Bulls @ Suns game thread 11-19-17

[pokerface]

yeah... how great was that step we took winning 48 games with Bledsoe/Dragic? That season was 48 pyrhicc victories because it made us believe we were better than we were AND it took us out of the running to get an actual difference maker in the draft.

I mean... what happens when this team as usual can't attract FAs and gets stuck with 15th pick moving forward in your scenario of a playoff run? Do you think the 15th pick is going to move the needle to become a force in the NBA. Isn't that what we ACTUALLY want? A team that can win a freaking title? What you're advocating for is MORE purgatory. How some of you apparently haven't gotten sick of that yet is beyond me.

You don't get out of purgatory unless you have at LEAST two of the best players in the NBA, and more often than not, 3. We have ONE guy who looks like he could be in those ranks right now. We need more and it ain't coming from our GM, who gets abused in trades lately, trading heavily protected picks.

Ok cheese, hypothetical thought...

What if Porzingis wanted out of NY and we could pair him with Booker? I know that's slim but what if some talent could be had for a player/picks combination. I mean we have a ton of picks now...not sure if we can use them all anyhoo.

 

[pokerface]

you're right... I'm sure big name FAs are going to completely ignore how our FO has bashed every player they've traded and take less money here then they could with their own teams.

You're drinking drano if you think FA is going to cure any ills here. This ain't the days of Colangelo being able to attract great talent. We have a crappy product, a reviled owner and a GM who's completely unprofessional, dragging players through the mud.

Yeah we can't totally ignore that.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

You think?

When he gets extended that adds another four or five years.

I think in two seasons the suns will improve significantly even without adding talent. Our youth will mature some by then.

I don't think. That is the fact. He doesn't have to sign an extension

 

[pokerface]

I don't think. That is the fact. He doesn't have to sign an extension

Well...that would cost him a bunch of money wouldn't it? How often does that happen?

 

[Phrazbit]

You think?

When he gets extended that adds another four or five years.

I think in two seasons the suns will improve significantly even without adding talent. Our youth will mature some by then.

Yes, I think even if he has signed a 5 year extension he will want out if we're still in the bottom 3rd of the league.

 

[Hoop Head]

yeah... how great was that step we took winning 48 games with Bledsoe/Dragic? That season was 48 pyrhicc victories because it made us believe we were better than we were AND it took us out of the running to get an actual difference maker in the draft.

I mean... what happens when this team as usual can't attract FAs and gets stuck with 15th pick moving forward in your scenario of a playoff run? Do you think the 15th pick is going to move the needle to become a force in the NBA. Isn't that what we ACTUALLY want? A team that can win a freaking title? What you're advocating for is MORE purgatory. How some of you apparently haven't gotten sick of that yet is beyond me.

You don't get out of purgatory unless you have at LEAST two of the best players in the NBA, and more often than not, 3. We have ONE guy who looks like he could be in those ranks right now. We need more and it ain't coming from our GM, who gets abused in trades lately, trading heavily protected picks.

That season actually got us TJ Warren in the draft, who has been a difference maker. The next season we had while we thought we could compete led us to Booker, who is also a difference maker. Good players can be found throughout the draft, it doesn't have to be a top 5 pick. Of course we've regressed since then but we've been losing players from that 48 win team ever since that year concluded.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The best shot we ever had was when we had a ton of assets and there was a disgruntled superstar we were able to nab. That was Charles Barkley. We had so much depth we could ship out a substar horny, a high draft pick Tim Perry who was just coming into his own, and a young center who was brimming with potential (Andrew Lang). Because we had thunder Dan, mark west, and Barkley was to replace perry it was a perfect scenario.

A modern day version would be a year or two from now we have a talented Booker, hopefully bender, chriss, and Jackson all grow into their roles and we have one or two surprises like reed or peters plus we have all these picks. And maybe, just maybe porzingas or Davis gets fed up and wants out and we pounce. Other than knocking it outta the park with this year’s draft, that’s the optimal alternate scenario.

 

[Hoop Head]

Well...that would cost him a bunch of money wouldn't it? How often does that happen?

We have a player who did that, Monroe, and he's only 27. It's rare but it's not something that doesn't happen. There is also the possibility he asks for a trade after he signs the extension and gets paid. Booker's next contract isn't a lock.

 

[pokerface]

Yes, I think even if he has signed a 5 year extension he will want out if we're still in the bottom 3rd of the league.

This is still years down the road...he'd have to shoot his mouth and look bad.. and still it's not guaranteed he gets dealt.


Too many hypotheticals to worry about it at this stage.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That season actually got us TJ Warren in the draft, who has been a difference maker. The next season we had while we thought we could compete led us to Booker, who is also a difference maker. Good players can be found throughout the draft, it doesn't have to be a top 5 pick. Of course we've regressed since then but we've been losing players from that 48 win team ever since that year concluded.

I have to think the talent level, on average is distinctly different between too 5 picks and 14-17 picks. There are good players to mine in the teens but rare are the Giannis or bookers. Whereas the lebron wades Westbrook’s Durant’s are much more commonly found with higher picks.

 

[Phrazbit]

This is still years down the road...he'd have to shoot his mouth and look bad.. and still it's not guaranteed he gets dealt.


Too many hypotheticals to worry about it at this stage.

