Brilliant But Shortlived TV Shows

[Chaplin]

I suppose if I truly believed that the people in Deadwood spoke like the characters in the show it might help. Despite the claims of the show's producer I don't believe people spoke like that though.

http://www-csli.stanford.edu/~nunberg/deadwood.html

At the time, swearing wasn't actually anything except maybe rude to the Victorian people of the time (Alma Garrett). Otherwise, it was a perfectly normal thing.

Anyone can say "the occurance of the word **** didn't appear until 1920", because there was no documentation of the way people talked back then. You think Merrick is sitting in his newspaper office writing down how many times Swearengen uses the word ****sucker?

If nobody thinks to document something until a certain time, that doesn't mean it didn't exist before then.

 

[Pariah]

If nobody thinks to document something until a certain time, that doesn't mean it didn't exist before then.

There's plenty of documentation of how people spoke in the 1800's--published newspapers are but one of many sources.

 

[Chaplin]

There's plenty of documentation of how people spoke in the 1800's--published newspapers are but one of many sources.

Published newspapers? You can't honestly think that newspapers are a gauge of how people speak, do you? That doesn't even happen today.

Nobody was going to document how people speak in a town like Deadwood. It just wouldn't happen. And the newspaper would most likely be geared toward the Victorian way of speaking (in order to keep up the illusion that the mining camp was "civilized"), which did not include coarse language.

 

[Pariah]

Published newspapers? You can't honestly think that newspapers are a gauge of how people speak, do you? That doesn't even happen today.

It's one of many gauges, yes. The newspaper might tell you what "acceptable" words were (ie. "gay" meaning "gleeful" as a word used more frequently than today). But, my main point is that there ARE sources beyond newspapers (which you brought up as the definitive source) to catch a glimpse of everyday language use.

 

[Chaplin]

It's one of many gauges, yes. The newspaper might tell you what "acceptable" words were (ie. "gay" meaning "gleeful" as a word used more frequently than today). But, my main point is that there ARE sources beyond newspapers (which you brought up as the definitive source) to catch a glimpse of everyday language use.

Back in the 1870s? In a South Dakota Mining Camp?

 

[Pariah]

Back in the 1870s? In a South Dakota Mining Camp?

In the 1870s in mining camps, yes. I don't know about a specific mining camp in SD, but yeah, in a general sense people document stuff like that even then.

 

[Chaplin]

In the 1870s in mining camps, yes. I don't know about a specific mining camp in SD, but yeah, in a general sense people document stuff like that even then.

I definitely don't agree with that. Assuming Deadwood is historically accurate (other than the speaking, which you dispute), I find it hard to believe that anybody would document that stuff. I'm sure only 10% of the population knew how to read, let alone write accounts of how people spoke.

 

[Pariah]

Assuming Deadwood is historically accurate (other than the speaking, which you dispute),

Actually, I've never seen deadwood and am not actually disputing that it's innaccurate in any way. I'm disputing your claim that we can't know how people spoke 150 years ago.

EDIT: I take that back, I saw the first episode...maybe the second. The swearing didn't stand out to me, though.

 

[Chaplin]

Actually, I've never seen deadwood and am not actually disputing that it's innaccurate in any way. I'm disputing your claim that we can't know how people spoke 150 years ago.

EDIT: I take that back, I saw the first episode...maybe the second. The swearing didn't stand out to me, though.

No, I'm saying that we can't know how people spoke in a South Dakota Mining Town like Deadwood--or any backwoods mining town with virtually no communication with the outside world.

 

[Pariah]

No, I'm saying that we can't know how people spoke in a South Dakota Mining Town like Deadwood--or any backwoods mining town with virtually no communication with the outside world.

And I'm saying we can. That's all.

 

[abomb]

No, I'm saying that we can't know how people spoke in a South Dakota Mining Town like Deadwood--or any backwoods mining town with virtually no communication with the outside world.

Ask 40. He was probably there.

 

[Chaplin]

And I'm saying we can. That's all.

