arthurracoon
The Cardinal Smiles
the vid is everywhere now
Brawl in NY-Den game, 10 Ejected
- Thread starter jbeecham
- Start date
Then make fighting LEGAL. You wouldn't see as many hard fouls, that I can guarantee.
You think some of these guys would fight if they knew no one would stop it?
Stern is going to come down a lot harder than that. While I don't see anyone getting suspended for the season, I think we are looking at suspensions in the 20+ game range. He already is trying to be tough on the players being demonstrative after foul calls, so he is going to come down on this big time.
boisesuns
Standing Tall And Traded
But in Hockey hitting is part of the game. Many of us say thugs based on how the players react to a siuation. Camby was trying to break things up. Carmelo was trying to start things.
bratwurst
on double secret probation
Hockey is a contact sport. Next time the NBA uniform is changed, maybe they'll add helmets and shoulder pads and then your argument might hold some weight.
There is a reason a lot of people don't watch the NBA anymore, and this latest episode is emblematic of SOME of the issues. The league notices it, thats why the dress code change a while back for guys on the bench. There's probably a great product on the court at 90% of the games each night. But with episodes like this, there's a lot of people who aren't going to separate the wheat from the chaff.
There is a reason a lot of people don't watch the NBA anymore, and this latest episode is emblematic of SOME of the issues. The league notices it, thats why the dress code change a while back for guys on the bench. There's probably a great product on the court at 90% of the games each night. But with episodes like this, there's a lot of people who aren't going to separate the wheat from the chaff.
Divide Et Impera
Registered User
IMO, the NBA needs to up the penalties for this type of behavior. Whatever suspension Artest received is what Melo should get. That would send a major message and it would sit all their asses down. The league has the opportunity to lay the smack down. Nate Robinson, the waterbug who caused this thing to explode, should be out for at least 25 games. That little guy was running around with his little bird chest all puffed out and trying to flex on people. The league really does need to be extremely harsh on this incident....
82CardsGrad
7 x 70
The penalties should be a stiff as the NBA can levy... period... BUT, the problem here is much more systemic and much bigger than any penalty can fix...
The NBA (the NFL as well) is now officially over-run by thugs... Kids who havenot the first clue about honor, dignity and respect for themselves, their peers, their coaches, the fans and the leagues in which they play.
Robinson may have been one of the first to ignite the brawl last night, but when you have an opponent who has beaten your brains in all night, and now is up 19 points with 1:30 left, and they're doing 360 degree slams on your home court - sorry, that's just asking for a beating...
It's a huge problem in BOTH the NBA and NFL... And it sucks...
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I have seen the video a dozen times. It was definitely a hard foul. He grabbed him and tried to prevent him from scoring an easy layup. He also tried to let him go and put his hands up as quickly as possible.
That said, it was still a flagrant foul, because he did not really go for the ball.
Now Nate Robinson did the right thing at first, tried to hold the Pacer's player back to prevent a huge brawl. After that, Carmelo came and put his hand on him, and he threw it away forcefully.
J.R. Smith's wrestling move will give him 5 games.
Carmelo will be suspended at least 5 games, and it should be 7-10. He threw a sucker punch, and then ran away. Fighting is classless to begin with, but to throw a sucker punch, and then not stand in the fire. I have lost a ton of respect for Carmelo because of that classless move alone.
That said, it was still a flagrant foul, because he did not really go for the ball.
Now Nate Robinson did the right thing at first, tried to hold the Pacer's player back to prevent a huge brawl. After that, Carmelo came and put his hand on him, and he threw it away forcefully.
J.R. Smith's wrestling move will give him 5 games.
Carmelo will be suspended at least 5 games, and it should be 7-10. He threw a sucker punch, and then ran away. Fighting is classless to begin with, but to throw a sucker punch, and then not stand in the fire. I have lost a ton of respect for Carmelo because of that classless move alone.
phxrising
Registered
By Marc Stein
ESPN.com
Archive
You've undoubtedly got questions about Saturday night's fight at Madison Square Garden.
