Brian Hoyer news

imaCafan

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As in any job market, sometimes taking a pay cut where you are is wise, because the only job you could get otherwise, though it wouldn't be a pay cut per say (because you didn't have the job prior) would pay you less than where you are currently employed (if you could even get another job, that is). I think if they want Kolb, both parties can come to an agreement on $$$$$....oh, forgot to put IMHO.....
 

JeffGollin

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What I would like to see from posters, since I have no evaluation skills, is that if you think we shouldn't keep Hoyer (or Kolb, Skelton, Lindley) what would you do? We need 3 QB's (at least) and I wonder what 3 you think we should have in camp. I'm of the Kolb (at a greatly reduced salary) Hoyer & rookie camp. Also, I would keep an eye on the Raiders & watch to see if Palmer is released.....
(I've posted the following elsewhere - sorry if it sounds repetitious):

But first, I don't care which QB was favored over which other QB by some other team a year, two years or three years ago. The issue before us is: "Looking forward - based on what we've seen on tape, on the practice field or what our coaches can do with him - can Hoyer (or anyone else) do the job?"

In answer to your question: ("What would you do")? - I'd give BA and Tom Moore as many options to work with as possible - probably including: (1) Kolb, (2) Hoyer, (3) a veteran from outside (Stanton?), (4) a drafted QB, (5) a UDFA QB and (6) Lindley. My goal would be to wind up with (1) a trustworthy starter, (2) a backup good enough to win half our games with, (3) a QBOF to groom and possibly (4) a PS QB.

I'd then narrow the field down to 3 or 4 as quickly as possible based on working with the guys "hands on." If I could predict the future, I could see us going with

1. Kolb or Hoyer
2. Stanton or Kolb or Hoyer
3. Lindley, Manuel and/or Scott
PS. Lindley. Manuel and/or Scott

Sorry - No apparent Unitas's in this group, but realistically, I think this is close to what we can expect.
 
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GuernseyCard

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Here is my thought and take that for what it is worth. They will be bringing in a veteran, and more than likely a Drew Stanton or a Byron Leftwich because they know the system. So there is a #2 QB or potential starter (don't love the idea but it could be a reality). The Cardinals will keep Skelton and Lindley as camp bodies for as long as they can because they are cheap and young. The Cardinals will probably draft a rookie QB somewhere in this draft, but most agree that the draft is not heavy in immediate starters. Then there is Kevin Kolb. I can't see the Cardinals keeping him at his current salary and I have a tough time believing Kolb will take a pay cut. He will get his guaranteed money and then be able to be one of the top options in a very weak FA QB crop if cut. Kolb does not have any reason to take a pay cut. Because of this, why not place a tender on Hoyer that will guarantee draft pick compensation, but still allows you to cut him before training camp without a hit if he gets beat out by one of the other QBs?

Essentially the Cards would be going into camp with a battle for 2 QB spots between Hoyer, FA vet, Skelton and Lindley and then have another spot for the rookie QB they will most likely draft. Also, it isn't likely that we will be big players in FA so that 2 mil will come out of the savings from cutting Kolb, and probably wouldn't be spent elsewhere anyway.

Just my thought.

I can think of a few reasons why Kolb would agree to a pay cut.

1. He'll get cut if he doesn't.
2. He won't make more than the Cards offer on the open market.
3. The Cards offer the best opportunity to start in 2013.
 

JeffGollin

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Neither one would make it to the practice squad.
Are you saying that they're not good enough to make the PS? Or that they'd either (a) not clear waivers or (b) some other team would sign him off our PS onto their own active roster?
 

MadCardDisease

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Are you saying that they're not good enough to make the PS? Or that they'd either (a) not clear waivers or (b) some other team would sign him off our PS onto their own active roster?

He is saying that another team would snatch them up before they made it to the practice squad.
 

kerouac9

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Hoyer and Kafta both worked out for Pitt on November 19th, Hoyer won the job over Kafta. Hoyer was signed off Waivers from Pitt on December 10th. Mike Kafta was not signed by NE until January 4, 2013 to a futures contract.

