

It's just easier to pin this one on Thomas because of his issues as a coach. And while I do agree with you guys that Thomas is a laughing stock and has done nothing good for the league since he retired as a player, that doesn't mean that he goes out of his way to promote intending to injure other players. That's just asinine.
 

az1965

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Thats not happening. Its probably a 10 15 or 20 game suspension.
I won't be surprised for much harsher punishment, even rest of the season for Melo. That was stupid of him. Things were settling when he threw that punch.

The NBA is still recovering from the Detroit incident. Expect very harsh punishments for this crap.
 

The Sports Guy

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The second after Melo threw a punch he did the moon walk all the way to half court.

Stay out of it or stay in the fight and don't back out like Kwame Brown would.
 

carrrnuttt

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Comment on this Chaplin:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_y...vLYF?slug=dw-knicks121606&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Bad apples

By Dan Wetzel, Yahoo! Sports
December 16, 2006


Beyond the sucker punches and sorry stunts at Madison Square Garden on Saturday came the most pathetic part of all for the NBA – Isiah Thomas whining about run-up scores and poor sportsmanship, like the once proud New York Knicks are nothing but a lowly college mid-major in need of mercy.

Just when you thought Zeke couldn't embarrass this franchise any worse, just when you thought he couldn't let down this city any more, just when you thought building and coaching a dog team wasn't enough, there is this: a whiny coach making excuses for dirty fouls and poser players.

Oh, there were all sorts of people at fault when the Knicks and Denver Nuggets decided Saturday night was all right for fighting, and David Stern will certainly hammer them the way he did Detroit and Indiana for their brawl in Auburn Hills. Carmelo Anthony is going to sit his 31.5-point scoring average for a long time.

Isiah Thomas isn't the only one in the wrong here. But his postgame press conference performance was the most disappointing, if telling, of them all. He blamed Denver's perceived running up of the score, complete with a highlight reel dunk, as simply too much for his humble guys to handle.

"Up 19 with a minute and a half to go, (Carmelo Anthony) and (Marcus) Camby really shouldn't be in the game," Thomas said. "We had surrendered. (Those) guys shouldn't even be in the game at that point."

Thomas is correct about this much. The Nuggets were brutalizing the Knicks on their home court, 119-100 with 1:15 remaining, making a mockery of Thomas' salary rich club. And yes, stars Anthony and Camby were still in the game, maybe even because Denver coach George Karl wanted to hit up Thomas for firing Larry Brown, Karl's old University of North Carolina buddy.

Whether or not Thomas told Mardy Collins to exact some revenge by tackling a breaking J.R. Smith around the neck is something Stern will decide. But Thomas may not have had to say anything. The boorish play might simply be Collins responding to his coach's unspoken outrage at the injustice of once again having his team get its ass kicked.

It's certainly telling that Collins did nearly the same thing – a late flagrant foul – in Indiana's beat down of the Knicks on Friday. So that's back-to-back flagrant fouls in back-to-back blowout losses for New York.

But those are Isiah's Knicks. This is on him. If he had an ounce of self-respect, he'd realize there is only one person to blame for this disaster and it isn't George Karl for his substitution pattern.

Instead, he went with some sad, victim routine.

"They were having their way with us," Thomas said. "I think J.R. Smith had just made one dunk when he reversed and spun in the air. And I think Mardy didn't want our home crowd to see that again. So he fouled him."

Said Nate Robinson: "It's like a slap in the face, saying we're going to embarrass you like that."

Boy, thank goodness the NBA has a coach and a player willing to stand up for sportsmanship like these two.

We know a respectful sort such as Robinson would never, ever show up an opponent by, say, bounce-passing a ball off the backboard to himself so he could dunk it. And we know if, say, such a thing happened on his watch, say Nov. 29 in Cleveland, Thomas would never, ever leave Robinson in the game like it was completely acceptable.

Of course not. Not these virtuous souls.

"If we're up 20 points, we're not going to play Stephon (Marbury) and Eddy (Curry)," Robinson said.