We've got the first batch of answers for what happens next to the New York Knicks and Denver Nuggets after a brawl that resulted in five ejections for each team and, at least for the moment, diverts some attention away from the Nuggets' front-runner status in the Allen Iverson Sweepstakes.
How long will the league's leading scorer be suspended?
A punch -- whether or not it connects -- gets you an automatic one-game suspension.
The severity of Carmelo Anthony's penalty from there, and for all the main players in this fracas, is a case-by-case call by NBA commissioner David Stern and VP Stu Jackson. Whether punches land, where they land and who's responsible for escalation all factor in, as does leaving the bench to join in.
The footage you've seen puts at least five players in unquestioned trouble.
1. New York's Mardy Collins took J.R. Smith down with the initial hard, two-handed foul that can't be pardoned no matter how frustrated the Knicks were with what they perceived as Denver intentionally running up the score.
2. New York's Nate Robinson was the first to escalate the situation by wildly confronting Smith and other Nuggets.
3. Smith went after Robinson and the ensuing tangle spilled into a fan section, not far from where Knicks chairman James Dolan sits.
4. Anthony became the other chief escalator by throwing a right hook at Collins ... a punch that came just when things appeared to be settling down.
5. New York's Jared Jeffries went so hard chasing after 'Melo in response to the punch that Jeffries fell down and still had to be restrained when he got up.
The best early estimates: A minimum of five games for Anthony and Robinson ... and possibly longer. Suspensions for Collins, Smith and Jeffries would appear to be in the range of 1-to-3 games.
Don't forget, though, that Stern has been exerting his authority more than ever since the infamous Detroit-Indiana brawl at the Palace of Auburn Hills on Nov. 19, 2004. Keeping that in mind, it wouldn't be a shocker to see all of those estimates fall short.
The Nuggets and Anthony, of course, stand to lose the most from a lengthy suspension. Denver, at 13-9, is clinging to seventh in the Western Conference with roughly one-fourth of the season gone. Given Anthony's importance to the Nuggets -- he's averaging a league-best 31.6 points -- they'd likely feel fortunate to win any game he misses.
For 'Melo himself, this episode is bound to take a chunk out of his newfound darling status ... just days after he donated $1.5 million to fund a youth development center in his hometown of Baltimore. After a variety of setbacks in his first three pro seasons, Anthony was widely regarded as the standout performer on a Team USA squad that finished a disappointing third in last summer's World Championships in Japan and has been hailed in recent weeks for the increasing maturity in his game in terms of shot selection and leadership.
How much harsher will the penalties be because the fight crossed into fan territory?
It's a factor for sure.
Comparisons will inevitably be drawn to the Palace brawl, but that's not a correct comparison. This wasn't even close to that.
Fans at Madison Square Garden, for starters, were innocent bystanders Saturday night. At no point did we see intentional interaction between players and fans.
However ...
Fans sitting along the baseline were endangered by the Robinson-Smith scrap, something the league office won't ignore.
For proof, we refer you to the better comparison, which was less than a year ago.
In Seattle, on Jan. 11, 2006, Orlando's Keyon Dooling and Seattle's Ray Allen wound up in the first row of seats along the sideline after fighting.
Dooling was suspended for five games for throwing a punch at Allen (which did not connect) and for what the league described as "attempting to confront [Allen] in the hallway following his ejection." Allen was suspended for three games.
How soon will the NBA announce the suspensions and fines?
Neither team plays Sunday and both have games Monday night. That gives Stern's staff a day-plus to conduct an investigation before the Knicks or Nuggets play again.
The inquiry will begin with NBA security personnel interviewing numerous players from both teams and include an extensive review of raw footage of the game from a variety of angles -- footage that wasn't seen on the game broadcast or initial TV news reports -- in an attempt to determine exactly who did what.
Yet as much as the league would undoubtedly love to release its ruling on Sunday, when much of the nation is preoccupied with the NFL, Monday is more likely given how much has to be examined.
How closely will the two head coaches be looked at?
You can accuse Denver's George Karl of leaving his starters in way too long ... but you can't punish him for it. That's not an NBA crime. Not even if he did so as a way to convey his contempt for Knicks coach Isiah Thomas, as fallout from the offseason firing of Karl's close friend Larry Brown.