Yup. I was wrong. I just did a quick look at NE's roster and saw Kafka on it. I should have said that New England preferred to go with no one as their #3 QB instead of Hoyer.
 

kerouac9

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Here is my thought and take that for what it is worth. They will be bringing in a veteran, and more than likely a Drew Stanton or a Byron Leftwich because they know the system. So there is a #2 QB or potential starter (don't love the idea but it could be a reality). The Cardinals will keep Skelton and Lindley as camp bodies for as long as they can because they are cheap and young. The Cardinals will probably draft a rookie QB somewhere in this draft, but most agree that the draft is not heavy in immediate starters. Then there is Kevin Kolb. I can't see the Cardinals keeping him at his current salary and I have a tough time believing Kolb will take a pay cut. He will get his guaranteed money and then be able to be one of the top options in a very weak FA QB crop if cut. Kolb does not have any reason to take a pay cut. Because of this, why not place a tender on Hoyer that will guarantee draft pick compensation, but still allows you to cut him before training camp without a hit if he gets beat out by one of the other QBs?

Essentially the Cards would be going into camp with a battle for 2 QB spots between Hoyer, FA vet, Skelton and Lindley and then have another spot for the rookie QB they will most likely draft. Also, it isn't likely that we will be big players in FA so that 2 mil will come out of the savings from cutting Kolb, and probably wouldn't be spent elsewhere anyway.

Just my thought.

I don't think the Cards are savvy enough operators to release a guy on an RFA tender at the beginning of the season with the understanding that they don't have to pay him. But maybe after reading about it, they'll realize that they can.

In the event that Hoyer wins a #2 job (he's not going to make the roster as a $2.3M third QB--he's no Brian St. Pierre), it's still throwing $700K away. When was the last time a meaningful player was signed to an RFA tender? If someone's dumb enough to sign a player that completes 55% of his passes to an offer that we don't want to match, more power to 'em.

The guy sat by his phone for two months waiting for it to ring not long ago.
 

Chopper0080

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I can think of a few reasons why Kolb would agree to a pay cut.

1. He'll get cut if he doesn't.
2. He won't make more than the Cards offer on the open market.
3. The Cards offer the best opportunity to start in 2013.

Why does Kolb care if he gets cut? He gets his guaranteed money in one lump sum, and he is able to hit free agency in a weak year. Matt Moore just got a 2yr, 8mil deal to be a backup. Kolb would pull at least that level of contract, and maybe more if he goes to a team that has QB issues. As far as starting, do you think Kolb is more interested in starting for AZ or collecting his money and going to a team that gives him a better chance of staying healthy? Keep in mind, Kevin Kolb has not rushed back from any injury that he has gotten in Arizona.
 

Mitch

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Why does Kolb care if he gets cut? He gets his guaranteed money in one lump sum, and he is able to hit free agency in a weak year. Matt Moore just got a 2yr, 8mil deal to be a backup. Kolb would pull at least that level of contract, and maybe more if he goes to a team that has QB issues. As far as starting, do you think Kolb is more interested in starting for AZ or collecting his money and going to a team that gives him a better chance of staying healthy? Keep in mind, Kevin Kolb has not rushed back from any injury that he has gotten in Arizona.

I agree with the first part---he's sitting on the guaranteed money.

As for him getting $4M+ this year from someone else, that I wonder about. You may be right, but every team must be aware of the medical red flags and erratic performances. Perhaps an incentive laden deal based on number of starts and level of success could push him over the top of that figure.

The Jets come to mind because they are now going WCO with Marty Mornhinweg as OC, whom is very familiar with KK. Beat writers in NY have been touting KK, should he become an option, for what it's worth.
 

Chopper0080

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I agree with the first part---he's sitting on the guaranteed money.

As for him getting $4M+ this year from someone else, that I wonder about. You may be right, but every team must be aware of the medical red flags and erratic performances. Perhaps an incentive laden deal based on number of starts and level of success could push him over the top of that figure.

