Brawl in NY-Den game, 10 Ejected

sunsfn

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This is from ESPN, not insider.
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Suspensions total 47 games from Knicks-Nuggets fight

ESPN.com news services

NEW YORK -- The Denver Nuggets were the bigger losers Monday after the NBA handed out penalties in the fight that broke out near the end of Saturday night's game against the New York Knicks at Madison Square Garden.
Denver's Carmelo Anthony, the NBA's leading scorer, was suspended 15 games for sucker-punching the Knicks' Mardy Collins. Denver teammate J.R. Smith and New York's Nate Robinson also received stiff penalties from the league -- 10-game suspensions.
"It is our obligation to take the strongest possible steps to avoid such failures in the future and to make a statement to all who follow the game of basketball that we understand our obligations and take them seriously," NBA commissioner David Stern said in a statement.
There was no separate penalty for Knicks coach Isiah Thomas, who had warned Anthony not to go into the lane before the mayhem started Saturday night.
There was speculation Thomas would be penalized for his comments to Anthony. Stern acknowledged hearing about it, but said he relied only on "definitive information" when handing out punishments.
The NBA, still trying to repair its image after the brawl between Indiana Pacers players and Detroit Pistons fans two years ago, also fined the Nuggets and Knicks $500,000 apiece.


Stern said the fines to the organizations are meant to show he is serious about cleaning up the game.
"It's a more general message that I'm going to start holding our teams accountable," Stern said.
Collins, whose hard foul of Smith was the flashpoint for the fight, was suspended for six games. Knicks forward Jared Jeffries was suspended for four games, and New York's Jerome James and Denver's Nene were hit with one-game penalties for leaving their respective benches during an on-court altercation.
Thomas had a discussion with Anthony about 20 seconds before Collins delivered an arms-around-the-neck foul on Smith on a breakaway basket. Though Thomas acknowledged telling Anthony not to go into the paint, he said he meant it not as a threat but as a lecture on sportsmanship.
"I don't regret fouling him as hard as I did, I just regret that the whole thing escalated the way it did," Collins said Monday. "I was out there competing and I didn't want the guy to get a layup and I was basically trying to stop him from going in the air. That's why I fouled him that hard, so he wouldn't get hurt."
After the game, which Denver won 123-100, Thomas and Knicks players were angry that the Nuggets had four starters on the floor with 1:15 to play. And while Thomas wouldn't say if Denver coach George Karl was trying to embarrass the Knicks, he again stressed that starters shouldn't have been in the game.
"I can't speak for him, but he put his players in a tough position," Thomas said. "I think he put his players in a very bad position."
All 10 players on the floor were ejected after the brawl.
Anthony said Sunday he was sorry his emotions got the best of him. He apologized to fans, the Nuggets, the NBA, his own family -- and to Collins and his family.
"Last night's altercation with the Knicks escalated further than it should have. I take full responsibility for my actions in the matter," Anthony said in a statement. "My actions were inexcusable, and I am sorry for making this an even more embarrassing situation."
Information from The Associated Press was used in this report.
 

82CardsGrad

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Isiah may have actually told Mello to stay out of the paint. ANd if he did, good for him as I'm sure he knew things were deteriorating and didn't want to see a start like Mello get hurt...

You have to be kidding me. If Thomas suspected that trouble was brewing and didn't support it, he needed to get his hotheads off the floor. There is absolutely no chance that he was honestly looking out for Anthony.


For the record, I despise Thomas... But, I believe he did not want to see Anthony get hurt.
He did not "need to get his hotheads off the floor"... Karl needed to get his starters off the floor..
 

elindholm

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For the record, I despise Thomas... But, I believe he did not want to see Anthony get hurt.

I have some lovely beach property in Avondale to sell you. For all of Thomas's track record as an instigator, how can you possibly believe that this is the ONE time in his life he wanted to make nice?
 

Mulli

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For the record, I despise Thomas... But, I believe he did not want to see Anthony get hurt.