Thomas, by contrast, might be facing more than accusations. You can be sure the league will investigate suggestions that Collins' hard foul on Smith came via mandate from the Knicks' bench.
That sort of directive would be difficult to prove, but ESPN.com's Chris Sheridan reported Saturday night that Thomas, according to a member of the Nuggets' organization, warned Anthony not to venture near the paint not long before Collins' foul.
Which could put Thomas under the microscope as well, if similar accounts are conveyed to league personnel during Sunday's interview process.
Can players be traded while serving a suspension?
This is a pertinent question given Denver's well-chronicled pursuit of Allen Iverson.
The answer?
It appears to be, in the words of one Western Conference executive reached Saturday night, "a gray area."
It's believed that there is no language in the NBA's operations manual that specifically deals with teams' ability to trade a suspended player. The teams would likely require special permission from the league office if a player suspended for his actions Saturday night is needed by the Nuggets to complete an Iverson trade in coming days.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/column...arc&id=2700058
ESPN.com
Archive
You've undoubtedly got questions about Saturday night's fight at Madison Square Garden.
We've got the first batch of answers for what happens next to the New York Knicks and Denver Nuggets after a brawl that resulted in five ejections for each team and, at least for the moment, diverts some attention away from the Nuggets' front-runner status in the Allen Iverson Sweepstakes.
How long will the league's leading scorer be suspended?
A punch -- whether or not it connects -- gets you an automatic one-game suspension.
The severity of Carmelo Anthony's penalty from there, and for all the main players in this fracas, is a case-by-case call by NBA commissioner David Stern and VP Stu Jackson. Whether punches land, where they land and who's responsible for escalation all factor in, as does leaving the bench to join in.
The footage you've seen puts at least five players in unquestioned trouble.
1. New York's Mardy Collins took J.R. Smith down with the initial hard, two-handed foul that can't be pardoned no matter how frustrated the Knicks were with what they perceived as Denver intentionally running up the score.
2. New York's Nate Robinson was the first to escalate the situation by wildly confronting Smith and other Nuggets.
3. Smith went after Robinson and the ensuing tangle spilled into a fan section, not far from where Knicks chairman James Dolan sits.
4. Anthony became the other chief escalator by throwing a right hook at Collins ... a punch that came just when things appeared to be settling down.
5. New York's Jared Jeffries went so hard chasing after 'Melo in response to the punch that Jeffries fell down and still had to be restrained when he got up.
The best early estimates: A minimum of five games for Anthony and Robinson ... and possibly longer. Suspensions for Collins, Smith and Jeffries would appear to be in the range of 1-to-3 games.
Don't forget, though, that Stern has been exerting his authority more than ever since the infamous Detroit-Indiana brawl at the Palace of Auburn Hills on Nov. 19, 2004. Keeping that in mind, it wouldn't be a shocker to see all of those estimates fall short.
The Nuggets and Anthony, of course, stand to lose the most from a lengthy suspension. Denver, at 13-9, is clinging to seventh in the Western Conference with roughly one-fourth of the season gone. Given Anthony's importance to the Nuggets -- he's averaging a league-best 31.6 points -- they'd likely feel fortunate to win any game he misses.
For 'Melo himself, this episode is bound to take a chunk out of his newfound darling status ... just days after he donated $1.5 million to fund a youth development center in his hometown of Baltimore. After a variety of setbacks in his first three pro seasons, Anthony was widely regarded as the standout performer on a Team USA squad that finished a disappointing third in last summer's World Championships in Japan and has been hailed in recent weeks for the increasing maturity in his game in terms of shot selection and leadership.
How much harsher will the penalties be because the fight crossed into fan territory?
It's a factor for sure.
Comparisons will inevitably be drawn to the Palace brawl, but that's not a correct comparison. This wasn't even close to that.
Fans at Madison Square Garden, for starters, were innocent bystanders Saturday night. At no point did we see intentional interaction between players and fans.
However ...
Fans sitting along the baseline were endangered by the Robinson-Smith scrap, something the league office won't ignore.