The Jets come to mind because they are now going WCO with Marty Mornhinweg as OC, whom is very familiar with KK. Beat writers in NY have been touting KK, should he become an option, for what it's worth.

If Matt Moore gets 4mil per year to backup Tannahill, then Kolb will get at least that somewhere.
 

CardsFan88

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Well backup QB's aren't usually going to get 4 million. Tannehill looked pretty decent as a rookie last year. Sometimes he looked pretty darn good. Then again many have criticized the Dolphins GM so perhaps that is the reason (a seemingly clueless GM).

Of course like any tender, signing a guy for 2 years 8 million is still an amount that can easily be traded. Now I doubt this was a move between GM's to be able to get Moore at a cheaper cap hit with the Dolphins swallowing a small cap hit from the signing bonus in return for a late round pick, but it is possible. Though that is complete and utter speculation. Almost assuredly it is what it looks like, the Dolphins overpaying for a backup.

Personally, given who's out there overall, I wanted Moore/Stanton/Rookie. If Arians wanted Hoyer in the mix, that's okay.

So now that we see a possible tender for Hoyer and Moore apparently off the board, then it would be Stanton/Draft Pick/Hoyer or Jason Campbell.

Draft pick depending on where we want to pick a QB. If it's in the 1st, then that means Geno Smith or perhaps Nassib. If it's 2nd round then it's Manuel, Barkley, Wilson, Jones, or Glennon.

If it's 3rd round; Bray, Scott, Renfree.

Though I would also look at guys like the Vikings Joe Webb if he was available.
 

CardsSunsDbacks

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I don't think the Cards are savvy enough operators to release a guy on an RFA tender at the beginning of the season with the understanding that they don't have to pay him. But maybe after reading about it, they'll realize that they can.

In the event that Hoyer wins a #2 job (he's not going to make the roster as a $2.3M third QB--he's no Brian St. Pierre), it's still throwing $700K away. When was the last time a meaningful player was signed to an RFA tender? If someone's dumb enough to sign a player that completes 55% of his passes to an offer that we don't want to match, more power to 'em.

The guy sat by his phone for two months waiting for it to ring not long ago.
No offense to you, but I feel pretty confident that if you know it than so does the Cards front office..
 

GuernseyCard

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Why does Kolb care if he gets cut? He gets his guaranteed money in one lump sum, and he is able to hit free agency in a weak year. Matt Moore just got a 2yr, 8mil deal to be a backup. Kolb would pull at least that level of contract, and maybe more if he goes to a team that has QB issues. As far as starting, do you think Kolb is more interested in starting for AZ or collecting his money and going to a team that gives him a better chance of staying healthy? Keep in mind, Kevin Kolb has not rushed back from any injury that he has gotten in Arizona.

He's got #30M in the bank off his last two deals, so I don't see $$$ as the prime motivator for a guy who has something to prove and seeking an opportunity to do so.

Yes, I think his best opportunity to fulfill his desire to be a competitive signal caller is in AZ. I don't know what football team with a better line going into 2013, you imagine he'd go to, but, given that you've been pimping Warmack and other O-liners for months, I would have thought you'd consider what the Cards will be putting out there an upgrade on 2013.

Keep in mind, the Doctors decide when you are physically ready to play and there is nothing I've seen in Kolb's makeup that says he's not willing to put his limps out there for punishment.
 
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kerouac9

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He's got #30M in the bank off his last two deals, so I don't see $$$ as the prime motivator for a guy who has something to prove and seeking an opportunity to do so.

Yes, I think his best opportunity to fulfill his desire to be a competitive signal caller is in AZ. I don't know what football team with a better line going into 2013, you imagine he'd go to, but, given that you've been pimping Warmack and other O-liners for months, I would have thought you'd consider what the Cards will be putting out there an upgrade on 2013.

Keep in mind, the Doctors decide when you are physically ready to play and there is nothing I've seen Kolb's makeup that says he's not willing to put his limps out there for punishment.