Of course not, because if the Knicks were up 20, Robinson would just honor his fallen opponent. Like when he botched that ESPY-campaign self-alley-oop and claimed humbly, "I won't be trying it again unless we're up by 20."

The good news is the Knicks aren't getting up 20 on anyone anytime soon.

If Robinson really wants this to end, if he wants the MSG boos silenced, then he should get his teammates to compete hard the first 46 minutes, not just foul hard in the final two.

If Thomas wants to stop people from running up the score on him, then he should have built a better club. He shouldn't have wasted all that money on illogical signings, outrageous trades and heartless characters.

No, Thomas and his guys weren't the only ones in the wrong Saturday. The Nuggets have their own issues. But when it was over, at least they weren't crying, at least they weren't punking.

It's all gone in New York now – the pride, the respect, the dignity. This isn't just a bad team; this is a bad act. A once proud franchise and fan base brought to its knees as its pathetic coach makes excuses and whines for mercy.

There's one thing wrong about the article. There was one Nugget 'punking', and we all know who it was.

I do believe that even if it wasn't directly ordered by Isiah, it's the mentality he's allowed on the Knicks that led to this.
 

Folster

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Thats not happening. Its probably a 10 15 or 20 game suspension.

No way he is suspended for that many. 10 is the absolute max. I'd be surprised if it's over 5. Historically, a punch (not involving going into the stands) usually garners a few games.
 

thegrahamcrackr

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Come on. :rolleyes:

I know people love to hate Isaiah, but not even he is that stupid.

From Sheridan
NEW YORK -- About a minute or two before the Knicks-Nuggets brawl erupted Saturday night in Madison Square Garden, New York coach Isiah Thomas mentioned to Denver star Carmelo Anthony that it wouldn't be a good idea to go anywhere near the paint, according to a member of the Denver Nuggets organization.
The message was unmistakable: A hard foul was coming. And when it came, the NBA had its first full-scale fight of the 2006-07 season.
 

panfolk

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Why? Raja would have done the same thing if not harder.

Raja's clotheslining Kobe was retaliation for Kobe's elbowing him in the head repeatedly... not a matter of embarassment. Both are wrong but in my opinion Collins actions (like Luke Waltons' clothesline last year) aren't even understandable.
 

Chaplin

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Its all laughable....your statement...Isiah laughing at the press conferance

:biglaugh:

Again, to anyone not reading, I DON"T THINK ISAIAH IS A GOOD COACH. You guys are so easy to make the mistake that I'm saying otherwise.

The video from ESPN that I saw said that Isaiah said it after the brawl, I might be mistaken, but Isaiah admitted he at least said it in the press conference. Now everyone is saying that he threatened Carmelo with a hard foul? And coming from the Nuggets, THAT'S reliable information. Come on.

Again, Isaiah is a horrible coach and certainly not good for the Knicks, but stop being so damned gullible.

Hell, if Gambo had written the above article, you'd all be ridiculing it--except, of course, if it happens to agree with your point-of-view, then sportswriters are definitely credible, right?

EDIT: Even though there are no strong reports, and probably never will be, I will concede that it is possible that Isaiah warned Carmelo that there might be a hard foul coming because the starters were still in the game. But the reasons for that hard foul (were it to occur) are a little different than the hard flagrant foul that was given (which was to prevent a showboating dunk).
 
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tobiazz

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I think everything that happened looked a lot worse than it really was. I think the original flagrant may have been more of a botched bear hug, than an attempt to harm. The Carmelo assault was merely slap (btw, what a wuss for prancing away afterwards).

I say give Carmelo 5-10 games, whoever tackled Nate Robb up to 5, and some of the other guys 1-2 games. These things happen and you can't punish them that severely for their instinctive behavior. The incident was very unfortunate, but I think it's unfair, for example, to expect Jefferies to sit down and not pursue Carmelo after an affront to his manhood. It would be comendable if he just went to the bench, but it would not be "natural." There's something to be said for standing up for yourself and your friends (teammates). That's why I feel instigation should be punished far more heavily than retribution. Someone instigating a conflict should expect repercussions from the people they are violating, not just a punishment from above.

