Brawl in NY-Den game, 10 Ejected

[Chaplin]

The foul was a little harder than it should have been, but that is why it was called a flagrant. But don't turn around and say that it was all Isaiah's doing. That's just ludicrous.

Thomas tells Carmelo to "stay out of the paint" BEFORE the foul is committed and it is caught on video tape (no audio, but the video--from what I understand--is clear this is what he said).

And again, "staying out of the paint" has NOTHING to do with this incident.

 

[hafey]

I'm curious how "staying out of the paint" has nothing to do with the issue. Can you explain that? I tihnk it has everything to do with it.

 

[pokerface]

I'm curious how "staying out of the paint" has nothing to do with the issue. Can you explain that? I tihnk it has everything to do with it.

absolutely!

 

[elindholm]

Chaplin, is it your belief that when Thomas issued a warning to "stay out of the paint," and that when Collins then threw the driving, airborne Smith down by his neck just a moment later, this was a mere coincidence?

 

[jbeecham]

I just saw a sound-byte of a interview with George Karl. He was asked what he thought about Isiah Thomas's complaints of the Nuggets keeping their starters in and trying to run up the score. Karl responded by saying that Thomas "is full of **** and an ***hole" and then he stormed out of the interview.

 

[carrrnuttt]

I think Chaplin's just arguing to be argumentative. At this point, he has no point.

It's one thing to at least try and fake like you're going for the ball, but another to smack a player down who's already airborne, or at least sprinting to the hoop really fast.

It's a given that we will be blowing at least a couple of more teams this season (understatement, hopefully). If D'Antoni left Shawn in the game, especially to prevent the types of comebacks that have occurred against the Suns, and Shawn happens to breakaway for the dunk, should we then expect him to be smashed down if he ever gets a breakaway hoop? How about undercut during a last minute dunk? By your logic, we should, no?

 

[pokerface]

I think Chaplin's just arguing to be argumentative. At this point, he has no point.

Well first he said Thomas didnt instigate this which was clearly not the case. Thomas DID instigate this. Now Chaplins point he is hanging on to by a thread is basicly "Well Thomas didnt tell player "A" to grab player "B" a certain way and da da da"....

Well Chaplin, orders were given to the team in general...probably something like "absolutely no layups or give hard fouls or whatever". The Knicks were already ticked off then Thomas feeds into that giving his orders. Thomas set the Knicks up for a chain of events that later transpired. Its the coach giving the green light for nasty behavior. He doesnt have to get overly specific on what is to happen he just gives his blessing to getting rough. He set the tone and the team followed....GAME OVER.

 

[boisesuns]

I just saw a sound-byte of a interview with George Karl. He was asked what he thought about Isiah Thomas's complaints of the Nuggets keeping their starters in and trying to run up the score. Karl responded by saying that Thomas "is full of **** and an ***hole" and then he stormed out of the interview.

 

[Divide Et Impera]

I guess Karl was mad that he didn't get fined, so he did what he had to do to get fined. Karl must have been hot. He was a hot Karl....

 

[Treesquid PhD]

Don't let that little punk Nate Robinson off the hook.

from the Post
If justice ain't dumb and blind, Stern should lock up Nate Robinson and throw away the key. As usual the half-pint punk went looking for trouble. Had he not sped to the scene of the crime and pushed J.R. Smith, and then goaded him into a fight, had he not fermented festivities, the explosive situation would've been defused. There goes any chance of swapping him for another team mascot.

LMAO, some of you would probably still want him here.

 

[Chaplin]

Chaplin, is it your belief that when Thomas issued a warning to "stay out of the paint," and that when Collins then threw the driving, airborne Smith down by his neck just a moment later, this was a mere coincidence?

Yes. Because the type of foul Thomas was warning Carmelo about was different than the type of foul Collins actually committed.

You guys don't agree with me, that is absolutely fine. I happen to think that while Thomas is a despicable human being, the brawl was not caused by him. Again, it was the players on the floor. And these are men, not kids. They should know when to hold their tempers.

Carmelo being angry at Thomas for saying what he said is understandable. But throwing a punch and you guys blaming Isaiah for it?? You guys actually think that makes sense?

Number one, Thomas should not have said one word to Carmelo Anthony. That's a given.

Number two, Thomas was upset that Karl left his starters in, and rightfully so, IMO.