For proof, we refer you to the better comparison, which was less than a year ago.
In Seattle, on Jan. 11, 2006, Orlando's Keyon Dooling and Seattle's Ray Allen wound up in the first row of seats along the sideline after fighting.
Dooling was suspended for five games for throwing a punch at Allen (which did not connect) and for what the league described as "attempting to confront [Allen] in the hallway following his ejection." Allen was suspended for three games.
How soon will the NBA announce the suspensions and fines?
Neither team plays Sunday and both have games Monday night. That gives Stern's staff a day-plus to conduct an investigation before the Knicks or Nuggets play again.
The inquiry will begin with NBA security personnel interviewing numerous players from both teams and include an extensive review of raw footage of the game from a variety of angles -- footage that wasn't seen on the game broadcast or initial TV news reports -- in an attempt to determine exactly who did what.
Yet as much as the league would undoubtedly love to release its ruling on Sunday, when much of the nation is preoccupied with the NFL, Monday is more likely given how much has to be examined.
How closely will the two head coaches be looked at?
You can accuse Denver's George Karl of leaving his starters in way too long ... but you can't punish him for it. That's not an NBA crime. Not even if he did so as a way to convey his contempt for Knicks coach Isiah Thomas, as fallout from the offseason firing of Karl's close friend Larry Brown.
Thomas, by contrast, might be facing more than accusations. You can be sure the league will investigate suggestions that Collins' hard foul on Smith came via mandate from the Knicks' bench.
That sort of directive would be difficult to prove, but ESPN.com's Chris Sheridan reported Saturday night that Thomas, according to a member of the Nuggets' organization, warned Anthony not to venture near the paint not long before Collins' foul.
Which could put Thomas under the microscope as well, if similar accounts are conveyed to league personnel during Sunday's interview process.
Can players be traded while serving a suspension?
This is a pertinent question given Denver's well-chronicled pursuit of Allen Iverson.
The answer?
It appears to be, in the words of one Western Conference executive reached Saturday night, "a gray area."
It's believed that there is no language in the NBA's operations manual that specifically deals with teams' ability to trade a suspended player. The teams would likely require special permission from the league office if a player suspended for his actions Saturday night is needed by the Nuggets to complete an Iverson trade in coming days.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/column...arc&id=2700058
1. Melo comes into league, hey he's a sweet innocent kid.
2. Melo gets caught with drugs...hey they're not mine!
3. Melo follows up with commercials where he eats milk and cookies and plays video games.
4. Melo then is in thug video in order to sell merchandise
5. Melo follows up with commercials where he is playing bball with kids.
6. Melo pushes, throws punch then runs away in brawl.
Biggest fraud in the NBA
Give him a 20 game suspension
2. Melo gets caught with drugs...hey they're not mine!
3. Melo follows up with commercials where he eats milk and cookies and plays video games.
4. Melo then is in thug video in order to sell merchandise
5. Melo follows up with commercials where he is playing bball with kids.
6. Melo pushes, throws punch then runs away in brawl.
Biggest fraud in the NBA
Give him a 20 game suspension
JCSunsfan
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Knicks coach Isiah Thomas said he even told Anthony that he never should have been in the game at the time.
"I just said to him, 'You know, you're up 20, you're up 19 with a minute and half to go, you and (Marcus) Camby really shouldn't be in the game right now," Thomas said. "We had surrendered, those guys shouldn't even be in the game at that point in time."
Robinson said the Nuggets were trying to run up the score in the final minutes.
"If we're up 20 points, we're not going to play Stephon and Eddy," Robinson said. "It's like a slap in the face, saying we're going to embarrass you like that."
-------------------------------------
What theory is it???
This is the type of thing that makes me angry. You are professional ball players. You are entertainers. This isn't little league where we are afraid little Johnny's feelings will get hurt. Play ball! It isn't your worry whether the other team is running the score up or not. If you are embarrassed, Isiah, tell your guys to play harder. I think its obnoxious to throw in the towel, AND THEN COMPLAIN ABOUT HOW BAD YOU ARE GETTING BEATEN.
