Brawl in NY-Den game, 10 Ejected

[JCSunsfan]

The whining from the Knicks was not what caused the ejections. It was a bunch of world class players making stupid decisions, culminating to a cheap shot from Carmelo Anthony, one of the most despicable and low class acts from any player.

You can talk sportsmanship all you want; you can diss Isiah Thomas about his decision-making all you want. But the bottom line is, the players were the ones who got themselves in this mess.

The Nuggets players bit the hook, and they're no less guilty than the Knicks players.

They are really fortunate no one was seriously hurt. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it) I am old enough to remember Kermit Washington caving Rudy T's face in. This type of stuff is really dangerous for players and fans.

 

[devilalum]

I think the biggest thing was the players flying into the stands.
The league has had no tolerance for endangering fans. They've got to make a statement about that. Two big athletes flying into a bunch of middle aged people sitting in folding chairs is a formula for disaster.

 

[Nash]

If David Lee had made a proper pass all of this would not have happened.

 

[boisesuns]

I think we are all overblowing this. Look at this angle. Nate Robinson is just looking for a shoulder to cry on.

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[Nash]

I think we are all overblowing this. Look at this angle. Nate Robinson is just looking for a shoulder to cry on.

pretty aggressive 'cryer' that Nate.


was anyone else amazed by how powerful Nate is ? When JR tried to take him down, Nate managed to keep his balance and actually turn the table on JR by bulldozing him. seriously, he is one fiery pitbull.
You must recall he got in a fight with the monster-sized Malik Rose last season.

 

[TucsonDevil]

Nate Robinson suffers from the "Napoleon Complex"... he is always pissed off because of his short stature, and will blow a gasket at the drop of a hat. Funny thing is - in Society, he is taller than the average man.

I would hate to see Isaiah escape blame for this.

 

[Southpaw]

They are really fortunate no one was seriously hurt. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it) I am old enough to remember Kermit Washington caving Rudy T's face in. This type of stuff is really dangerous for players and fans.

Rudy T ran the full length of the court to get hit.

 

[pokerface]

Wow. While Isaiah is certainly not a great coach, but you act like he is the instigator. I think it's pretty apparent that Thomas never told Collins to clothesline JR Smith on that play.

Chaplin you're wrong...Its appearing Thomas gave some kind of orders. Exerpt from the NYTimes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/18/sports/basketball/18knicks.html?_r=1&ref=sports&oref=slogin

There is no audio of Thomas, but in repeated viewing of the video he appears to say: “Hey, don’t go to the basket right now. It wouldn’t be a good idea.” Seconds later, Thomas ***** his head, holds out his right palm and, with a slight smile, adds, “Just letting you know.”

 

[bratwurst]

If that's indeed true and verifiable, Isiah needs to be sent packing without severance pay.

 

[phxrising]

Thomas faces NBA KO
Knicks, too, may step in

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba...p-404881c.html

Isiah Thomas was caught in the act of talking directly to Carmelo Anthony by MSG cameras Saturday night, warning the Denver Nuggets' forward that a hard foul would be administered if Anthony or any of his teammates dared to venture in the paint.

The threat was carried out by Mardy Collins, a brawl ensued and now Thomas could find himself in deep trouble with the NBA and perhaps his own organization.

The league will announce today the suspensions and fines from Saturday's ugly brawl between the Knicks and Nuggets that resulted in 10 players being ejected. Both clubs play home games tonight, against the Jazz and Wizards, respectively.

If the league pursues Thomas' actions leading up to the brawl, he could face swift justice. Among players, Anthony, the NBA's leading scorer, and Nate Robinson are expected to receive the most severe penalties for escalating the fight that could have spiraled out of control had it not been for quick work of NBA security, Madison Square Garden security and ushers, along with the coaching staffs of the respective teams.

Collins, the Knicks rookie, whose flagrant foul on J.R. Smith started the trouble, will also be suspended as will Smith and Jared Jeffries. If it is ruled that players left the bench area - Nene, Jerome James and Quentin Richardson were spotted on the court - they will receive a one-game suspension.

There is no guarantee that Thomas will be on the sidelines for tonight's game. The coach admitted he was upset that Denver kept four of its five starters in the game in the final minutes with the result no longer in doubt. After it was all over, Thomas even hinted that the Nuggets got what they deserved. With the Knicks trailing 117-100 with 2:01 remaining, Thomas replaced Stephon Marbury with Collins during a timeout. Just 46 seconds later, Collins prevented a breakaway layup by grabbing Smith around his neck and throwing him to the floor. With 4:14 remaining Smith, who grew up in Freehold, N.J., had the crowd buzzing following a reverse dunk.