Number three, it is postulated that the only reason that Collins grabbed Smith around the neck was because Thomas told him to. This I find completely ludicrous. Collins was preventing a breakaway dunk. I agree with everyone here that what he did was excessive, but he did raise his arms afterward and it was forward momentum (both his and JR Smith's) that caused Smith to fall.

Number four, it could have ended at that. Collins most likely would have been ejected, and Karl's bench guys would have gone in the game. The problem escalated when Nate Robinson tried to seperate Smith and Collins, and then he pushed Smith away. Smith didn't like that, and neither did his teammates, and that's when it escalated. At no point was Isaiah Thomas involved in that fight.

Number five, back to the "order" by Thomas to foul. We'll probably never know whether the order was, "If Carmelo gets the ball, foul him", or "If a starter gets the ball, kill them." You all can postulate that the latter is what he said, I happen to think that there is not enough evidence to support that conclusion. That's all.

And number six, again, guys like pokerface and others on this thread who are in danger of turning this into a personal vendetta against me need to quit ignoring the fact that I don't like Isaiah as a coach, a GM or as a person. I don't like my Uncle Phillip either, but it doesn't mean I'm going to accuse him of murder.

I know someone else will probably jump on and ridicule me, and that's ok. I have my opinion, and you guys have yours. More power to you. I just disagree with the assertion that this is all Isaiah's fault for ALLEGEDLY ordering his players to hurt the opposing team purposely.

 

[pokerface]

And number six, again, guys like pokerface and others on this thread who are in danger of turning this into a personal vendetta against me need to quit ignoring the fact that I don't like Isaiah as a coach, a GM or as a person. I don't like my Uncle Phillip either, but it doesn't mean I'm going to accuse him of murder.

If there was another person that thought like you on this thread I'd disagree with them as well. No need for the paranoia and no need to single me out when everyone and their mother isnt seeing your point.

Thomas set this mess in motion....accept it and move on.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Yes. Because the type of foul Thomas was warning Carmelo about was different than the type of foul Collins actually committed.

You guys don't agree with me, that is absolutely fine. I happen to think that while Thomas is a despicable human being, the brawl was not caused by him. Again, it was the players on the floor. And these are men, not kids. They should know when to hold their tempers.

Carmelo being angry at Thomas for saying what he said is understandable. But throwing a punch and you guys blaming Isaiah for it?? You guys actually think that makes sense?

Number one, Thomas should not have said one word to Carmelo Anthony. That's a given.

Number two, Thomas was upset that Karl left his starters in, and rightfully so, IMO.

Number three, it is postulated that the only reason that Collins grabbed Smith around the neck was because Thomas told him to. This I find completely ludicrous. Collins was preventing a breakaway dunk. I agree with everyone here that what he did was excessive, but he did raise his arms afterward and it was forward momentum (both his and JR Smith's) that caused Smith to fall.

Number four, it could have ended at that. Collins most likely would have been ejected, and Karl's bench guys would have gone in the game. The problem escalated when Nate Robinson tried to seperate Smith and Collins, and then he pushed Smith away. Smith didn't like that, and neither did his teammates, and that's when it escalated. At no point was Isaiah Thomas involved in that fight.

Number five, back to the "order" by Thomas to foul. We'll probably never know whether the order was, "If Carmelo gets the ball, foul him", or "If a starter gets the ball, kill them." You all can postulate that the latter is what he said, I happen to think that there is not enough evidence to support that conclusion. That's all.

And number six, again, guys like pokerface and others on this thread who are in danger of turning this into a personal vendetta against me need to quit ignoring the fact that I don't like Isaiah as a coach, a GM or as a person. I don't like my Uncle Phillip either, but it doesn't mean I'm going to accuse him of murder.

I know someone else will probably jump on and ridicule me, and that's ok. I have my opinion, and you guys have yours. More power to you. I just disagree with the assertion that this is all Isaiah's fault for ALLEGEDLY ordering his players to hurt the opposing team purposely.

If so, it would have to be a vendetta + 1 because I agree with you 100% on this argument.

 

[Chaplin]

If there was another person that thought like you on this thread I'd disagree with them as well. No need for the paranoia and no need to single me out when everyone and their mother isnt seeing your point.

That's obviously wrong, so maybe you should jump off the bandwagon and refute the points I made. "Thomas set this mess in motion" isn't even close to being enough.

 

[elindholm]

Yes. Because the type of foul Thomas was warning Carmelo about was different than the type of foul Collins actually committed.