There is nothing hypothetical about talented players wanting to leave crappy teams. It happens... all... the... time...

If he has elevated his play to an all-star level then he won't put up with many more seasons of suck.

 

[Hoop Head]

I have to think the talent level, on average is distinctly different between too 5 picks and 14-17 picks. There are good players to mine in the teens but rare are the Giannis or bookers. Whereas the lebron wades Westbrook’s Durant’s are much more commonly found with higher picks.

It's true that better players are found at the top of the draft but the Suns have had a lot of luck selecting players in the late lottery while missing on players high in the draft. Compare Warren, Booker, and even Markieff (who was #13) to Len (#5), Bender (#4), and Jackson (#4). I know Jackson is a rookie but he's not looking as ready as some predicted.

 

[pokerface]

There is nothing hypothetical about talented players wanting to leave crappy teams. It happens... all... the... time...

If he has elevated his play to an all-star level then he won't put up with many more seasons of suck.

And what's your point? Make 21 year old Booker a GM? Clear all moves through him now? He's not LeBron dude.. get a perspective already.

He is under contract and I 'thought' we have the right to match any offer? Also, the suns are the only team that can offer him super max money.

I'm not worried about it. Odds are he's staying. He'd be stupid not to.

 

[Phrazbit]

And what's your point? Make 21 year old Booker a GM? Clear all moves through him now? He's not LeBron dude.. get a perspective already.

He is under contract and I 'thought' we have the right to match any offer? Also, the suns are the only team that can offer him super max money.

I'm not worried about it. Odds are he's staying. He'd be stupid not to.

Ahh yes, the ol "deliberately misconstruing the argument tactic"... your go to move when encountered with an obvious counter point.

There is a big freaking difference between "make Booker the GM" and "don't be deliberately terrible to an extent that it alienates your good players".

But... I know you're highly resistant to rational discourse so I'll take a page from your book:

Ahem... What is you're solution?! Pray for him to get injured? Really classy, hoping our guys go down so we can move up in the draft! Get a grip!

 

[pokerface]

Ahh yes, the ol "deliberately misconstruing the argument tactic"... your go to move when encountered with an obvious counter point.

There is a big freaking difference between "make Booker the GM" and "don't be deliberately terrible to an extent that it alienates your good players".

But... I know you're highly resistant to rational discourse so I'll take a page from your book:

Ahem... What is you're solution?! Pray for him to get injured? Really classy, hoping our guys go down so we can move up in the draft! Get a grip!

Some of you have inferred because we are losing now somehow Booker is in jeapody of leaving "years" down the road. Nothing that happens this season has any bearing on whether Booker stays or not.


I'm saying don't worry about it...there are more important things about this season to think about than that.

 

[elindholm]

The best shot we ever had was when we had a ton of assets and there was a disgruntled superstar we were able to nab. That was Charles Barkley. We had so much depth we could ship out a substar horny, a high draft pick Tim Perry who was just coming into his own, and a young center who was brimming with potential (Andrew Lang). Because we had thunder Dan, mark west, and Barkley was to replace perry it was a perfect scenario.

But the pre-Barkley teams were already winning 50+ games and getting to the WCF (1989, 1990). They were a very good team before the Barkley trade.

The case study to look at is the Nance trade. That was when the team wasn't very good but had one real star. They traded the star for young talent, some of that young talent developed big-time, and they made big FA signings to fill out the ranks.

A modern day version would be a year or two from now we have a talented Booker, hopefully bender, chriss, and Jackson all grow into their roles and we have one or two surprises like reed or peters plus we have all these picks.

The league is a lot different now. Tom Chambers was the first unrestricted free agent in NBA history. Now you get UFAs wherever you look, and they have all sorts of different priorities.

And maybe, just maybe porzingas or Davis gets fed up and wants out and we pounce. Other than knocking it outta the park with this year’s draft, that’s the optimal alternate scenario.

I agree that it's probably the best that the Suns can realistically hope for, but it's still a depressing long shot. The likes of Chriss, Bender, and Jackson may yet develop into good players, but they sure don't have the look of greatness, or even very-good-ness.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

But the pre-Barkley teams were already winning 50+ games and getting to the WCF (1989, 1990). They were a very good team before the Barkley trade.

The case study to look at is the Nance trade. That was when the team wasn't very good but had one real star. They traded the star for young talent, some of that young talent developed big-time, and they made big FA signings to fill out the ranks.



The league is a lot different now. Tom Chambers was the first unrestricted free agent in NBA history. Now you get UFAs wherever you look, and they have all sorts of different priorities.



I agree that it's probably the best that the Suns can realistically hope for, but it's still a depressing long shot. The likes of Chriss, Bender, and Jackson may yet develop into good players, but they sure don't have the look of greatness, or even very-good-ness.

True about the pre-Barkley suns. I’m hoping in a year or two the youth will have developed to the point of us being a playoff team.

I shudder about the nance deal being the analogy because we don’t have an in his prime superstar to trade for youth. Our lone superstar IS our youth. I don’t think we are anothe KJ/Corbin/West/Majerle draft pick type trade again in our lifetime.

And I’m willing to give Jackson a pass until seasons end. Bender a little more leeway considering how young he is and he missed a significant portion of his rookie year. Chriss has me the most concerned and the most baffled about why he starts.