I have some lovely beach property in Avondale to sell you. For all of Thomas's track record as an instigator, how can you possibly believe that this is the ONE time in his life he wanted to make nice?
:thumbup:
 

82CardsGrad

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For the record, I despise Thomas... But, I believe he did not want to see Anthony get hurt.

I have some lovely beach property in Avondale to sell you. For all of Thomas's track record as an instigator, how can you possibly believe that this is the ONE time in his life he wanted to make nice?

Who said anything about "making nice"?? I think he knew there was going to be trouble, didn't stop his guys from playing rough in the end, but simply didn't want to see a star in the league get needlessly involved or worse, hurt. Particularly since Mello was not one of the Nuggets who were doing 360 slam dunks when up by 20...

Karl screwed up bigtime... His relationship with Larry Brown was indeed a factor here. There are few, if any other coaches who would have had their starters in the game at the point. And there are very few, if any players who would not have done the same thing Collins did when he grabbed the Nugget player when he was going up for the layup...
Had Karl not screwed up, and not tried to exact revenge on Thomas for the treatment of Larry Brown, this never would have happened...
Too bad you can't see reality...
 

elindholm

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Too bad you can't see reality...

The reality is that the Nuggets insulted the Knicks, and the Knicks retaliated by attempting to inflict severe bodily harm. That's evidently okay to you, but it isn't to me.

Most of us learned the old "stick and stones" chant when we were in elementary school. If getting blown out on your home floor isn't embarrassing, but having someone "rub it in" puts you over the edge, you shouldn't be a professional athlete.

Of course Karl was trying to pay Thomas back for his handling of the Brown situation. So what? A real man would shrug it off, but Thomas is the farthest thing possible from a real man.
 

82CardsGrad

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Too bad you can't see reality...

The reality is that the Nuggets insulted the Knicks, and the Knicks retaliated by attempting to inflict severe bodily harm. That's evidently okay to you, but it isn't to me.

Most of us learned the old "stick and stones" chant when we were in elementary school. If getting blown out on your home floor isn't embarrassing, but having someone "rub it in" puts you over the edge, you shouldn't be a professional athlete.

Of course Karl was trying to pay Thomas back for his handling of the Brown situation. So what? A real man would shrug it off, but Thomas is the farthest thing possible from a real man.

Exactly what did the Knicks do that was "over the edge"??
 

boisesuns

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If the knicks didn't suck none of this would have happened.

Does Thomas remind anone else of Michael Jackson?


:)
 

dreamcastrocks

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You mean neither has done anything good in 10-15 years? I agree with that.

:biglaugh:

I love Michael's early work, it's too bad this is sad but true.
 

JCSunsfan

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Too bad you can't see reality...

The reality is that the Nuggets insulted the Knicks, and the Knicks retaliated by attempting to inflict severe bodily harm. That's evidently okay to you, but it isn't to me.

Most of us learned the old "stick and stones" chant when we were in elementary school. If getting blown out on your home floor isn't embarrassing, but having someone "rub it in" puts you over the edge, you shouldn't be a professional athlete.

Of course Karl was trying to pay Thomas back for his handling of the Brown situation. So what? A real man would shrug it off, but Thomas is the farthest thing possible from a real man.

Wow, I so much agree with Eric on this thing, it scares me. I don't care if a team plays its starters to the very end--unless its my team and we're blowing someone out (in that case its a strategic mistake, we should be resting our starters).

The stupid "unwritten rules" are the vestiges of pee wee sports and recreational leagues and have no place in pro sports.

Again, make point differential the first tie-breaker and we won't have any of this cry baby stuff.
 

Chaplin

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Too bad you can't see reality...

The reality is that the Nuggets insulted the Knicks, and the Knicks retaliated by attempting to inflict severe bodily harm. That's evidently okay to you, but it isn't to me.

That is simply not true. It is obvious from the replays that the FLAGRANT FOUL was hard, but it certainly didn't look like Mardy Collins intended to hurt Smith. Intimidate, maybe, but not hurt.
Most of us learned the old "stick and stones" chant when we were in elementary school. If getting blown out on your home floor isn't embarrassing, but having someone "rub it in" puts you over the edge, you shouldn't be a professional athlete.