It is not known if during the timeout with 2:01 to play if Thomas instructed his players to give a hard foul. When Collins entered the game he joined starters Channing Frye and Jeffries plus two regulars in the rotation, David Lee and Robinson. Denver returned with starters Anthony, Smith, Marcus Camby and Andre Miller plus Eduardo Najera.

Just 24 hours earlier, Collins had committed a flagrant foul on Indiana's Maceo Baston with 1:44 remaining and the Knicks trailing by 16. The one difference is that Indiana had five reserves in the game. On Saturday, the Knicks were being embarrassed on their home floor and Thomas has a bitter history with George Karl, who happens to be best friends with former Knicks coach Larry Brown.

Karl criticized the Knicks in June for their treatment of Brown. When Thomas ran into Karl during the Vegas Summer League in July, he reprimanded the Denver coach for talking about his club.

And yet, Thomas reportedly spoke to Anthony during the course of the fourth quarter and even approached the former Syracuse star after the fight had ended.

"I just said to him you're up 19 with a minute and a half to go, you and Camby really shouldn't be in the game right now," Thomas said on Saturday, laughing. "We had surrendered. And those guys shouldn't have been in the game at that time. They were sticking it to us pretty good. They were having their way with us pretty good. I think J.R. Smith had just made one dunk where he reverses it and spins in the air. I thought that Mardy didn't want to have our home crowd see that again and he fouled him."

After the rough foul on the drive, Smith immediately got in Collins' face and was shoved by Robinson, who also pushed Anthony and gestured to Smith that he wanted to fight. Smith accepted the challenge and his battle with Robinson spilled into the baseline seats. Jeffries tried to pull Robinson from the scrum and after Anthony sucker punched a backing-off Collins, Jeffries had to be restrained from going after Anthony.

The Knicks have to yet accept any responsibility or apologize for their conduct. On Saturday, when asked if he regretted his actions, Robinson said "no."

Garden chairman James Dolan was in attendance and watched a replay of the melee. He refused to comment and while no one from the Knicks was made available yesterday, Anthony issued an apology, saying, "I take full responsibility for my actions in the matter."

According to a Knicks official, Dolan had reprimanded Jeff Van Gundy six years earlier when Camby went after San Antonio's Danny Ferry during a fight on Martin Luther King Day. That skirmish was tame compared to what transpired on Saturday and it is unclear if Dolan will hold Thomas responsible.

Thomas has had his share of run-ins during his three years with the club. He had to be restrained from going after a heckler who criticized his decision to trade Charlie Ward. Thomas threatened to fight former Knick Shandon Anderson and had a heated exchange with Dikembe Mutombo after the center was insulted by Thomas' suggestion that he take a month-long vacation during the final month of the season.

Within the past two months, Thomas traded insults with the Nets coaching staff during a preseason game and also made threats to the Spurs' Bruce Bowen because he felt that forward had intentionally injured Steve Francis. The next time the teams met, Thomas began screaming at Bowen because he felt the Spur was trying to hurt Jamal Crawford.

Tim Duncan criticized Thomas' actions and San Antonio coach Gregg Popovich reacted by telling the Knicks coach something that he claims to know but consistently violates:

"Don't talk to my player."

 

[Chaplin]

Chaplin you're wrong...Its appearing Thomas gave some kind of orders. Exerpt from the NYTimes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/18/sports/basketball/18knicks.html?_r=1&ref=sports&oref=slogin

There's a difference between telling a player (which he shouldn't have done in the first place) that there will be a foul and trying to prevent a showboat dunk.

It comes down to this: It was a hard foul, one of which shouldn't have been so hard--but Collins did raise his hand almost immediately after hitting Smith. Smith took exception, but that's where it should have ended--he was not injured, and there was clearly a flagrant foul.

Now, everyone is making a huge deal because Nate Robinson came over and his actions are what made everything escalate. Whether you can blame him for being too rough or praise him for coming to the defense of his teammate, that's your choice.

Intentional fouling is a fact of the game. Whether that's a good fact is debatable. Bottom line is that Thomas should never have spoken to any Nugget player at all. Every team gives intentional fouls, almost in every game. IF there wasn't a steal and the Nuggets came back down and still had Camby and Carmelo in (and it appears that Karl was finally emptying his bench at the time of the brawl), then there was going to be a foul. We'll never know how hard of a foul that would have been. Thomas messed up only when he spoke to an opposing player--regardless of what he said.

There is nothing the league can really do to Thomas except give him a stern talking to. The evidence the New York Times has dredged up isn't evidence at all.

I know nobody agrees with me, but that's cool. I don't like Isaiah Thomas as a coach or as a person, but there are all sorts of circumstances surrounding the brawl that people are really loving to ignore.