Hopefully, that was clear. It's 3am and I'm dead tired.
 

Southpaw

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The people that think basketball is played by thugs think that because they see black people. There is much more thuggery in a white dominated sport called hockey.

Was the race card really necessary to this thread? BTW, no one watches hockey.
 

Nate

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I dont get how some of you guys really judge Carmelos actions more harshly than Collins. As the Dan Wetzel article stated, that was the second game in a row in which Collins committed a very hard and totally unnecessary foul, thereby endangering Smith's health.

The only thing Carmelo did was to stand up for his teammate. Whether he was acting cowardly or not afterwards, I dont really care. Mardy Collins surely deserved that hit. Its a pity that Carmelo didnt hit him harder.

I would hope that the NBA cleans up that habit of dirty fouling at the end of some blowouts.These fouls are far more dangerous to a players health and career than almost all the punches that are sometimes thrown as a reaction afterwards. Thats why in my opinion Collins should sit longer than Carmelo, especially as a repeated offender in consecutive games. Just my two cents...
 

Tank

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I dont get how some of you guys really judge Carmelos actions more harshly than Collins. As the Dan Wetzel article stated, that was the second game in a row in which Collins committed a very hard and totally unnecessary foul, thereby endangering Smith's health.

The only thing Carmelo did was to stand up for his teammate. Whether he was acting cowardly or not afterwards, I dont really care. Mardy Collins surely deserved that hit. Its a pity that Carmelo didnt hit him harder.

I would hope that the NBA cleans up that habit of dirty fouling at the end of some blowouts.These fouls are far more dangerous to a players health and career than almost all the punches that are sometimes thrown as a reaction afterwards. Thats why in my opinion Collins should sit longer than Carmelo, especially as a repeated offender in consecutive games. Just my two cents...

Wow, I couldn't disagree with this more. A closed fist punch is worse than any flagrant foul. I've accidentally fouled people harder than Collins did in a pickup game, but I don't expect to have a fist flying at me any time.

If this was acceptable, you would see punches thrown after any flagrant which is precisely why it's not...
 

carrrnuttt

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Wow, I couldn't disagree with this more. A closed fist punch is worse than any flagrant foul. I've accidentally fouled people harder than Collins did in a pickup game, but I don't expect to have a fist flying at me any time.

If this was acceptable, you would see punches thrown after any flagrant which is precisely why it's not...

Take a look at your statement again. Now, review the video of the incident.
 

Tank

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The post above was talking about fouls that endangered someone's health. I was just saying that I don't think that foul had any chance of doing so... Not that I'm agreeing with the foul, but a closed fist punch is worse than the original foul.
 

HooverDam

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I haven't seen the fight yet? Is it online anywhere? I looked on Youtube and nothing seems to be there yet.

EDIT: OK I just found it on Google video, what a bunch of thug idiots. Did anyone else notice when Melo was backing up that Nate Robinson got passed everyone trying to hold people back, and a chance to go one on one w/ Melo, but got to half court and realized Melo would crush him, and he turned around and ran back to the Knicks bench.
 
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Nate

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Ok, Tank, which kind of fouls are endangering someones health in your mind?

Smith was going full speed at the basket and was just about to take off when Collins grabbed him from behind, one arm around his neck. The possibility to suffer a neck(for compression of the vertebra of the neck) or a knee injury (being in upward motion but being brought down, thereby having rotation in the knees and tearing or straining a ligaments there / not to forget about hand or wrist injuries) is very high with a foul like that, and the foul was totally out of line. There is a difference between going at the body recklessly or slapping someone hard on the arms to deny him the lay-up/dunk. Even that would constitute, if it was intentional, a flagrant foul.

I agree with you that a closed fist punch would be worse than the original foul if it came out of nowhere. Since the punch came in retaliation, directed at the player who committed the original foul, I dont see it as bad as I would normally do. Collins got what he started. Had Carmelo thrown the punch at anyone else, I would judge differently.
 
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