Its fine for the other team to sub out early--especially if they think it gives them a strategic advantage (rest for the next game). But that is their prerogative. If you want a "mercy rule" why don't you just say "down by 20 with 3 minutes left--game over--just quit then."
Oh, I could go on and on about this. BTW, I am not excusing Denver's actions either. But Isiah's gripe is babyish.
Chaplin
Better off silent
Let's not be hypocrites here. If the Suns were down by 20 against the Mavs, and we had Pat Burke, Marcus Banks, James Jones, Sean Marks and Pike out there on the floor, and the Mavs had Dirk, Josh Howard and Jason Terry still in the game, are you saying you wouldn't be angry?
I wouldn't give a sh*t! Who cares! If they wanna show they're ignorance then let them.
Chaplin
Better off silent
I'm sorry, but 1) I don't believe you wouldn't care, and 2) I love your last sentence.
elindholm
edited for content
No, I wouldn't. This is a world-class athletic competition. If you lose, take it like a man and move on. Getting riled up over perceived "taunts" or "rubbing it in" is for high school. I didn't see anyone on this board complaining when the Suns kept running up the score at the end of Game 7 against the Lakers last summer.
And under no circumstances would I ever, as a coach, tell another team that they shouldn't have their best players on the floor.
Finally, if one of my players pulled the stunt that Collins did, he'd never see the floor for me again.
bratwurst
on double secret probation
I'm sorry, but 1) I don't believe you wouldn't care, and 2) I love your last sentence.
Funny thing Chaplin, is that I bet he's reread it a few times and doesn't know why you liked it so much.
Would this assertion apply to Raja Bell?
Chaplin
Better off silent
BOOM goes the dynamite!
Chaplin
Better off silent
Uh, that has nothing to do with it. The Suns being the ones running up the score wasn't the issue at hand, it was if the opposing team was the one running up the score.
And again, Eric, I sure wish you would quit your implications that I agree with everything Isaiah did.
Raja Bell.
Funny thing Chaplin, is that I bet he's reread it a few times and doesn't know why you liked it so much.
Ha ha, your pretty damn funny.
uh oh.
carrrnuttt
Didactic
Raja Bell was retaliating for having his head caved in repeatedly by Kobe's elbow. Not making it right by any means, but in the balancing books, what Kobe was doing was more painful and harmful than what Raja did, though Raja's act looked worse.
Either way, it was a tit for tat, though I am far from saying that it was right.
Shoving someone down from the air physically, for an imagined (or not) mental slight, does not equate with what Raja did.
All J.R.'s dunk would have done is hurt Collin's team's ego, and not his face. The thing is, Collins is a scrub player, so he actually had less investment in pride to lose than anyone else in the club.
elindholm
edited for content
The cases aren't remotely similar. One was a premeditated and very dangerous; the other was in the heat of the moment and harmless.
That said, I would be very angry with Bell as well -- as I have been all along.
The whining from the Knicks was not what caused the ejections. It was a bunch of world class players making stupid decisions, culminating to a cheap shot from Carmelo Anthony, one of the most despicable and low class acts from any player.
You can talk sportsmanship all you want; you can diss Isiah Thomas about his decision-making all you want. But the bottom line is, the players were the ones who got themselves in this mess.
The Nuggets players bit the hook, and they're no less guilty than the Knicks players.
You can talk sportsmanship all you want; you can diss Isiah Thomas about his decision-making all you want. But the bottom line is, the players were the ones who got themselves in this mess.
The Nuggets players bit the hook, and they're no less guilty than the Knicks players.
JCSunsfan
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Honestly, we've had situations like that before, and I wouldn't care. But when you are a coach or a player and you are complaining that you are getting beat too badly, and you have already given up--I'm sorry--it doesn't say much about your own self respect.
Oh, btw. I have always believed that the #1 tie breaker ought to be point differential. It would force every team to have a reason to play hard for 48 minutes. Teams would have a big reason to not only beat an opponent, but also to blow them out. Losing teams would have a reason to never "surrender" even if the victory is not possible.
Fans pay good money for their tickets, they should be entitled of 48 minutes of effort from each team.
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