How?

Collins was preventing a breakaway dunk. I agree with everyone here that what he did was excessive, but he did raise his arms afterward

You keep bringing up this point about how he raised his arms. What does that have to do with anything? All it means is that he was "confessing" to an obvious foul. If I shoot someone in broad daylight in front of 15,000 witnesses, then say "Yep, that was me," does that make it less of a crime?

Number four, it could have ended at that. Collins most likely would have been ejected, and Karl's bench guys would have gone in the game.

You also keep bringing this point up, but I don't see the relevance. Yes, the players are at fault. No one has disputed that in the least. You seem to think that once you are able to blame enough people, everyone else is automatically off the hook.

Number five, back to the "order" by Thomas to foul. We'll probably never know whether the order was, "If Carmelo gets the ball, foul him", or "If a starter gets the ball, kill them."

Or, if we ever do know that it was the latter, someone will come up with a way to say that it still doesn't mean he is to blame for anything.

I just disagree with the assertion that this is all Isaiah's fault for ALLEGEDLY ordering his players to hurt the opposing team purposely.

Not one person has said that this is all Thomas's fault. In fact, unless I've overlooked it, no one has said anything even close to that.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I guess Karl was mad that he didn't get fined, so he did what he had to do to get fined. Karl must have been hot. He was a hot Karl....

that's a lot of work for a bad joke.

 

[Chaplin]

How?

I don't really want to explain it again, but I will anyway. Thomas told Carmelo to stay out of the paint the next time down the floor because there would be a foul. A calculated foul--regardless of the strength of it (and I still refuse to believe that he told his players to hurt the Nuggets).

Collins' foul on Smith was on a breakaway dunk, a common occurence in the NBA. Contrary to what you think, there was no time for a rookie like Mardy Collins to think about trying to injure Smith because of the speed in which that play developed.

You keep bringing up this point about how he raised his arms. What does that have to do with anything? All it means is that he was "confessing" to an obvious foul. If I shoot someone in broad daylight in front of 15,000 witnesses, then say "Yep, that was me," does that make it less of a crime?

You make it sound like a flagrant foul is some rare occurence in the annals of professional basketball games. Your point throughout this thread has been that Isaiah told his player to hurt the other team. A guy committing a hard foul and then raising his arms in recognition that he did it (and thereby trying to show that he actually DID NOT attempt to kill JR Smith) shows some idea of what his intent was. And I don't think it was to injure Smith.

You also keep bringing this point up, but I don't see the relevance. Yes, the players are at fault. No one has disputed that in the least. You seem to think that once you are able to blame enough people, everyone else is automatically off the hook.

Please. Have you read nothing of what I wrote, Eric? You're usually much more analytical than this.

Or, if we ever do know that it was the latter, someone will come up with a way to say that it still doesn't mean he is to blame for anything.

And your point is what? What does that have to do with anything other than a veiled jab at me?

Not one person has said that this is all Thomas's fault. In fact, unless I've overlooked it, no one has said anything even close to that.

Eric, this is the first page of this entire thread that you've mentioned ANY culpability from any of the players. Every post you've written has been about blaming Isaiah, so don't say nobody is saying it's all Thomas's fault, because you yourself have done so.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

How?



You keep bringing up this point about how he raised his arms. What does that have to do with anything? All it means is that he was "confessing" to an obvious foul. If I shoot someone in broad daylight in front of 15,000 witnesses, then say "Yep, that was me," does that make it less of a crime?

Obvious fouls do not incite brawls. If that was the case, everytime someone raised their hands, we would see a riot on the court. You need to go further than that.

 

[pokerface]

That's obviously wrong, so maybe you should jump off the bandwagon and refute the points I made. "Thomas set this mess in motion" isn't even close to being enough.

I jumped off the bandwagon before and talked in length about Amares Microfracture (with you mostly) and I was accused of dragging the conversation out and basicly told to drop it by everybody. Now here we are 10 pages into this and you're saying it isnt close to being enough??

DROP IT CHAPLIN

 

[Chaplin]

I jumped off the bandwagon before and talked in length about Amares Microfracture (with you mostly) and I was accused of dragging the conversation out and basicly told to drop it by everybody. Now here we are 10 pages into this and you're saying it isnt close to being enough??

DROP IT CHAPLIN

LOL

You want me to admit I'm wrong on something I feel I am not, and yet you are ordering me to "drop it"? That's so you, pf.