Of course Karl was trying to pay Thomas back for his handling of the Brown situation. So what? A real man would shrug it off, but Thomas is the farthest thing possible from a real man.

This blame game you're playing is pretty amazing, do you hold nobody BUT Thomas accountable? That boggles my mind.
 

Chaplin

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Wow, I so much agree with Eric on this thing, it scares me. I don't care if a team plays its starters to the very end--unless its my team and we're blowing someone out (in that case its a strategic mistake, we should be resting our starters).

The stupid "unwritten rules" are the vestiges of pee wee sports and recreational leagues and have no place in pro sports.

Again, make point differential the first tie-breaker and we won't have any of this cry baby stuff.

You guys are totally missing the whole point of this thing. The flagrant foul was flagrant, but there was no intent to hurt JR Smith. PERIOD.

Everything that happened afterward is after the fact, and an instance where two teams couldn't settle their issue with the foul like they are paid to do. And blaming that on the coach is even more ludicrous. The coach isn't their father, these are grown men, as you all love to point out.
 

Chaplin

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Inflicting possible physical harm over a perceived mental slight. Ego vs Flesh.

Not right, regardless of whether it was a "star" being "fouled hard" or not.

EVERY player in the NBA has given a hard foul at one time.

Why does Mardy Collins' foul give him more punishment than what Raja did last year to Kobe? Is it ok because Raja gave in to frustration? Wait, that's what Collins did as well. You guys are running with a double standard here.
 

JCSunsfan

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You guys are totally missing the whole point of this thing. The flagrant foul was flagrant, but there was no intent to hurt JR Smith. PERIOD.

Everything that happened afterward is after the fact, and an instance where two teams couldn't settle their issue with the foul like they are paid to do. And blaming that on the coach is even more ludicrous. The coach isn't their father, these are grown men, as you all love to point out.

There is something very bush about giving a hard foul in a blowout, because you are ticked that you are losing. There is no excusing Isiah for that. BTW, hard fouls ALWAYS have the potential to cause physical harm--and the players know it.

But, by this, I am in no way excusing the Nuggets either. They didn't have to respond the way they did. We didn't get into a brawl when Zarko was taken down, and the Lakers (um. . . this is the last compliment I will ever give them) didn't lose their cool when Raja fouled Kobe hard.

I sincerely doubt, though, that Mike told Raja to do that. Players do give hard fouls in the heat of battle out of frustration or simply by accident. Its quite another thing to plan it--which seems to be what Isiah did. Then, worst of all, to complain about not showing mercy. . .but I now repeat myself.
 
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JCSunsfan

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EVERY player in the NBA has given a hard foul at one time.

Why does Mardy Collins' foul give him more punishment than what Raja did last year to Kobe? Is it ok because Raja gave in to frustration? Wait, that's what Collins did as well. You guys are running with a double standard here.

Collin's foul was at the end of a blowout in the regular season and seems to be calculated to "send a message." Raja's foul was in the flow, in the heat of a close playoff series.

I do believe this is the difference the league sees in the two fouls.

Also, Kobe was on the floor, and moving much more slowly. There was less chance for injury. I'm not trying to make a particular case with this, I am just trying to understand why league officials saw it differently.
 

Chaplin

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Collin's foul was at the end of a blowout in the regular season and seems to be calculated to "send a message." Raja's foul was in the flow, in the heat of a close playoff series.

I do believe this is the difference the league sees in the two fouls.

Also, Kobe was on the floor, and moving much more slowly. There was less chance for injury. I'm not trying to make a particular case with this, I am just trying to understand why league officials saw it differently.