These guys are professional athletes. Money is always their primary motivator. No one is more attuned to the necessity to make money than a guy who has had to miss major parts of three consecutive seasons.

What "legacy" does Kevin Kolb have to be concerned about that outweigh his ability to make an addition $4-6M this year?
 

GuernseyCard

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These guys are professional athletes. Money is always their primary motivator. No one is more attuned to the necessity to make money than a guy who has had to miss major parts of three consecutive seasons.

What "legacy" does Kevin Kolb have to be concerned about that outweigh his ability to make an addition $4-6M this year?

Why didn't you highlight the $30M he has in the bank?

When I factor that in to the equation, I reach my conclusion, which evidently isn't yours.
 

MoeIsBetter

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Why didn't you highlight the $30M he has in the bank?

When I factor that in to the equation, I reach my conclusion, which evidently isn't yours.
I agree with K9 here. Legacy is something fans talk about. Players talk money. I know people will go "but Tom Brady took a pay cut...". Tom Brady also got the entire deal guaranteed...and his wife still makes 3x his salary. Different circumstances.
 

kerouac9

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Why didn't you highlight the $30M he has in the bank?

When I factor that in to the equation, I reach my conclusion, which evidently isn't yours.

$30M paid out, 40% of which was paid in taxes, another 5% of which went to his agent. Is $15M going to be enough to last him the rest of his life, and his family? Maybe if he can return 18% of that entire capital for the rest of his life, but remember that these guys don't have any marketable skills besides playing football.

When you get $30M in paychecks over three years, it's pretty hard to settle for $2M, especially when you're scheduled to make $11M.

How would you feel if your employer came to you tomorrow demanding an 80% pay cut or you're fired?
 

imaCafan

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$30M paid out, 40% of which was paid in taxes, another 5% of which went to his agent. Is $15M going to be enough to last him the rest of his life, and his family? Maybe if he can return 18% of that entire capital for the rest of his life, but remember that these guys don't have any marketable skills besides playing football.

When you get $30M in paychecks over three years, it's pretty hard to settle for $2M, especially when you're scheduled to make $11M.

How would you feel if your employer came to you tomorrow demanding an 80% pay cut or you're fired?

Honestly, if my boss came to me and said they wanted to cut my pay from $11mil to $2mil I might say no if I had $15mil in the bank or a higher paying job waiting for me. Otherwise I take the $2mil.
 

kerouac9

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Honestly, if my boss came to me and said they wanted to cut my pay from $11mil to $2mil I might say no if I had $15mil in the bank or a higher paying job waiting for me. Otherwise I take the $2mil.

Why should the dollar amount matter? Why not the percentage? If someone asked you to take an 80% pay cut, wouldn't you demand that they release you from your contract?
 

Chopper0080

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I agree with K9 here. Legacy is something fans talk about. Players talk money. I know people will go "but Tom Brady took a pay cut...". Tom Brady also got the entire deal guaranteed...and his wife still makes 3x his salary. Different circumstances.

Yup. NFL fans are more concerned with players proving themselves, legacies, and loyalty than actual players are. The NFL is a business, and for players, that business is about making as much money as they can in the small window they have. There is rarely ever "enough" money.
 

kerouac9

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Yup. NFL fans are more concerned with players proving themselves, legacies, and loyalty than actual players are. The NFL is a business, and for players, that business is about making as much money as they can in the small window they have. There is rarely ever "enough" money.

K9's Least-favorite "Zombie Ideas" on ASFN:

1. Levi Brown is a guard
2. Adrian Wilson should play OLB
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4. Players will play on "incentive-laden" contracts
5. Competition is better than certainty at any position
6. Teams besides the Cardinals let good players reach free agency
 

Chopper0080

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Why should the dollar amount matter? Why not the percentage? If someone asked you to take an 80% pay cut, wouldn't you demand that they release you from your contract?

Especially when you get a $6mil golden parachute and a peer of yours just signed a deal for 4mil per year to be an assistant for your position with another company.