 

[elindholm]

Contrary to what you think, there was no time for a rookie like Mardy Collins to think about trying to injure Smith because of the speed in which that play developed.

You're right, that's contrary to what I think. For example, just today, I was in a pickup game and was trying to chase down someone who had a breakaway layup. I could tell that there was no way to foul him without risking injury (since I was a step late and he was already in the air), so I backed off. Now, true, I'm not as fast as an NBA player, but I had more than enough time to think about what I was doing.

Your point throughout this thread has been that Isaiah told his player to hurt the other team.

And you keep insisting that he didn't, in spite of clear evidence to the contrary.

A guy committing a hard foul and then raising his arms in recognition that he did it (and thereby trying to show that he actually DID NOT attempt to kill JR Smith) shows some idea of what his intent was.

I disagree. I think it's a pathetically cynical way to make a premeditated attack look like an accident.

Eric, this is the first page of this entire thread that you've mentioned ANY culpability from any of the players.

I thought it was obvious. Of course the players are culpable; no sane person would dispute that. The argument is whether they are the only ones culpable.

Obvious fouls do not incite brawls. If that was the case, everytime someone raised their hands, we would see a riot on the court. You need to go further than that.

You lost me. I wasn't saying he raised his hand because it was an obvious foul. I said that raising his hand does not, by itself, mean that the play wasn't dangerous.

 

[Mainstreet]

If so, it would have to be a vendetta + 1 because I agree with you 100% on this argument.

Remember, remember, the 16th of December. Sorry, I couldn't help myself with the vendetta reference. I started thinking about the movie "Vendetta."

Nevermind.

 

[SO91]

I personally don't feel either coach is responsible for the brawl. They are definetly responsible for a lack of discipline from their players though. These guys are pros, and thus should be able to control themselves. If a hard foul was in fact called for, it still doesn't justify what took place afterwards. This is a league that has, for the most part, embraced the individualism and showboating of it's players, so a breakaway dunk by a starter shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody.

 

[Chaplin]

You lost me. I wasn't saying he raised his hand because it was an obvious foul. I said that raising his hand does not, by itself, mean that the play wasn't dangerous.

No, you're right. Nobody is saying that the end result of that play isn't dangerous. The point here is intent. You seem to think very badly on Mardy Collins and Isaiah Thomas, that there was definitely intent to injure JR Smith. I contend that your opinion is lacking based on the facts of the matter, not conjecture and assumption. The trick is that neither of our opinions are inherently provable unless Collins or Isaiah actually comes out and said, "Yes, I intended to put JR Smith into the hospital".

 

[carrrnuttt]

No, you're right. Nobody is saying that the end result of that play isn't dangerous. The point here is intent. You seem to think very badly on Mardy Collins and Isaiah Thomas, that there was definitely intent to injure JR Smith. I contend that your opinion is lacking based on the facts of the matter, not conjecture and assumption. The trick is that neither of our opinions are inherently provable unless Collins or Isaiah actually comes out and said, "Yes, I intended to put JR Smith into the hospital".

If I may speak frankly - you're an idiot - at least in this regard.

OF COURSE there was no intent to cause injury to anyone. But go ahead and try to argue that there was no intent to cause harm. You cannot intentionally foul anyone running full tilt expecting the guy to stop on a dime ("Hey, STOP, I fouled you already!" - LMAO). Nor can you expect the running player to stop softly. Even if you bear hug him successfully, that is still a sudden stop that, at the very worst, can snap someones neck and injure it. Bad timing on the fouler's part can lead, and has led to injuries.

Why did you think Isiah thought to warn an NBA star? Because it'll be roses underneath the basket and he didn't want to share the aroma? It's like you're Rumsfeld saying that the US will be greeted as liberators in Iraq.

No one here is saying that Isiah or Mardy wanted to injure anyone, but what the hell do you think a "hard" or "flagrant" foul is? A love tap?

Did you seriously think that the former Temple coach meant for that one kid's arm to be broken? He wanted to "send a message", just as Isiah did. It's just that the timing or the effect of "the message" caused the kid to fall on his arm and break it - something that could have easily occurred to JR Smith, and anyone who has ever stepped on the court, including Isiah and Mardy surely knows the possible consequences.

Intent to injure? No. Foreknowledge of harm, and a possible injury? Damn skippy.