 

[hafey]

Contrary to popular belief, there is no shame in admitting you're wrong.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

There's a difference between telling a player (which he shouldn't have done in the first place) that there will be a foul and trying to prevent a showboat dunk.

It comes down to this: It was a hard foul, one of which shouldn't have been so hard--but Collins did raise his hand almost immediately after hitting Smith. Smith took exception, but that's where it should have ended--he was not injured, and there was clearly a flagrant foul.

Now, everyone is making a huge deal because Nate Robinson came over and his actions are what made everything escalate. Whether you can blame him for being too rough or praise him for coming to the defense of his teammate, that's your choice.

Intentional fouling is a fact of the game. Whether that's a good fact is debatable. Bottom line is that Thomas should never have spoken to any Nugget player at all. Every team gives intentional fouls, almost in every game. IF there wasn't a steal and the Nuggets came back down and still had Camby and Carmelo in (and it appears that Karl was finally emptying his bench at the time of the brawl), then there was going to be a foul. We'll never know how hard of a foul that would have been. Thomas messed up only when he spoke to an opposing player--regardless of what he said.

There is nothing the league can really do to Thomas except give him a stern talking to. The evidence the New York Times has dredged up isn't evidence at all.

I know nobody agrees with me, but that's cool. I don't like Isaiah Thomas as a coach or as a person, but there are all sorts of circumstances surrounding the brawl that people are really loving to ignore.

Actually I agree with you, and mentioned so a couple of pages ago. It was a hard foul, but he did raise his hands. It happens all the time.

The problem is, is that New York always appears to be in these brawls in one way or another.

 

[Esther]

No, I wouldn't. This is a world-class athletic competition. If you lose, take it like a man and move on. Getting riled up over perceived "taunts" or "rubbing it in" is for high school. I didn't see anyone on this board complaining when the Suns kept running up the score at the end of Game 7 against the Lakers last summer.

And under no circumstances would I ever, as a coach, tell another team that they shouldn't have their best players on the floor.

Exactly! Look what happened to our 20 point leads when we take out our best players

btw, the Lakers deserved that game 7. Of course we had to run up the score on that one. Besides Kobe's elbowing Raja, which Raja more than stood up for himself, remeber Kwame Brown shoving Boris to the floor and Lamar Odom whacking Leandro in the face. Boris and Leandro of all players. Now that's true thuggary.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Exactly! Look what happened to our 20 point leads when we take out our best players

btw, the Lakers deserved that game 7. Of course we had to run up the score on that one. Besides Kobe's elbowing Raja, which Raja more than stood up for himself, remeber Kwame Brown shoving Boris to the floor and Lamar Odom whacking Leandro in the face. Boris and Leandro of all players. Now that's true thuggary.

Not even Reggie Miller can score 19 points in 30 seconds.

 

[asudevil83]

this was the second night in a row that a knicks player has flagrantly fouled another player at the end of a game when down by double digits.

i see this a complete frustration because of losing and being the laughing stock of professional sports in the largest market in the US (if not the world).

if isiah did order a flagrant foul, it was done with intent to harm IMO. and luckily nobody was seriously hurt. warning a player NOT to go into the paint, is warning then not to take to the air (dunk, layup, rebound)....exactly where and when a player is most vulnerable to injury from a foul.

 

[Chaplin]

Contrary to popular belief, there is no shame in admitting you're wrong.

Sure, I might have been wrong about Isaiah "ordering" a hard foul. That doesn't defect from my point at all except to put a smile on some ASFN posters' faces when I'm wrong about something.

 

[jbeecham]

It's kind of an unwritten rule in the NBA that if your team is up by a lot of points with only a few minutes left then you put your bench players in the game, especially if the losing team has already done so (aka. surrendering). It sounds like George Karl & Isiah Thomas have problems with each other and Karl wanted to run up the score to insult him.

Also, it looked like Nate Robinson initially tried to separate Colling & JR Smith and then he made the mistake of shoving Smith away from Collins, which escalated the situation.

My take on the flagrant foul is that it wasn't that bad of a foul. JR Smith hadn't left his feet yet and Collins tried to wrap his arms around him from behind. He ended up getting him around the neck, but he released pretty quickly once the whistle blew. That foul wasn't nearly as dangerous as Luke Walton's foul on Tim Thomas in last yrs playoffs and Collins didn't stand over Smith (mocking his manhood) after the play like Kwame Brown did over Diaw. If Kwame Brown had done that to Amare, Marion or Raja then there would've been a brawl in that game.

 

[boisesuns]

There is nothing the league can really do to Thomas except give him a stern talking to. The evidence the New York Times has dredged up isn't evidence at all.

Sportcenter had video this morning of Thomas mouthing "Stay out of the paint" to Melo a few plays before the fight.