But you have nothing to back that up. The Deadwood Pioneer was the only paper in town back then, and it would be reasonable that the language in that paper would tend to be more towards the Victorian style to show that the town is "sophisticated", which everyone who has seen the show knows is a facade.

Like I said, there would be hardly anyone in that camp who could write, let alone historically document how people spoke at the time. Nobody was concerned about documenting history, they were concerned with striking gold... and that's about it.

 

[Chaplin]

Ask 40. He was probably there.

I would, but I figured that was probably about the time his memory started to go, and his observations wouldn't be accurate.

 

[Pariah]

Chap, I'm not going to take the time to dig up documents and historical records, but you do realize that these mining towns weren't on the moon, right? That people--educated people, not just grunt miners--came through there? That mining wasn't just done by someone hoping to stumble upon gold in the ground, but large companies were also involved? That engineers, be that as they may in the old west, still came in to towns like this, kept records and diaries? That courts existed then with legal records? That there is a mining museum in every state that has rooms full of documentation of daily life in towns just like deadwood from the folks who lived there?

In truth, I don't really care if you believe me or not, but I just didn't want the notion that we have no insight into what life was like 150 years ago--no matter how small the town.

 

[Chaplin]

In truth, I don't really care if you believe me or not, but I just didn't want the notion that we have no insight into what life was like 150 years ago--no matter how small the town.

Maybe you're just choosing to make this a bigger issue than it is subconsciously. We are talking about how people speak, that's all. Court records (of course, a court didn't exist in the small towns back there) aren't going to represent how people speak. Neither are transcripts from telegraph wires. There are no recordings either. You may have something with the diaries thing, but you give these people way too much credit. They were illiterate. And the ones who WERE literate were not the ones that used the words **** and ****sucker. That goes for company engineers and people from the Victorian east who tried to strike it rich.

I'm not saying there is nothing about what life was like 150 years ago--you're putting those words into my mouth. I'm saying there is nothing that documents how these people spoke in everyday conversation. These people, of which 90% were illiterate.

This thread went south in a hurry. Sorry everybody.

 

[Pariah]

Maybe you're just choosing to make this a bigger issue than it is subconsciously. We are talking about how people speak, that's all. Court records (of course, a court didn't exist in the small towns back there) aren't going to represent how people speak. Neither are transcripts from telegraph wires. There are no recordings either. You may have something with the diaries thing, but you give these people way too much credit. They were illiterate. And the ones who WERE literate were not the ones that used the words **** and ****sucker. That goes for company engineers and people from the Victorian east who tried to strike it rich.

I disagree and I'll leave it at that. I dare say that historians with Old West expertise would disagree, too.

 

[Chaplin]

I disagree and I'll leave it at that. I dare say that historians with Old West expertise would disagree, too.

Well, apologies for disagreeing with you, but you don't cite any sort of reference to refute my assertion that small mining towns didn't have people that documented how people spoke. Except that historians would agree with you.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

So abomb, what shows do are we missing?


Edit....

I must add one, and I am completely mad at myself for not thinking of it earlier.

Murder One.

 

[Pariah]

Well, apologies for disagreeing with you, but you don't cite any sort of reference to refute my assertion that small mining towns didn't have people that documented how people spoke. Except that historians would agree with you.

Go to a mining museum. You'll find plenty of reference there.

 

[Mike Olbinski]

For once, someone else besides me arguing with Chaplin

 

[Chaplin]

For once, someone else besides me arguing with Chaplin

Obviously you don't read cheesebeef threads on the Suns board...

 

[Joe Mama]

Well, that didn't take me long. I hijacked a thread and started an argument with Chap.

I don't know what exactly these guys use to tell us what words people were using and how they were using them. I just figure since they are linguistics experts and spend their life studying this stuff they probably know best.

Frankly, I'm stumped trying to come up with a short-lived show I thought was any good that you guys already haven't covered.

Joe

 

[Chaplin]

Misfits of Science

 

[Joe Mama]

Does Crocodile Hunter count?

Joe

 

[Griffin]

Millennium i think run for about three seasons. I really liked the first season, but then the show lost track.