Urban tweeted it today and I believe it. Kevin Kolb will not be on the roster under his current contract.
 

Chopper0080

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K9's Least-favorite "Zombie Ideas" on ASFN:

1. Levi Brown is a guard
2. Adrian Wilson should play OLB
3. Daryl Washington can be an effective ILB at 220
4. Players will play on "incentive-laden" contracts
5. Competition is better than certainty at any position
6. Teams besides the Cardinals let good players reach free agency

You have to have a roster full of really good players for that to be true. I can't say we have ever experienced that.
 

CardsFan88

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It's psychology.

80 percent sounds bad, but 2 mill a season is far more than most people will make in their lives. So I don't think it's really fair that someone lies to themselves about what sort of money 2 million is by using a percentage number to make it seem trivial, especially not when they aren't the GM that controls their fate.

If people can fool themselves into thinking they'd be better off in Kolb's condition to test the market because 2 million looks like a slap in the face, after being given that much money, then such a person is out of touch with reality. I laugh at all athletes take million dollar contracts and act like they've been stiffed and insulted. While Kolb isn't necessarily that guy, simply saying 2 million is 2 million.

So there's the optics angle, where 80 percent sounds bad, but if someone makes 2 mill a season, they are doing alright, at least before the potential hyperinflation.

Also it wasn't 40 percent taxes, not even after the recent tax raises. Some might say, well don't forget social security, but social security only accounts for the first 100k or so, thus by the time that gets to 10 million, it's less than a percent.

Finally this is a guy who has been injured every year and never earned said contract. He was given it on hope, and that hope is gone like a ship caught in a storm within the Bermuda triangle.

I understand what you are saying. It WOULD be hard to take such a cut in theory, ego wise, but in reality he has to know he hasn't earned but a fraction of what he paid.

Even though he legally owes nothing to nobody, morally he should be thankful to the Cards and respect that in fact he's a anchor on this team in terms of taking up cap space while barely doing squat. As Rod Graves would say it, he's taking up the 2nd biggest piece of the pie, and playing what amounts to being the crust of that size.

Besides, anyone that thinks they can earn enough money to survive hyperinflation is being foolish, as if it hits, if you own the entire amount of our GDP, you'd be able to buy a loaf of bread. So either he has enough by far already, or if it hits, there is no way he'll ever have a shot like the rest of us.

Overall the dollar amount matters because it is based on reality, the $$$ buys you something (until it doesn't), a percentage amount doesn't matter. It's the same like saying if you were a dishwasher making 3 bucks an hour and they said you will get an 80 percent raise...so what, 80 percent raise amounts to 2.40 extra which would still be slavery. It's the dollar amount that matters. You don't buy things on percentage.

So what matters is the actual amount he has gotten. Which is a huge sum from both the Eagles and Cardinals. He's literally made more than Michael Jordan per game. Hell he's made more per game than Flacco will with his new 120 mill contract.

The dude is rich, until he isn't, and if he isn't, there's no way the extra 4-6 million will amount to changing that. He's made far more than he had any reason to make based on on field performance, and when we traded for him, giving him the contract was insane.

That's a time where you risk losing him or paying out the nose, so that you don't risk what is more likely with an unproven player already knocked out of a game with a concussion his first start the previous season, that of having a cap albatross like Kolb. It's more important to get a good QB, then be too cute by half and sign an unknown and project him to be a star.

Kolb making 2 mill a season is still a good job. If he feels he can make more and wants to, it's his right, but business wise, it's in the Cards best interest to drastically reduce his cost or cut him.

Does Kolb want to see what he's worth on the open market? It is a risk, he could get a vet minimum deal or 2 million somewhere else. Or does he want to take the cut (if one has even been offered), try to prove something, and avoid moving his family and all the hassle that is associated with that for at least another season. It would also be coming from the team that has made him that rich.

The Dolphins GM that everyone laughs at overpaid for Matt Moore, but at least Moore isn't injured every other game.

With those concussions and rib injury, I'm still of the mindset he'd be better off just hanging them up.
 
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