How do you come up with that? It wasn't like the Nuggets were in a half-court set and they tossed it down low and then got fouled. It was a breakaway for a dunk--even if Isaiah was yelling "foul him! foul him!" it doesn't mean anything. On one hand, Collins was preventing an easy score. On the other, he was also frustrated that they were down 19, a starter was going in for another showboatting dunk, and they got the ball off a bad pass by David Lee. The foul was a little harder than it should have been, but that is why it was called a flagrant. But don't turn around and say that it was all Isaiah's doing. That's just ludicrous.
 

Chaplin

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Collin's foul was at the end of a blowout in the regular season and seems to be calculated to "send a message." Raja's foul was in the flow, in the heat of a close playoff series.

I do believe this is the difference the league sees in the two fouls.

Also, Kobe was on the floor, and moving much more slowly. There was less chance for injury. I'm not trying to make a particular case with this, I am just trying to understand why league officials saw it differently.

A hard foul is a hard foul--both had the chance of injuring someone, regardless of what kind of game it was.
 

elindholm

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That is simply not true. It is obvious from the replays that the FLAGRANT FOUL was hard, but it certainly didn't look like Mardy Collins intended to hurt Smith.

Well, I completely disagree. It reminds me of "reckless endangerment" in our legal system. Collins acted with callous disrepsect toward Smith's well-being, and that is equivalent to an intent to harm. We say the same thing about Ginobili spastically flopping into people's knees or Bowen "accidentally" stepping into the area where an opponent is trying to land. The only difference is that this was an even clearer personal assault.

In any case, I don't see how you can call your interpretation "obvious." It evidently isn't obvious to too many other people.

This blame game you're playing is pretty amazing, do you hold nobody BUT Thomas accountable? That boggles my mind.

Where did you come up with that idea? There is plenty of blame to go around. Of course the players are at fault, but why do you think that absolves Thomas?
 

JCSunsfan

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The foul was a little harder than it should have been, but that is why it was called a flagrant. But don't turn around and say that it was all Isaiah's doing. That's just ludicrous.

Thomas tells Carmelo to "stay out of the paint" BEFORE the foul is committed and it is caught on video tape (no audio, but the video--from what I understand--is clear this is what he said).

The flagrant is committed.

Thomas tells Carmelo afterwards that "the starters should not have been on the floor" and intimates that the Nuggets got what they deserved.

The same type of flagrant was committed the night before when the team was down by 16.

I'd say that's pretty convincing evidence that Isiah shares a significant part of the blame, and probably instructed his player to foul hard. It might not get a conviction in criminal court, but it would probably get a pretty nice judgment in civil court, and I think the NBA office takes the liberty to go by the latter standard of evidence rather than the former.
 

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Look, any of you who believe "unwritten rules" either don't exist, or shouldn't exist know nothing of teams sports... The have always existed and always will - rightly so...
Collins's foul was no more harsh than hundreds of other hard fouls given throughout the year.
Raja's foul on Kobe was more harsh - but didn't escalate because it was a playoff game. Had that foul taken place in the regular season, you can guarantee a brawl would have ensued.
This who incident is sooooo going in the wrong direction... George Karl is the root of the problem. He should be held accountable - period... It's a shame the NBA doesn't have the balls to actually dow what's right. But yoiu need to ask yourselves, why? Why is the NBA not going after Karl?? To answer that question - see the part about "unwritten rules"... :thumbup:
 

JCSunsfan

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Look, any of you who believe "unwritten rules" either don't exist, or shouldn't exist know nothing of teams sports... The have always existed and always will - rightly so...
Collins's foul was no more harsh than hundreds of other hard fouls given throughout the year.
Raja's foul on Kobe was more harsh - but didn't escalate because it was a playoff game. Had that foul taken place in the regular season, you can guarantee a brawl would have ensued.
This who incident is sooooo going in the wrong direction... George Karl is the root of the problem. He should be held accountable - period... It's a shame the NBA doesn't have the balls to actually dow what's right. But yoiu need to ask yourselves, why? Why is the NBA not going after Karl?? To answer that question - see the part about "unwritten rules"... :thumbup:

I have played and coached team sports for over 30 years. I think I know a little about it. You are entitled to your opinion--even if it is wrong.
 
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