 

[Chaplin]

It's kind of an unwritten rule in the NBA that if your team is up by a lot of points with only a few minutes left then you put your bench players in the game, especially if the losing team has already done so (aka. surrendering). It sounds like George Karl & Isiah Thomas have problems with each other and Karl wanted to run up the score to insult him.

Also, it looked like Nate Robinson initially tried to separate Colling & JR Smith and then he made the mistake of shoving Smith away from Collins, which escalated the situation.

My take on the flagrant foul is that it wasn't that bad of a foul. JR Smith hadn't left his feet yet and Collins tried to wrap his arms around him from behind. He ended up getting him around the neck, but he released pretty quickly once the whistle blew. That foul wasn't nearly as dangerous as Luke Walton's foul on Tim Thomas in last yrs playoffs and Collins didn't stand over Smith (mocking his manhood) after the play like Kwame Brown did over Diaw. If Kwame Brown had done that to Amare, Marion or Raja then there would've been a brawl in that game.

I think you hit this right on, Jim. The brawl wasn't because of the flagrant foul, the brawl was because "protecting teammates" turned into full-fledged fighting. NOBODY ordered a fight.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

It's kind of an unwritten rule in the NBA that if your team is up by a lot of points with only a few minutes left then you put your bench players in the game, especially if the losing team has already done so (aka. surrendering). It sounds like George Karl & Isiah Thomas have problems with each other and Karl wanted to run up the score to insult him.

Also, it looked like Nate Robinson initially tried to separate Colling & JR Smith and then he made the mistake of shoving Smith away from Collins, which escalated the situation.

My take on the flagrant foul is that it wasn't that bad of a foul. JR Smith hadn't left his feet yet and Collins tried to wrap his arms around him from behind. He ended up getting him around the neck, but he released pretty quickly once the whistle blew. That foul wasn't nearly as dangerous as Luke Walton's foul on Tim Thomas in last yrs playoffs and Collins didn't stand over Smith (mocking his manhood) after the play like Kwame Brown did over Diaw. If Kwame Brown had done that to Amare, Marion or Raja then there would've been a brawl in that game.

I think you hit this right on, Jim. The brawl wasn't because of the flagrant foul, the brawl was because "protecting teammates" turned into full-fledged fighting. NOBODY ordered a fight.

Agree 100%.

 

[boisesuns]

Suspensions just in:

Anthony 15 Games

Jr Smith/Robinson 10

Collins 6

Jefferies 4

 

[82CardsGrad]

It's kind of an unwritten rule in the NBA that if your team is up by a lot of points with only a few minutes left then you put your bench players in the game, especially if the losing team has already done so (aka. surrendering). It sounds like George Karl & Isiah Thomas have problems with each other and Karl wanted to run up the score to insult him.

Also, it looked like Nate Robinson initially tried to separate Colling & JR Smith and then he made the mistake of shoving Smith away from Collins, which escalated the situation.

My take on the flagrant foul is that it wasn't that bad of a foul. JR Smith hadn't left his feet yet and Collins tried to wrap his arms around him from behind. He ended up getting him around the neck, but he released pretty quickly once the whistle blew. That foul wasn't nearly as dangerous as Luke Walton's foul on Tim Thomas in last yrs playoffs and Collins didn't stand over Smith (mocking his manhood) after the play like Kwame Brown did over Diaw. If Kwame Brown had done that to Amare, Marion or Raja then there would've been a brawl in that game.

Denver and Karl brought this incident upon themselves. There are many "experts" who believe Karl (who is very close with Larry Brown), was trying to make a statement by keeping his starters in the game and running up the score....
Isiah may have actually told Mello to stay out of the paint. ANd if he did, good for him as I'm sure he knew things were deteriorating and didn't want to see a start like Mello get hurt...
If any of you have ever played a sport, you might know that there are many unwritten, but well understood "rules". What Karl did was violate one of the biggest of these "rules". It won't happen, but when the penalties get dished out, Karl should be fined as much as anyone. It was a bush-move on his part and he should be held accountable...

 

[elindholm]

Isiah may have actually told Mello to stay out of the paint. ANd if he did, good for him as I'm sure he knew things were deteriorating and didn't want to see a start like Mello get hurt...

You have to be kidding me. If Thomas suspected that trouble was brewing and didn't support it, he needed to get his hotheads off the floor. There is absolutely no chance that he was honestly looking out for Anthony.

 

[Mulli]

If any of you have ever played a sport, you might know that there are many unwritten, but well understood "rules". What Karl did was violate one of the biggest of these "rules". It won't happen, but when the penalties get dished out, Karl should be fined as much as anyone. It was a bush-move on his part and he should be held accountable...

Thanks Curt Schilling.